On Purging and Spunding

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mashdar

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I'm just starting to purge kegs with fermentation gas, and couldn't find anything about the effects on increased keg pressure of purging effectiveness. It seems important, so I wanted to share.

TL;DR: Don't try to purge a keg with fermentation gas while the keg is under pressure. Either hook the unpressurized keg to spunding valve output, or turn up the pressure as late as possible to pressurize after purging is pretty much complete.

The not-as-short version (I can elaborate if needed, but I'm writing this on a phone while a 2yo jumps on my head, so this is all I've got for now.): I'm going to assume the numbers from @doug293cz 's post in Keg purging with active fermentation for easy comparison. There are a few caveats at the end*, but they don't massively impact the results, and there's no way around them.

I'm going to assume 1ATM of additional pressure thanks to spunding. This is ~14.7psi. It's a convenient number for the math as the amount of ideal gas in a volume doubles if the pressure doubles from 1atm to 2atm.

The good:
By pressurizing the keg to 1ATM with that nice CO2, your O2 concentration is halved. (The mass of O2 available to damage your beer, sadly, is the same.) So instead of starting at 210,000ppm, we're starting at 105,000ppm. Sweet!

The bad:
Unfortunately, the gas we're diluting from here on has twice the mass of the non-pressurized case. So if a bubble leaving the system and getting replaced by pure CO2 was diluting our old O2 concentration by 0.99999, now we're diluting by 0.999995. Looks small.

The ugly:
Due to the nature of compounding, the effect is huge. If we had 440L to purge a 25L keg pressurized to 1atm*, the result is 26.1ppm instead of 4.8ppb in the unpressurized case. That's almost 5,500x worse!

Conversely, if you purge an unpressurized keg and the use the last 25L of CO2 to pressurize it, you'll end at 13ppb. Much closer to the original case. The headspace after transfer would have 5.2x the base case O2 mass in it, although you could release the pressure post-transfer to get down to 2.6x.

*Caveats. There are some factors not covered/adjusted for above.
  1. The beer itself will contain more CO2 when under pressure. This reduces available purge gas.
  2. The fermenter headspace will contain more CO2 when under pressure. This reduces available purge gas.
  3. 25L seems like an over-estimate for corny keg volume. E.g. if you assume 23L, the base case goes down to 1ppb.
  4. Any sweeping action in the keg will be reduced due to lower velocity in the pressurized case.
  5. The choice of pressure will have huge implications. E.g. spunding at 1/3atm (4.9psi) only results in 78x O2 concentration.
I'm not clear on whether the original analysis considered residual CO2 in beer and fermenter headspace, but spunding would make these factors worse. They are not part of the exponential, so their effect is not huge (maybe x2 final O2 for base case).

Conclusion: The ideal case may be to purge an unpressurized keg from the spunding valve output. Transferring might cause foaming issues, though, so spunding on the keg output at the end of fermentation may be more practical.

Note than making any connections after starting will introduce O2, even if the lines are purged, and unpurged lines would be really bad. (A 1m x 5mm ID tube could add 165ppm of O2 to a purged keg...)
 
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When purging kegs w fermentation gas, I hook outgas hose from top of fermentor to liquid post, and gas post from keg to a line in container of starsan. That way I can monitor fermentation activity the same as if not purging, so am doing non pressurized purging.

For spunding, I rack when there is still some gravity to work out and let beer in kegs carbonate during final yeast activity.

Seems like you are adding pressure fermentation to the equation, which is not a bad thing, but sounds like it makes things more complicated.
 
When purging kegs w fermentation gas, I hook outgas hose from top of fermentor to liquid post, and gas post from keg to a line in container of starsan. That way I can monitor fermentation activity the same as if not purging, so am doing non pressurized purging.

For spunding, I rack when there is still some gravity to work out and let beer in kegs carbonate during final yeast activity.

Seems like you are adding pressure fermentation to the equation, which is not a bad thing, but sounds like it makes things more complicated.
Yes, I supposed that is the nut of it - pressure fermenting while purging a keg is the issue. If just spunding near end of fermentation it's much less of an issue.
 
The ideal case may be to purge an unpressurized keg from the spunding valve output. Transferring might cause foaming issues, though, so spunding on the keg output at the end of fermentation may be more practical.
Can't you do both? Start with spunding valves on both the FV and the keg. FV valve at 15 psi and keg valve wide open. Then set keg valve to 15 psi near the end of fermentation.
 
When purging kegs w fermentation gas, I hook outgas hose from top of fermentor to liquid post, and gas post from keg to a line in container of starsan. That way I can monitor fermentation activity the same as if not purging, so am doing non pressurized purging.

For spunding, I rack when there is still some gravity to work out and let beer in kegs carbonate during final yeast activity.

Seems like you are adding pressure fermentation to the equation, which is not a bad thing, but sounds like it makes things more complicated.
If you spund to carbonate, you are switching from an unpressurized fermentation to a pressure fermentation.

Brew on :mug:
 
Can't you do both? Start with spunding valves on both the FV and the keg. FV valve at 15 psi and keg valve wide open. Then set keg valve to 15 psi near the end of fermentation.
If the fermentor valve is wide open then the pressure from the purged keg would push back into the fermentor. The fermentor would need some pressure to stop from it back charging.

edit: opps never mind
 
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If the fermentor valve is wide open then the pressure from the purged keg would push back into the fermentor. The fermentor would need some pressure to stop from it back charging.
He's proposing the keg valve being open, and fermentor valve at 15psi, so fermentor would be under pressure whilst the keg is not. You'd probably want a blowoff from the keg, in case the keg valve can "breathe" as the refrigeration cycles (or room temp varies, etc)
 
I'm just starting to purge kegs with fermentation gas, and couldn't find anything about the effects on increased keg pressure of purging effectiveness. It seems important, so I wanted to share.

TL;DR: Don't try to purge a keg with fermentation gas while the keg is under pressure. Either hook the unpressurized keg to spunding valve output, or turn up the pressure as late as possible to pressurize after purging is pretty much complete.

The not-as-short version (I can elaborate if needed, but I'm writing this on a phone while a 2yo jumps on my head, so this is all I've got for now.): I'm going to assume the numbers from @doug293cz 's post in Keg purging with active fermentation for easy comparison. There are a few caveats at the end*, but they don't massively impact the results, and there's no way around them.

I'm going to assume 1ATM of additional pressure thanks to spunding. This is ~14.7psi. It's a convenient number for the math as the amount of ideal gas in a volume doubles if the pressure doubles from 1atm to 2atm.

The good:
By pressurizing the keg to 1ATM with that nice CO2, your O2 concentration is halved. (The mass of O2 available to damage your beer, sadly, is the same.) So instead of starting at 210,000ppm, we're starting at 105,000ppm. Sweet!

The bad:
Unfortunately, the gas we're diluting from here on has twice the mass of the non-pressurized case. So if a bubble leaving the system and getting replaced by pure CO2 was diluting our old O2 concentration by 0.99999, now we're diluting by 0.999995. Looks small.

The ugly:
Due to the nature of compounding, the effect is huge. If we had 440L to purge a 25L keg pressurized to 1atm*, the result is 26.1ppm instead of 4.8ppb in the unpressurized case. That's almost 5,500x worse!

Conversely, if you purge an unpressurized keg and the use the last 25L of CO2 to pressurize it, you'll end at 13ppb. Much closer to the original case. The headspace after transfer would have 5.2x the base case O2 mass in it, although you could release the pressure post-transfer to get down to 2.6x.

*Caveats. There are some factors not covered/adjusted for above.
  1. The beer itself will contain more CO2 when under pressure. This reduces available purge gas.
  2. The fermenter headspace will contain more CO2 when under pressure. This reduces available purge gas.
  3. 25L seems like an over-estimate for corny keg volume. E.g. if you assume 23L, the base case goes down to 1ppb.
  4. Any sweeping action in the keg will be reduced due to lower velocity in the pressurized case.
  5. The choice of pressure will have huge implications. E.g. spunding at 1/3atm (4.9psi) only results in 78x O2 concentration.
I'm not clear on whether the original analysis considered residual CO2 in beer and fermenter headspace, but spunding would make these factors worse. They are not part of the exponential, so their effect is not huge (maybe x2 final O2 for base case).

Conclusion: The ideal case may be to purge an unpressurized keg from the spunding valve output. Transferring might cause foaming issues, though, so spunding on the keg output at the end of fermentation may be more practical.

Note than making any connections after starting will introduce O2, even if the lines are purged, and unpurged lines would be really bad. (A 1m x 5mm ID tube could add 165ppm of O2 to a purged keg...)


Here's an approach (that might work for you) that I use to make sure that I don't come up short, especially if I want to purge kegs with a low gravity ferment i.e. under 1.040. I sanitize the keg and almost fill it full of water (I put together a tee fitting under my sink with a beverage disconnect for easy, but slow hands free filling). I add 1.57 grams of Sodium Metabisulfite, put on the lid and fill it too 99%. The SMB is also a sanitizer at this point and the water has almost no oxygen in it now.

Once actively purging, from the outlet of the fermenter blowtie spunding valve, I attach it to the gas in on the keg, the beverage out line is in an ale pail with enough sanitizer to keep it in a standard blow off configuration. As the ferment starts to empty the keg it is at extremely low levels of oxygen and the low gravity ferment will easily yield a very, very low oxygen level in the keg.

The math for the SMB is pretty easy. It takes 5ppm SMB to remove 1 ppm 0². Water from the tap might be 12 ppm"ish", but I shoot high.

21 liters in the keg
15 ppm 0² removal (15×5=75 ppm)

21 x 75 ÷ 1000 = 1.57 grams SMB needed

SMB is dirt cheap and this typically will cost 15 mins time and literally a few pennies to do. Once the keg is empty, you can adjust the pressure on the keg spunding valve to match your fermenter or rearrange the spunding configuration for the best closed xfer option. Hopefully this gives you some other options for your setup.
 
Update: I spunded a beer to 15psi, hooked a keg to the output, and spunded that to 2psi.

Went to do a closed gravity transfer. Bloops. The drop in pressure when I connected gas-gas blew up the yeast cake.

It looked like full primary fermentation all over again. It was such a mess, I raised the keg and transferred everything back into the fermenter. I guess I'm cold crashing for a few days before I try again.

Lesson learned: receiving keg can't be way lower pressure than the source. I have to ponder what this means for natural carb vs ferm gas purge.
 
The math for the SMB is pretty easy. It takes 5ppm SMB to remove 1 ppm 0². Water from the tap might be 12 ppm"ish", but I shoot high.

21 liters in the keg
15 ppm 0² removal (15×5=75 ppm)

21 x 75 ÷ 1000 = 1.57 grams SMB needed
I like this idea. It's a really simple solution to purging kegs. I usually fill a keg with a Starsan solution and and then purge the keg with co2. The problem lies in the left over Starsan in the keg has dissolved o2 in it. It's not much oxygen, but the closer I can get to zero the better.

I like using water with SMB or PMB but I'm having trouble understanding the math you used to calculate the dose. I can't find any solid information about how much free SO2 is produced per tablet. A 550mg tablet of SMB does not produce 550 ppm per liter of free SO2, most of the information I found shows it produces @ 260ppm per liter or less of free SO4. Am I missing something? I want to use this method, but I want to get the dosage correct.
 
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I like this idea. It's a really simple solution to purging kegs. I usually fill a keg with a Starsan solution and and then purge the keg with co2. The problem lies in the left over Starsan in the keg has dissolved o2 in it. It's not much oxygen, but the closer I can get to zero the better.

I like using water with SMB or PMB but I'm having trouble understanding the math you used to calculate the dose. I can't find any solid information about how much free SO2 is produced per tablet. A 550mg tablet of SMB does not produce 550 ppm per liter of free SO2, most of the information I found shows it produces @ 260ppm per liter or less of free SO4. Am I missing something? I want to use this method, but I want to get the dosage correct.

I recommend buying SMB powder on Amazon, duda diesel sells a pound for $8. I store it in Mason jars as it can degrade in less than ideal storage conditions. For calculations using smb Camden Tablets divide the result for the powder above by .75 as 25% of the tablet isn't smb.

1.57 ÷ 0.75 = 2.09 grams

Somewhere in the low oxygen forum on here Derek (can't remember his forum handle) layed out all the math for the oxygen scavenging abilities and the mineral contributions for smb. Perhaps someone with awesome google fu can find it so we can point to the source information.
 
The problem lies in the left over Starsan in the keg has dissolved o2 in it.
A couple of ounces of starsan sitting under 5 gallons of fermentation gas for a week or more isn't going to have much dissolved O2 left. If you're purging with CO2 from a cylinder then you're adding up to 30 ppm of O2 to the keg anyway.
 
A couple of ounces of starsan sitting under 5 gallons of fermentation gas for a week or more isn't going to have much dissolved O2 left. If you're purging with CO2 from a cylinder then you're adding up to 30 ppm of O2 to the keg anyway.
30ppm is a massive amount of oxygen. I know even beverage grade has impurities in it, but not all of it is oxygen. Most of the impurity comes from water. The goal is to keg with less than 50ppb. The amount of water left behind contributes to 10-15ppb. If this can be reduced or even eliminated it can help hit those numbers. Spunding can decrease the amount of oxygen, but forced carbonating with CO2 should still be below 100ppb.
 
I know even beverage grade has impurities in it, but not all of it is oxygen.
Yeah I know. That's why I said "up to." This has been argued pretty extensively in several threads.
The amount of water left behind contributes to 10-15ppb.
Source?

One of these days I'm going to waste a purged keg and open it up to see how much liquid is left after a full fermentation's worth of gas has streamed through it. I'm guessing that most of the leftover starsan will have evaporated.
 
I just watched a Kegland video where Kee referenced how he used meta in this function, and ended up being a disaster for fermentation. Residual solution in keg neutralized the dissolved O2 in his wort and then the yeast suffered.

EDIT: Sorry, those actually proves the point here. The anecdote referred to sanitizing a "fermentor", which would be bad due to stripping the Oxygen. But in the serving keg, this is exactly the point. My bad.
 
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Yeah I know. That's why I said "up to." This has been argued pretty extensively in several threads.
I know, but it's still discouraging.
Assuming 2 ounces (56.8ml) of Starsan are left in the keg and expecting typical oxygen levels of tap water at 4ppm:

56.8ml x .000004 = .0002272ml of oxygen. .0002272/19000ml = 11.9578947 ppb added to the keg.

Hopefully my math is correct. If it is, then it takes very little water to add a good amount of oxygen to a 5 gallon keg of beer.

Here's a Beersmith podcast that goes in to some detail.

https://beersmith.com/blog/2023/12/...er-with-colin-kaminski-beersmith-podcast-293/
 
2 ounces? That would be hella sloppy work, or using a poorly located or cut dip tube.
When I've finished sanitizing my kegs there is less than a teaspoon of Star San left in the keg.

That's .1666 ounces, so basically under 1 ppb O2 contribution using the formula above.
With the 1 teaspoon of dissolved Ascorbic Acid to scrub that out I can live with that :)

Cheers!
 
ppm/ppb is typically by mass, not volume, but I guess if you replace "ml" with "g" the values wouldn't change much.

OTOH since beer and water are ~700x more dense than air, 1 ppm in the CO2 gas is closer to 1.4ppb disolved in beer. So apples and oranges. (edit: but clearly density of CO2 is higher than air, and is denser at low temperature and increased pressure. And would need to assess headspace plus any absorbed O2. So YMMV wildly.)
 
After the fill with starsan, purge with ferment and spund to pressurise both fermenter and keg.
Invert keg and orient so the residual liquid can be blown out of prv.
I do use Sankey kegs so I'm not sure how easy this is with a Corny. I've never played with one.
Come closed transfer time I closed inject ascorbic acid mixed with boiled and cooled water.
Can't see there is much else you can do to reduce oxygen contamination.
 
I know, but it's still discouraging.

Assuming 2 ounces (56.8ml) of Starsan are left in the keg and expecting typical oxygen levels of tap water at 4ppm:

56.8ml x .000004 = .0002272ml of oxygen. .0002272/19000ml = 11.9578947 ppb added to the keg.

Hopefully my math is correct. If it is, then it takes very little water to add a good amount of oxygen to a 5 gallon keg of beer.

Here's a Beersmith podcast that goes in to some detail.

https://beersmith.com/blog/2023/12/...er-with-colin-kaminski-beersmith-podcast-293/
If you wait long enough, that dissolved O2 in the starsan will leave solution into the mostly-CO2 gas. Then, if you fill 19L of 20L keg capacity, you've eliminated 95% of that O2.

I don't know how long is long enough, but I imagine a day would be pretty good given the high surface area to volume ratio.

If you're worried about O2 in your starsan, maybe purge a day ahead. Bonus points if you store the keg on its side to further increase surface area of the liquid.
 
If you wait long enough, that dissolved O2 in the starsan will leave solution into the mostly-CO2 gas. Then, if you fill 19L of 20L keg capacity, you've eliminated 95% of that O2.

I don't know how long is long enough, but I imagine a day would be pretty good given the high surface area to volume ratio.

If you're worried about O2 in your starsan, maybe purge a day ahead. Bonus points if you store the keg on its side to further increase surface area of the liquid.
I think you should have a look at Henrys law. Then the numbers of ppm in the remaining litre ( 5%) are still enormous.
 
I think you should have a look at Henrys law. Then the numbers of ppm in the remaining litre ( 5%) are still enormous.
A liter of starsan left in the keg? (Are we talking about the same thing?)

Correct me if I missed something, but here's my thinking.

60ml (~2oz) starsan is conservative in my experience. Even assuming a starting concentration of 12ppm, thats ~720ug (12e-6 * 60ml * 1g/ml) of O2. A typical 5gal volume of STP air will contain about 5g (0.21 * 19,000ml * 0.001293g/ml) of O2. That's about 7000x the O2 the fluid has. At STP I'm lead to believe O2 solubility is ~8ppm.

That means the equilibrium point is going to be very close to 0. (Just assuming Henry/IGL it's less than 2ppb.)

On top of that, you're diluting 60ml with 19l of beer. So a starting point of 2ppb is diluted to ~6ppt, basically 0.

Even if you start with 1L of 12ppm O2 star san, I'm getting a final diluted concentration ~ 1.5ppb. But approaching equilibrium for 1l will take a lot longer due to surface:volume ratio.

edit: Oh or do you mean a liter of headspace? That makes sense You could purge that; You're right that it will have all of that O2 that was off gased. I guess purging that is its own math problem...

edit2: Hmm. On second thought, still not as bad as you'd think. If the 1L headspace has 5% of that 720ug, diluted in 19l of beer, that's only 2ppb without any attempt at purging. The purity of your CO2 is a much bigger concern, IMO, and still a big reason for using fermentation gas.
 
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I think @doug293cz explains the numbers in this post.
Watch this space. Imma write a epic response that will leave you amazed and enthused :ban: (or dazed and confused :confused:, or just whatever ... :rolleyes: :goat:)

Stay tuned

Brew on :mug:

============================================================================

Ok, you've waited long enough, here is my analysis of the OP's questions. You be the judge, is it epic or not? Worth the wait, or a big let down?

Pull up your waders, it's gonna get deep here. You might want to take this on while drinking coffee rather than beer. :D

============================================================================

Let's break this down into manageable pieces, and then look at them one at a time.

First question: Does the continuous flow of CO2 from the fermenter create any different dilution kinetics than the typical multiple cycles of pressurize then vent?

When we pressurize the headspace of a keg we produce a burst of CO2 gas originating at the gas in tube. This burst creates turbulence in the headspace which very effectively mixes the starting headspace gas and the added CO2. We can safely assume that the gases are well mixed prior to the vent cycle. This means we can use static, or equilibrium, math to determine the amount of dilution. We want to know solute concentration in a solution when additional diluent is added to a solution. In our case the solution is a gas solution, the solute is oxygen (O2), and the diluent is CO2. For one dilution (purge) cycle, the change in solute concentration is:
New_Conc = Prev_Conc * Starting_Amount / (Starting_Amount + Diluent_Amount)​
When working with gases in fixed volume vessels, the "amount" of gas is proportional to the absolute pressure (psia), and absolute pressure equals gauge pressure (psig) plus atmospheric pressure (14.695 psia at sea level.) This follows from the universal gas law: PV = nRT. Thus the original "amount" of gas is 14.7 psia, and the diluent amount of gas is the pressure that we add to the keg, so the dilution per cycle becomes:
New_O2_Conc = Prev_O2_Conc * 14.7 psia / (14.7 psia + Purge_Pressure)​
After we pressurize for the purge, we still have the same amount of O2 in the headspace that we started with, but the concentration is lower. Once we vent the headspace, the pressure drops back to 14.7 psia, and we have less total gas than we had before. Venting doesn't change the O2 concentration in the headspace, but since it does reduce the total amount of gas in the headspace, the amount of O2 goes down as well. The pressurize part of the purge cycle reduces the O2 concentration in the gas mix, and the venting then reduces the O2 amount. The effect of additional purge cycles is multiplicative, so the formula for multiple purge cycles is:
Final_O2_Conc = Orig_O2_Conc * (14.7 / (14.7 + Purge_Pressure)) ^ N​
Where N = number of purge cycles​
The O2 concentration in air is 21% or 210,000 ppm. If we assume that the keg headspace starts out as air, then we can calculate and plot the resultant headspace O2 concentration for various numbers of purge cycles at different pressures.

View attachment 402029

View attachment 402030

So, what happens if instead of doing pressurize/vent cycles, we flow CO2 into a vessel that originally contains air? Does the flow improve the dilution and removal efficiency of O2 compared to the cyclic process? We can argue that if the CO2 inflow is fast enough that CO2 comes in faster than it can mix with the air, then it could form a sort of gas piston that would push air ahead of it towards the vent, and that this would push out more O2 per volume of CO2 than if complete mixing of incoming CO2 and existing gas occurred (as it does in the pressurize/vent case.)

The best case for non-mixing of CO2 and headspace would be if there were absolutely no internal "air" currents, such that the only mixing of CO2 with headspace gas would be via diffusion. So the question comes down to: Is the linear CO2 flow rate faster than the diffusion velocity of CO2 in air? If the CO2 flow rate were much faster than diffusion, then mixing would be limited, and continuous flow would be more efficient than purge/vent. If CO2 flow rate were much slower than diffusion, then gases would be mostly mixed, and continuous flow would not be any more efficient than pressurize/vent. If the flow rate and diffusion rates were of the same order of magnitude, then there would be significant, but not complete, mixing, making this the most complex scenario to analyze.

To start we need to get an estimate of the diffusion velocity of CO2 in air. If we limit our analysis to one dimensional flow (say from bottom to top of a keg, uniform velocity across the width), things will be much simpler, but still valid. Fick's first law of diffusion is (ref: Diffusion - Wikipedia):
Flux = -D * (𝚫Conc / 𝚫Dist)​
Where Flux is in mass/area-time,​
D is the diffusion coefficient, and​
𝚫Conc / 𝚫Dist is the concentration gradient​
If we divide Flux [mass/area-time] by density [mass/volume] we get linear velocity [dist/time] which is what we are looking for.

The diffusion coefficient for CO2 in air is about 0.15 cm^2/sec (ref: Oxygen Diffusion/Air - Cornell Composting) Now if we make some assumptions about gradients we might encounter, we can estimate a linear CO2 flow rate due to diffusion. We will use approximate numbers for simplicity, since we are only looking for order of magnitude estimates of velocity.

A corny keg has a volume of about 20 L or 20,000 cm^3, and a height of about 55 cm, leaving a cross sectional area of about 20,000 cm^3 / 55 cm = 364 cm^2. The density of CO2 at STP is about 2 g/L or 0.002 g/cm^3 (ref: Gases - Densities.) If we assume 2.5 cm of pure CO2 at the bottom of the keg, and 2.5 cm of air at the top of the keg, and a uniform concentration gradient from the bottom to the top, the CO2 gradient becomes:
𝚫Conc / 𝚫Dist = (0 - 0.002 g/cm^3) / 50 cm = -4.0e-5 g/cm^4​
The CO2 flux becomes:
Flux = -D * (𝚫Conc / 𝚫Dist) = -0.15 cm^2/sec * (-4.0e-5 g/cm^4) = 6.0e-6 g/cm^2-sec​
And finally the linear velocity of CO2 due to diffusion is:
CO2_Diffusion_Velosity = CO2_Flux / CO2_Density = 6.0e-6 g/cm^2-sec / 0.002 g/cm^3 = 0.003 cm/sec​
Next we need to determine the linear flow velocity of CO2 being fed through a keg from an active fermentation.

The reaction for fermentation of maltose is:
Maltose + H2O --> 2 Dextrose --> 4 Ethanol + 4 CO2​
Maltose has a molecular weight of 342.30 g/mol and CO2 has a molecular weight of 44.01 g/mol, so each gram of maltose fermented generates 4 * 44.01 / 342.3 = 0.5143 gram of CO2. So, if we determine how much sugar we ferment over what period of time, we can calculate how much CO2 we created and calculate an average flow rate over the cross section of a keg.

Let's work an example assuming 20 L of wort with an OG of 1.050 that achieves 80% apparent attenuation over a four day fermentation. First we have to determine how much sugar we started with. An SG of 1.050 is equivalent to 12.39°Plato, or 12.39% sugar by weight. To convert SG to plato use the following formula (ref: Brix - Wikipedia):
°Plato = -616.868 + 1111.14 * SG - 630.272 * SG^2 + 135.9975 * SG^3 @ 20°C​
Water at 20°C has a density of 0.9982 kg/L, so the weight of 20 L of wort @ 1.050 is:
20 L * 1.050 * 0.9982 kg/L = 20.96 kg​
This wort is 12.39% sugar by weight, so the weight of sugar is 2.597 kg. At 80% apparent attenuation, this beer would have an FG of 1.010, or 2.561°Plato. Since the presence of alcohol affects the SG the actual attenuation of the beer is lower (the final °Plato is higher), we must correct the final °Plato using the Balling approximation (ref: https://byo.com/hops/item/408-calcu...ion-extract-and-calories-advanced-homebrewing):
Real_Final_°P = Apparent_Final_°P * 0.8114 + Original_°P * 0.1886​
And, plugging in the numbers for our example:
Real_Final_°P = 2.561 * 0.8114 + 12.39 * 0.1886 = 4.415°P​
Thus the finished beer contains 4.415% by weight of sugar, which works out to:
Final_Sugar_Weight = 20 L * 1.010 * 0.9982 kg/L * 0.04415 = 0.890 kg​
The total sugar fermented works out to:
Fermented_Sugar_Weight = 2.597 kg - 0.890 kg = 1.707 kg​
And the total weight of CO2 created works out to:
CO2_Weight_Created = 1.707 kg_Maltose * 0.5143 kg_CO2/kg_Maltose = 0.878 kg or 878 g of CO2​
Since CO2 has a density of about 2 g/L, we created about 439 L or 439,000 cm^3 of CO2.

If we push our CO2 through the keg at a constant rate over a four day fermentation, the flow rate of the CO2 over the 364 cm^2 cross section of the keg works out to:
CO2_Velocity = 439000 cm^3 / (4 days * 24 hr/day * 3600 sec/hr * 364 cm^2) = 0.0035 cm/sec​
Damn, that works out almost the same as our diffusion velocity of 0.003 cm/sec. So, we are in the complex, hard (i.e. infeasible) to analyze regime of relative flow rates. So, what do we do now? Well, we punt, and do the worst case analysis which would assume that we get no O2 removal assist from the sweeping action of the bulk CO2 flow. As a result of doing this our residual O2 levels will be less than we calculate, so we will have a built in safety factor.

So, the answer to our first question is: Yes, the bulk CO2 flow probably helps sweep out more O2 than do simple pressurize/vent cycles, but the analysis is too difficult, so we'll just ignore the flow sweep effect, and end up with a pessimistic estimate of our final purged keg O2 levels (i.e. things will actually be better than the calculations show.)

Second question: What's the worst case O2 levels left in a keg purged with the output of an active fermentation?

So, just how do we attack a continuous slow purge flow analytically? Assume a tube runs from the fermenter to the keg liquid post, and an airlock is fitted to the keg gas post. Then every time the airlock bubbles you lose a small volume of the current gas mix (which we are assuming is homogeneous) from the keg and fermenter headspace. Let's call this volume "𝚫V", and the total volume of the fermenter headspace, keg, tube, etc. "V". Furthermore, let's call the current concentration of O2 in V "C". We then have the following:
Total O2 in V before bubble = C * V​
O2 lost to bubble = C * 𝚫V​
Total O2 in V after bubble = C (V - 𝚫V)​
Concentration of O2 in V after bubble = C * (V - 𝚫V) / V​
If C[0] is the concentration of O2 initially, then after "N" bubbles, the current concentration of O2 is:
C = C[0] * ((V - 𝚫V) / V)^N​
For V = 25 L and 𝚫V = 0.0001 L (0.1 mL), (V - 𝚫V) / V = 0.9999960. We're not getting much purging action per bubble; this doesn't look very promising yet.

So, where will we end up at the end of the example fermentation above? Well, we generate 439 L of CO2 from fermentation, and if we divide that into 0.0001 L bubbles, we produce a total of 4,390,000 bubbles. If we plug that into our formula above, and start with 210,000 ppm of O2 in V, then we have:
Final O2 Conc = 210000 ppm * ((25 L - 0.0001 L) / 25 L)^4390000 = 0.005 ppm​
Believe it or not, we reduce the O2 concentration from 21% by volume to 5 parts per billion by volume! :smack: :ban: :ban: :ban: Talk about the power of compounding!

We can only conclude that using the output of a reasonable size fermentation can very effectively purge a keg of O2.

Coming next, the spreadsheet to allow you to do your own calculations.

Brew on :mug:
 
Are we talking about the same thing?
At this point, I really have no idea. Who's purging an empty keg and worrying about O2 in the few mL of starsan that they can't get out before hooking it up? Who's purging a full keg and worrying about the O2 in the few ounces that they can't push out?
 
At this point, I really have no idea. Who's purging an empty keg and worrying about O2 in the few mL of starsan that they can't get out before hooking it up? Who's purging a full keg and worrying about the O2 in the few ounces that they can't push out?
Right, I've basically satisfied myself that:
a) All of the methods of purging are fine if your CO2 is good,
b) Residual liquid with dissolved O2 is not much of an issue, and you can belts-and-suspender by waiting a day to let it degas if you want,
c) O2 contamination of commercial CO2 is the biggest source of concern. (If carbonating by adding 1vol, 0.01% O2 contamination will add ~200ppb O2 to the beer.)

edit: But the original point of the thread was to point out that pressurizing an air-filled keg during purge significantly reduces the effectiveness of purging. Whether it matters depends on your beer volume, headspace, and O2 target.
 
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