T58 vs BE256

[odie]

What would y'all say is the difference? What type Belgians would you use each for? I've seen posts that imply they are not quite what Fermentis labels them as for...but as always, your results might vary

I've used T-58 for dubbel, tripel and quad. But would BE256 serve me better?

Would either be ok for a saison? Or neither?

 

[AlexKay]

T58 is too strong-tasting for me. I know this isn’t what you asked, but Lallemand Abbaye is my favorite dry Belgian for 1/2/3/4.

 

[odie]

That's fine. I've been using their Belle Saison. It's a good brand.

"too strong tasting" ??? how so, in what way, and in what beer? Without context it doesn't mean much.

 

[AlexKay]

Lots and lots of esters and phenols from the fermentation. I might just be sensitive; I know other folks on the forum like T-58. I did a split batch of a tripel with T-58 and Abbaye, and for the T-58 batch, I couldn’t really enjoy the Pilsner malt under the yeast.

 

[Dr_Jeff]

I did a Belgian white and a Quad with T-58 and felt that both came out great.

 

[dmtaylor]

Worlds of difference.

T-58 tastes like apple and attenuates to roughly 75%.

BE-256 tastes like banana, gum, and pineapple, with very high 93% attenuation.

Use the one you think you'll prefer.

Cheers.

 

[Dr_Jeff]

We did not get any apple in either beer that I could discern.

Although the Quad was in excess of 13%, a glass of it would put a thumping on you, lol.

 

[bionicbelly]

I have not used 256 yet, but I've made a saison with T-58 that came out pretty good after a few months in the cellar. I also made a wit with it that I did not care for.

 

[odie]

T-58 tastes like apple and attenuates to roughly 75%.

Was not aware of the attenuation. I do enjoy "mouthfeel" in my heavier beers. The residual flavors of the candi syrups and honey that I use.

I guess the 256 would take a lot of that out?

 

[dmtaylor]

Was not aware of the attenuation. I do enjoy "mouthfeel" in my heavier beers. The residual flavors of the candi syrups and honey that I use.

I guess the 256 would take a lot of that out?

I have not tasted many examples of either one of these yeasts yet, but... yeah that would be a reasonable guess.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Would either be ok for a saison? Or neither?

As far as dry yeasts for a Saison, BE-134 and Belle Saison seem to be the few I hear mentioned. I would be curious if there are other candidates. With just one batch of experience, Belle Saison does not have near the complexity that I want in a Saison. BE-134 is on my list to try out soon.

I have not tried T-58 or BE-256. The sheet from @dmtaylor says that BE-256 is the same as M41 Belgian Ale (and T-58 seems pretty unique). I recently kegged a Blond split with WB-06 and Lallemand Abbaye. The Abbaye is a wonderful beer with a restrained but present yeast character (what I was aiming for in a Blond). As of now, the WB-06 side has a strong tart apple and bubble gum combo that is not really doing it for me.

While Lallemand Abbaye does not seem very Saison-ish, it might be the same strain as M29 French Saison.

 

[AlexKay]

I thought Abbaye was the Chimay strain … could that be right?

 

[dmtaylor]

I thought Abbaye was the Chimay strain … could that be right?

Likely, yes.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

I thought Abbaye was the Chimay strain … could that be right?

Dave's data has Lallemand Abbaye, M29 French Saison, WLP500 Trappist Ale, and 1214 Belgian Ale as the same strain. The term "French Saison" seems to be the most abused yeast label. It seems that any yeast with some Belgian traits is open for being labeled a French Saison.

 

[Protos]

I tried them all (BE134, T58, M29, M31, M41, M47, Belle, Abbaye). The only dry Belgian yeast from the three manufacturers I haven't tried is BE256. Each is very different, even though some of them are supposed to be repacked versions of others.
I don't think T58 is good for a Saison: that style needs very high attenuation, and T58 isn't a superattenuator.
I use T58 exclusively for Belgian Blondes: sweet, heavy, fruity, very lightly hopped blondes of 6-7% ABV. Didn't really like it in any other style, although I've tried to use it in many.
I think, T58 is a very specific yeast, not like any other and it's a kind of acquired taste, but when you acquire the taste, you get to love it. A T58 Blond is a staple in my cellar, no such thing as not having a batch of it at any time.

 

[Protos]

While Lallemand Abbaye does not seem very Saison-ish, it might be the same strain as M29 French Saison.

Flavourwise, Lal Abbaye is rather a variation of M47. Not identical, but much closer to M47 than to M29.

 

[dmtaylor]

I think M29 may be Belle Saison. I no longer have it linked to Abbaye.

 

[Protos]

Yes, in my experience Belle Saison is very close to M29 too. Closer than BE134, I think. Same strong phenolic note as in M29 but noticeably fruitier and more acidic. BE134 is also more acidic than M29 but has a different phenolic profile. Even if M29 is indeed a repacked Belle, it's been altered in some way I suppose

 

[JTOVERMOHLE]

I just got some BE-256 and will be pairing it with 2/3 pilsner and 1/3 abbey malt and a 30 minute Horizon Hop addition to 15-20 IBU. Hope to get to it next week. I'll be fermenting at the higher end of the range (i think) 65-68 degrees. Wouldn't be mad if if threw some banana, but I think that would come out more on the lower end of the ferm range. Never used 256, but imma give it a shot!

 

[odie]

T-58 took my tripel to 10.15 but my quad stopped at 8.4 ???

tripel had 14# grain but 1# candi and 2# honey on top.

quad had 17# grain but only 1# candi and 1/2# dk sugar.

both are tasty.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Yes, in my experience Belle Saison is very close to M29 too. Closer than BE134, I think. Same strong phenolic note as in M29 but noticeably fruitier and more acidic.

No "close" about it, they're the same, the only difference AIUI is in the packing.

Yvan De Baets of de la Senne talked a bit about the origins of saison yeast in this webcast :
https://www.crowdcast.io/e/saison-ale-myths-yvan-baets/register
I can't remember exactly what he said offhand, but it was along the lines of "there's only three "saison" yeasts", and since Thiriez got theirs from the same university yeastbank as one of the others, there's effectively only two, and the whole concept of "French" saison yeasts is pretty much nonsense. Well worth a listen if you've got time.

 

[Protos]

they're the same

Theoretically and genetically, yes. In the field, not so much. The two yeasts give slightly but noticeably different flavour, Belle being a tad fruitier and M29 a bit more phenolic. Mangrove's art of blending? Maybe. Adding enzymes or whatever? Why not. I don't know exactly why, but in the fermenter they are different (Belle being better in my opinion), although interchangeable.

I've brewed with M29 for long and tried Belle for the first time just recently in my house Rye Saison recipe I'd brewed before with M29. I expected (from dmtaylor's table) it to taste exactly like my true and proven M29 Saison, but it came out quite different: fruitier and tangier. The subsequent batches with different grists retained that peculiar Belle character. That's my empirical experience, at least.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

I tried them all (BE134, T58, M29, M31, M41, M47, Belle, Abbaye). The only dry Belgian yeast from the three manufacturers I haven't tried is BE256. Each is very different, even though some of them are supposed to be repacked versions of others.
I don't think T58 is good for a Saison: that style needs very high attenuation, and T58 isn't a superattenuator.
I use T58 exclusively for Belgian Blondes: sweet, heavy, fruity, very lightly hopped blondes of 6-7% ABV. Didn't really like it in any other style, although I've tried to use it in many.
I think, T58 is a very specific yeast, not like any other and it's a kind of acquired taste, but when you acquire the taste, you get to love it. A T58 Blond is a staple in my cellar, no such thing as not having a batch of it at any time.

What are your thoughts on M31, M41 and M47, if I may ask?

I came across a suggestion recently that M31 might be repackaged BE-134. M31 did strike me as saison-like.

 

[Protos]

What are your thoughts on M31, M41 and M47, if I may ask?

Well, here's my 0.02 on each of them.

M31 is indeed quite Saison-like, although not in the same way as BE134 or M29. It has that peculiar saisony smoky phenolic note (closer to BE134 than to M29), however much more subdued than in those two yeasts. It also stands closer to BE134 in that it doesn't produce detectable levels of glycerol (unlike M29 which adds a lot of slickiness saving the overattenuated beer from tasting thin). I'm yet to force out of M31 that "fantastic complex marriage of spice, fruity esters" promised by the advertiser. It gives some slight fruitiness but nothing fantastic at all, it's barely noticeable. If it's indeed a repackaged BE134, it's being probably blended with something else, presumably M47. I don't like it too much, although I tried to. Each of the two Saison yeasts alone is better than M31.

M41 is my top favourite among all dry Belgian yeasts. Nothing saisony in it, it's closer to M47 if anything. It's less fruity and more phenolic than M47 and gives that unique sensory spicy yeast bite, an extremeley pleasant feature I met in no other dry yeast. Produces enough glycerol to make fully attenuated beer silky without being slick. I ferment it at ridiculously high temps (like 32 to 34C) and love it. It works best in my strongest brews. In beers lighter than 7%ABV it looses a lot of its character.

M47 produces the nicest fruity esters of the three, but it's really hard to squeeze them out. Too cold - and they don't manifest at all, too hot - and they drown in alcohol. The esters are excellent but also very subtle. I use M47 in those Belgian Blondes where I want nice yeast aroma rather than boldness and sweetness. For sweetness I reach for T58: that yeast is much more estery than M47, but M47 esters are way more nobler than those in T58.

 

[Dr_Jeff]

I've brewed a quad and a with with T-58, each turn out mighty tasty, the quad was 13-15%, the wit finished in a day and a half.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Well, here's my 0.02 on each of them.

M31 is indeed quite Saison-like, although not in the same way as BE134 or M29. It has that peculiar saisony smoky phenolic note (closer to BE134 than to M29), however much more subdued than in those two yeasts. It also stands closer to BE134 in that it doesn't produce detectable levels of glycerol (unlike M29 which adds a lot of slickiness saving the overattenuated beer from tasting thin). I'm yet to force out of M31 that "fantastic complex marriage of spice, fruity esters" promised by the advertiser. It gives some slight fruitiness but nothing fantastic at all, it's barely noticeable. If it's indeed a repackaged BE134, it's being probably blended with something else, presumably M47. I don't like it too much, although I tried to. Each of the two Saison yeasts alone is better than M31.

M41 is my top favourite among all dry Belgian yeasts. Nothing saisony in it, it's closer to M47 if anything. It's less fruity and more phenolic than M47 and gives that unique sensory spicy yeast bite, an extremeley pleasant feature I met in no other dry yeast. Produces enough glycerol to make fully attenuated beer silky without being slick. I ferment it at ridiculously high temps (like 32 to 34C) and love it. It works best in my strongest brews. In beers lighter than 7%ABV it looses a lot of its character.

M47 produces the nicest fruity esters of the three, but it's really hard to squeeze them out. Too cold - and they don't manifest at all, too hot - and they drown in alcohol. The esters are excellent but also very subtle. I use M47 in those Belgian Blondes where I want nice yeast aroma rather than boldness and sweetness. For sweetness I reach for T58: that yeast is much more estery than M47, but M47 esters are way more nobler than those in T58.

Hey thank you, that's a much fuller answer than I anticipated, and very interesting.

I've used M31 once. The beer started out with big flavours from the yeast, a bit too much, but they faded pretty quickly. And I enjoyed the beer. At that time I had a glass of draft Du Pont in a bar and I felt it had a similarity, and I was very surprised. I'm not the best taster, but it struck me instantly. So I sort of believe that M31 is closer to the classic saison than Belle Saison or M29. I think all 3 are ok.

I haven't used M41 or M47, I've had a pack of each in the fridge all summer. A mate has used M41 a few times and I've enjoyed those beers. Nice, and fairly subdued, I felt. I don't tend to brew much over 6% though, and I mostly brew at ambient UK temperatures. I used Voss during our brief hot spell this year!

I've used T58 blended with clean ale yeasts (Notty and M44) a few times this year. I like the results. I split one batch between English hops and American hops, and they became pretty similar. So I reckon the yeast transformed the hops somewhat. I got a lemony beer. Two lemony beers.

 

[Protos]

I sort of believe that M31 is closer to the classic saison than Belle Saison or M29

That's my impression too. If the classic Saison is BE134 then M31 is definitely closer to it.
Belle and M29 seem to descend from a different Saison strain.

 

[Protos]

I used Voss during our brief hot spell this year!

Me too. This summer I brewed a "Heatwave Pils" with it: just German Pils Malt and Mittelfrüh hops fermented at 35C with Lal Voss up to 7%ABV. Majestic. It was a revelation how great "Pilsner on steroids" could be. Not a thin adjuncty booze in the style of malt liquor, just a pure strong Pilsner. This autumn and winter I gonna brew several lagered strong SM&SHes from different Pilsner malts.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

That's my impression too. If the classic Saison is BE134 then M31 is definitely closer to it.
Belle and M29 seem to descend from a different Saison strain.

I haven't used BE-134. I meant more like Du Pont. I'm not claiming M31 is a substitute for the Du Pont strain, but I think it's closer to it than Belle/M29 are. Which says a bit about yeast branding i think, as it is branded as a tripel strain. Belle Saison is closely related to WLP545 Belgian Strong Ale, iirc. I'm not sure there is such thing as a saison yeast though.

The pilsner sounds interesting. Lagers are not generally my thing but that sounds very different! I've done a couple of beers based on lager recipes this year that I fermented with clean ale yeasts. They were OK. Adding a bit of T-58 made another one better than those two, though. Pilsner malt, Saaz, M44 and a dash of T-58!

 

[Drewch]

It's worth mentioning, too, that BE-134 and Belle are STA1+. T-58 and BE-256 are not. Handle them appropriately.

 

[Protos]

So I reckon the yeast transformed the hops somewhat.

Yeah, it might. In my experience, T58 messes very unfavourably with Fuggle (and, to a lesser extent, with Styrian). Now I avoid to combine those hops with T58, although lot of Belgian recipes call for it. I feel it strips the hops of aroma leaving bare bitterness, the later the addition the worse. It works like a charm with German noble hops though.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Yeah, it might. In my experience, T58 messes very unfavourably with Fuggle (and, to a lesser extent, with Styrian). Now I avoid to combine those hops with T58, although lot of Belgian recipes call for it. I feel it strips the hops of aroma leaving bare bitterness, the later the addition the worse. It works like a charm with German noble hops though.

Odd that it strips some hops and not others. Different oils?

 

[Protos]

Maybe that or maybe hop aromatic compounds aren't exactly stripped but rather overpowered by certain yeast-derived chemicals, and T58 produces lot of them, seemingly more than most other yeasts. In my experience, mighty flavorful yeasts often clash with hop aromas and sometimes require a very careful choise of hops.

 

[monkeymath]

Honestly I think this talk about one yeast being a saison strain and that yeast being a tripel strain somewhat artificial. An isolated strain from a yeast bank is inherently disconnected from the cultural and historical meaning of "Saison" as a farmhouse ale.
So the label "Saison strain" can only mean "a yeast that can be used (or: is commercially used) to produce to a beer that meets certain expectations for a beer labeled as 'saison'". But that is not actually well-defined, fundamentally subjective and, moreover, subject to change.
For example,.many brewers use Belle Saison, which imo gives a rather dull character and an odd sweetness that disagrees with what I consider essential for a saison - yet with dozens of commercial 'saisons' made using that yeast, I will have a hard time arguing that it wasn't a saison strain. Conversely, I'm sure you could make a saison using say a lager yeast combined with brettanomyces - but where's the "saison yeast" now?!

I'm sure lots and lots of Belgian (and some English, too!) strains can be used to make a convincing saison, whatever that may actually mean. Don't fret too much about the label.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

So I reckon the yeast transformed the hops somewhat. I got a lemony beer. Two lemony beers.

It's good to hear of other people finding that T-58 messes with hops, I did a split batch of a SMASH-ish with 100% Otter, bittering and around 6g/l of 4:1 Chinook:Amarillo and T-58 turned the grapefruit into a more complex lime, at the expense of maybe 20% of hop intensity (whereas eg WB-06 smashed up all hop flavour and danced on its grave).

 

[Miraculix]

What's the current best practice to get lemony-peppery saison flavour with current dry yeasts? Which yeast? What grist? Hops?

 

[dmtaylor]

What's the current best practice to get lemony-peppery saison flavour with current dry yeasts? Which yeast? What grist? Hops?

Belle Saison or M29, fermented at room temperature (68 F or 20 C) for 3.5 weeks -- yes, it often/usually takes that long to get to 95% attenuation or FG 1.002. Grist and hops don't much matter, to accentuate lemon I might consider adding a small charge of Centennial and/or Sorachi Ace (although along with the latter comes dill as well, which is a love/hate thing).

 

[Miraculix]

Belle Saison or M29, fermented at room temperature (68 F or 20 C) for 3.5 weeks -- yes, it often/usually takes that long to get to 95% attenuation or FG 1.002. Grist and hops don't much matter, to accentuate lemon I might consider adding a small charge of Centennial and/or Sorachi Ace (although along with the latter comes dill as well, which is a love/hate thing).

Didn't work for me last time I tried. No lemon, no pepper.

Time-wise, you are correct!

 

[Sipina]

I've used M31 once. The beer started out with big flavours from the yeast, a bit too much, but they faded pretty quickly.

This is exactly what I've just experienced with my last beer fermented with M31. I am left with this rich, malty, chewy, big bodied beer; thanks to munich malt and special B. It's a good beer just not what I was aiming for.