T58 vs BE256

[Protos]

So I reckon the yeast transformed the hops somewhat.

Yeah, it might. In my experience, T58 messes very unfavourably with Fuggle (and, to a lesser extent, with Styrian). Now I avoid to combine those hops with T58, although lot of Belgian recipes call for it. I feel it strips the hops of aroma leaving bare bitterness, the later the addition the worse. It works like a charm with German noble hops though.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Yeah, it might. In my experience, T58 messes very unfavourably with Fuggle (and, to a lesser extent, with Styrian). Now I avoid to combine those hops with T58, although lot of Belgian recipes call for it. I feel it strips the hops of aroma leaving bare bitterness, the later the addition the worse. It works like a charm with German noble hops though.

Odd that it strips some hops and not others. Different oils?

 

[Protos]

Maybe that or maybe hop aromatic compounds aren't exactly stripped but rather overpowered by certain yeast-derived chemicals, and T58 produces lot of them, seemingly more than most other yeasts. In my experience, mighty flavorful yeasts often clash with hop aromas and sometimes require a very careful choise of hops.

 

[monkeymath]

Honestly I think this talk about one yeast being a saison strain and that yeast being a tripel strain somewhat artificial. An isolated strain from a yeast bank is inherently disconnected from the cultural and historical meaning of "Saison" as a farmhouse ale.
So the label "Saison strain" can only mean "a yeast that can be used (or: is commercially used) to produce to a beer that meets certain expectations for a beer labeled as 'saison'". But that is not actually well-defined, fundamentally subjective and, moreover, subject to change.
For example,.many brewers use Belle Saison, which imo gives a rather dull character and an odd sweetness that disagrees with what I consider essential for a saison - yet with dozens of commercial 'saisons' made using that yeast, I will have a hard time arguing that it wasn't a saison strain. Conversely, I'm sure you could make a saison using say a lager yeast combined with brettanomyces - but where's the "saison yeast" now?!

I'm sure lots and lots of Belgian (and some English, too!) strains can be used to make a convincing saison, whatever that may actually mean. Don't fret too much about the label.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

So I reckon the yeast transformed the hops somewhat. I got a lemony beer. Two lemony beers.

It's good to hear of other people finding that T-58 messes with hops, I did a split batch of a SMASH-ish with 100% Otter, bittering and around 6g/l of 4:1 Chinook:Amarillo and T-58 turned the grapefruit into a more complex lime, at the expense of maybe 20% of hop intensity (whereas eg WB-06 smashed up all hop flavour and danced on its grave).

 

[Miraculix]

What's the current best practice to get lemony-peppery saison flavour with current dry yeasts? Which yeast? What grist? Hops?

 

[dmtaylor]

What's the current best practice to get lemony-peppery saison flavour with current dry yeasts? Which yeast? What grist? Hops?

Belle Saison or M29, fermented at room temperature (68 F or 20 C) for 3.5 weeks -- yes, it often/usually takes that long to get to 95% attenuation or FG 1.002. Grist and hops don't much matter, to accentuate lemon I might consider adding a small charge of Centennial and/or Sorachi Ace (although along with the latter comes dill as well, which is a love/hate thing).

 

[Miraculix]

Belle Saison or M29, fermented at room temperature (68 F or 20 C) for 3.5 weeks -- yes, it often/usually takes that long to get to 95% attenuation or FG 1.002. Grist and hops don't much matter, to accentuate lemon I might consider adding a small charge of Centennial and/or Sorachi Ace (although along with the latter comes dill as well, which is a love/hate thing).

Didn't work for me last time I tried. No lemon, no pepper.

Time-wise, you are correct!

 

[Sipina]

I've used M31 once. The beer started out with big flavours from the yeast, a bit too much, but they faded pretty quickly.

This is exactly what I've just experienced with my last beer fermented with M31. I am left with this rich, malty, chewy, big bodied beer; thanks to munich malt and special B. It's a good beer just not what I was aiming for.