Searching for recent experience with SafAle S-33

[thehaze]

Hello there,

I am wondering if any of you have used S-33 recently and what kind of beers did you make. What was the attenuation of the yeast and how did it present itself: was it estery, phenolic, dry, too sweet, tart, etc.

I have used it twice last year on some IPAs, and they come out good. Actually, the yeast was not much of an attenuator, but the final beers were good and drinkable, with lots of hop aroma. They never felt overly sweet or under-attenuated. The beer would clear nicely in the bottle, forming a easily breakable layer at the bottom of the bottle.

I know it is the old EDME strain, but one of my questions, besides the ones form above, is: would S-33 be an OK option for a low ABV NEIPA style beer? I am thinking the low attenuation and a bit of esters would definitely not hurt. I am thinking of using US-05, but it will probably attenuate more than it needs to in a low ABV beer.

 

[brewbama]

I have used S-33 in English beers. It’s a low attenuator typical of English styles because of the low use of maltotriose. I would not say the finished beer is sweet, but rather a full mouth feel. I also thought it was fairly neutral vs phenolic or estery.

I think your best bet for NE style beer would be LALBREW NEW ENGLAND http://www.lallemandbrewing.com/product-details/lalbrew-new-england/

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I think your best bet for NE style beer would be LALBREW NEW ENGLAND http://www.lallemandbrewing.com/product-details/lalbrew-new-england/

Except it's not available in retail packs yet AFAIA except for one place in Northern Ireland that's repacking 500g packs...

There's a thread dedicated to dry yeasts for NEIPAs which may be helpful - but in general any fairly normal British yeast seems to work OK for them.

 

[thehaze]

I tried the S-04/T-58/WB-06 ( now var. diastaticus ) combo and I also tried 1318 with very good results.

I am looking for a cheap dry yeast, that could possibly yield an OK 4-4.5% NEIPA with a short turn around time. S-33 is definitely agressive and usually finishes in the first 3-4 days of fermentation.

Maybe I will give S-33 a try. It will most probably lack the esters, but ... why not.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

In your position I'd want to look at some of the Yorkshire yeasts which have only recently been appreciated as part of the saison family and are POF+ without being super-Belgiumy. One would think they're a good approximation to the S-04+T-58 combo. The benchmark is WLP037 which is still in the Vault, but I suspect a number of other Yorkshire yeast are similar. I'm planning to get some 1469 in my next big yeast order and test it for POFness, so you might want to try that or on the dry front - Mangrove Jack M15 Empire. It's meant to be very similar to M03 which was linked to Newcastle Brown, it 's meant to be very estery-fruity, preserves hop aroma well and is very aggressive (although some reports are that it chews a lot of sugar quickly, then sulks for a bit before chewing the rest). I've not heard of it being used in NEIPAs but it could be a really interesting one to try.

 

[thehaze]

Mangrove Jack M15 Empire sounds like a good yeast for both hoppier styles, but also something like a mild/ESB or a bolder hopped Pale ale.

Thanks for that. I will try to get my hands on Mangrove Jack M15 Empire and try it in a few recipes this year.

 

[thehaze]

I have made an order for some grains, hops and yeast and I will be giving S-33 a go for a 4.5% ABV beer, with oats and some hops.

Hopefully, it will yield an OK New England style beer, perfect for the upcoming spring.

 

[ccous]

How did S-33 work out in the session NEPA?

 

[thehaze]

Hi there. It worked out very well. The beer was tasty, hazy, bright yellow coloured, with lots of citrus, dankness, a bit of non-descript fruit in the background.

The yeast did OK. I mashed at 155F and got 68% AA, which is in line with what the yeast can deliver. I would not call it very estery, but all beers made with it were crisp tasting, even at higher FGs. This was the recipe if interested:

SRM: 3.9
IBU: 37
OG: 1.051
FG: 1.016
ABV: 4.6%

Hopped with Enigma, Motueka, El Dorado and Idaho 7.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

There is a thread on this forum discussing gene sequencing data, and it shows that S-33 and Windsor are essentially the same dry yeast.

 

[Protos]

This poor yeastie has got such a bad rep... Tempted to try S-33 for the first time, I thoroughly read every thread on this forum that mention it, this one included. As a result, I was extremely apprehensive with my S-33 experiment.
And I loved the beer it made. It's one of my favourite yeasts now.

I struggle to understand how people get stuck fermentations with this yeast. I consistently get 70-72% attenuation, down to 1.015 in three weeks in primary, during which it flocculated reasonably well and in no way stays cloudy and hazy, like some report. Never needed to baby it, no special treatment whatsoever, just standard fermentation procedure, same as with all my other English yeasts. Yes, it attenuates on the lower side, but it's not a fault, it's by design. There's plenty of styles that require lower attenuation.

Of course, there's nothing Belgian in it. It's a classic English yeast in the vein of Windsor, perfectly suitable for cloning the Fuller's range, Scottish ales and other styles that need some body and residual sweetness. I wonder why Fermentis mention Trappist ales at all in their recommendations. Safale BE-256, BE-134 and T-58 are far better suited for Belgian styles. Maybe, the obvious mislabeling can be the main culprit behind this yeast getting so much bad rep. No wonder people are often disappointed when trying to make Belgian styles with English yeast.
This yeast is indeed a variety of London ESB / M15 Empire Ale dry strain as its flavour and overall behaviour suggests. It's the cheapest and the most neutral of them, which is great.

Sorry for unearthing a zombie thread. I just feel I need to add another positive feedback on S-33 experience for those who will search S-33 threads, like I was searching several months before.

 

[philm63]

Actually, thanks for digging this one up. I just happen to have a sachet of S-33 laying around; bought it at the LHBS a few months ago thinking I'd use it in an IPA but from my reading, now I'm not so sure that's the best fit, and have since been wondering if I'll ever use it. Perhaps I'll use it now in an English style ale, haven't brewed one of those in a while. Can one coax some esters at the high-end of the fermentation range?

 

[Protos]

I managed to extract some esters from this yeast fermenting at higher temperatures. However I found that M15 is a better choise when I want an estery English ale: M15's dark fruitiness just feels more "authentic" to me than S-33 breadiness. I use S-33 when I want my ales to be fuller but not too aromatic. My best result with it was a Bishop's Finger clone and now I'm planning to clone Maclay Mild 1909.

 

[Tyler B]

Bought a package of this a couple months or so ago in response to a yeast shortage (thanks Covid). Trying to figure out what to do with it and stumbled on this thread.

I considered using it in a NEIPA or an ESB. As has been said, this yeast gets pretty bad reviews so I'm a bit hesitant. I'm leaning towards ESB, as Phil an Protos suggested. Anyone else have much success using it in either of those styles?

 

[Mu1348]

Just joined the site and found this thread. I just brewed my first own recipe last week using S-33 because of it being labeled Belgian. The home brew store here is really just a small section in a homeopathic store...and they had limited knowledge. Brewed a 1gal batch with 2# Pilsner, 1#Wheat, with 1oz Huell Melon hops 1/3 @60, 1/3 @20, 1/3 @5. I don’t have a means to measure gravity yet but Brewers Friend has OG at 1.087 and FG at 1.024. IBUs at 60. Hopefully it isn’t too sweet. I’ll sample before bottling and add some S-05 or WB-06 if too sweet. I’ll let y’all know how it turns out.

 

[chungyfied]

I see quite a few discussion regarding the S33's similarity to ESB / M15. Has anyone done a split batch comparison to see if S33 / M15 or ESB or Windsor / M15 are the same? I ask because I love the M15 in one of my recipes and I recently realised from comparing notes that S33 and M15 are exactly the same in terms of kinetics in my previous brews. However I have never done a split batch and tasted both of them side by side to know if the flavours are the same.

 

[Protos]

Well, not so much of a split batch, but I did the same recipe (ESB) with both M15 and S33 in different batches in different time. Didn't do side by side tasting but was specifically interested in comparing the two. My impression is the yeasts are very similar but certainly not the same. M15 ferments a tad lower and is overall somewhat more estery and fruity. S33 ferments a bit cleaner and has a slight bready flavour note absent from M15. I think of them as of perfectly interchangable. The difference is minute IMO.
Those who prefer less extreme estery profile for British ales may love S33 more. Me, I like ester bombs, so I use M15 more often than S33.

 

[Mu1348]

I got my refractometer in this past Friday and pulled a sample. It measures 10 Brix Using the calculated OG of 1.087 Put the FG at 1.011 which seems low for S-33 (Brewers Friend has it finishing at 1.024 by calculation) I pulled my fermenter out of the water bath and put it in the kitchen to bottle the next morning....and fermentation started back up and it’s still bubbling.... I’ll post again when it finishes.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

There is always a measure of dissolved CO2 in solution. A colder solution holds more CO2 in solution than does a warmer one. When you removed the beer from the water bath and permitted it to warm up, the dissolved CO2 saturation point was shifted, and CO2 was being released accordingly whereby to attain the new solubility equilibrium point.

 

[Mu1348]

There was activity from the yeast cake though. I’d figure if it was dissolved CO2 releasing there wouldn’t be activity from the cake 36hrs after putting it on the counter would it? Btw, it’s just a 1gal batch.

 

[Mu1348]

UPDATE: It’s been 4 days with fermenter out of water bath (was in water bath for 2 weeks) and fermenter is still bubbling at about 1bbl every 40 seconds. Refractometer down from 10 to 9 Brix in those 4 days.

It’s going to be a tasty brew From the sample I pulled, but is going to benefit from some aging to mellow everything out.

 

[Mu1348]

I bottled my Huell Melon/Wheat brew done with S-33....it’s a very tasty brew going into the bottle. It almost tasted like a pineapple/melon NEIPA....can’t wait for it to bottle condition. The Brix dropped another 8.5 from last report.

 

[thehaze]

Have a DH Pale Ale in the keg now: 100% Pilsner / 250 ppm SO4 + 150 ppm Cl + 190 ppm Ca / 50 IBU / S-33 / Idaho 7 and Mandarina Bavaria in the kettle with 60% Motueka + 40% Simcoe in the dry hop. Fermentation temperature was 23C / 73F. Smells like pineapple and citrus.

 

[Mu1348]

TheHaze - Do you think it’s the hops or yeast giving off that pineapple character?

 

[thehaze]

TheHaze - Do you think it’s the hops or yeast giving off that pineapple character?

I think it's the hops, as Simcoe and Motueka will definitely give off " tropical " notes ( whirlpool hops will also aid in rounding up the aroma and flavour ). The yeast most likely supports the fruitiness. S-33 was for a longer time known and used as a " belgian-style yeast ", which it never was and it's still not belgiany in any way. It is known now that is closely related to Danstar Windsor, Danstar London ESB, Munton's regular ale yeast and most likely the old EDME yeast. It's english, with a bready edge - some brewers have noticed - and some non-descript, mild fruitiness. I always fermented it warm, so a bit more than 68F. Whether that helped the yeast give off more esters, I wouldn't dare say, although possible. I have yet to notice any off-flavours or high alcohols from fermenting it warm. As a little note: it does produce some sulphur notes, which quickly dissipate. I always pitch 2 sachets for 20-23 liters with an OG of 1.050-1.-065, so the yeast should not be stressed. It is however very fast and the bulk of fermentation happens within 48-72 hours.

 

[Mu1348]

I think it's the hops, as Simcoe and Motueka will definitely give off " tropical " notes ( whirlpool hops will also aid in rounding up the aroma and flavour ). The yeast most likely supports the fruitiness. S-33 was for a longer time known and used as a " belgian-style yeast ", which it never was and it's still not belgiany in any way. It is known now that is closely related to Danstar Windsor, Danstar London ESB, Munton's regular ale yeast and most likely the old EDME yeast. It's english, with a bready edge - some brewers have noticed - and some non-descript, mild fruitiness. I always fermented it warm, so a bit more than 68F. Whether that helped the yeast give off more esters, I wouldn't dare say, although possible. I have yet to notice any off-flavours or high alcohols from fermenting it warm. As a little note: it does produce some sulphur notes, which quickly dissipate. I always pitch 2 sachets for 20-23 liters with an OG of 1.050-1.-065, so the yeast should not be stressed. It is however very fast and the bulk of fermentation happens within 48-72 hours.

Yeah, my fermentation went quick at first in a water bath to hold lower fermentation temps. After 2wks I moved it to the counter to bottle the next morning and fermentation started back up and bubbled slowly for another week. I let it sit another week to clear up. When I use it again I’ll move it to the counter after primary fermentation subsides to finish up a little faster. That should cut at least a 1-1.5 weeks off the fermentation time I had this round.

 

[thehaze]

So I've read a couple of threads where brewers had additional fermentation going on with S-33, resulting in more attenuation ( could be anything else, like contamination, infection, inaccurate gravity readings, etc. ), but my experience is that is will stay between 68 and 72-73% AA. Maybe it's sensitive to hop creep, which could lead to some additional gravity points, but It wouldn't count for many weeks of fermentation and will only happen with dry hopped beers. Fermentation is not measured by " bubbles " in the airlock and their intensity or lack thereof. You always want to take a gravity reading with a calibrated hydrometer to make sure it's finished. Even at 17-18-19C, this yeast will not take longer than 3-4 days to be ready. It depends on the beer you are brewing, but most ales will ferment out in 2-4 days using this yeast. You need a few days extra for it to clean after tiself, etc. etc. But bulk fermentation is a matter of a couple of days for this yeast.

 

[user 272106]

I originally bought it based on an old "belgian" description from place I purchase. Giving it a go as an IPA. Pitched a starter into 1.061 OG wort about 24 hours ago. It's humming along nicely and at 1.045 according to my tilt. I'm not expecting much out of this yeast based on other threads, but hope I'm surprised. Plan to dry hop after 12 days for 2 days and keg on day 14, then let sit for 2 weeks before drinking.

 

[Mu1348]

I originally bought it based on an old "belgian" description from place I purchase. Giving it a go as an IPA. Pitched a starter into 1.061 OG wort about 24 hours ago. It's humming along nicely and at 1.045 according to my tilt. I'm not expecting much out of this yeast based on other threads, but hope I'm surprised. Plan to dry hop after 12 days for 2 days and keg on day 14, then let sit for 2 weeks before drinking.

If it stops in a few days consider warming it a few degrees....it started back up with me when I did this.

 

[user 272106]

Its already down to 1.018 and still going strong at a constant 63f. Brewfather (only my second brew using it) expected that to be its terminal gravity. Still plan to raise to 70 for a day or two before dry hopping.

 

[thehaze]

I would raise the temperature after 5 days and keep it there for another 5. Dry hopping at temps. over 70F is somewhat not recommended, if you read through all the IPA/NEIPA threads, but wouldn't neccessarily mean that doing it at 70F could cause any major issues.

 

[user 272106]

Just an update on this. Life got busy and I cold crashed and effectively lagered it for 5 weeks in my spike cf5. I didn't bother dry hopping (had planned to in mid 60's after the 70f rest followed by soft crash for yeast dump). This is quite possibly the strangest brew I've done. I can see why many people don't like it. It doesn't really seem like it fits any normal category of beer. To me it tastes like I blended a hoppy IPA (large whirlpool addition) and a simple belle Saison brew. I don't mind it. Can't say I like it. Can't say I hate it. I'm somewhat confused yet keep pouring more. Cheers.

 

[thehaze]

Some recent experience: I brewed two Pale Ales in August where the only variable was the yeast between these two batches - one got S-33 and the other one US-05. The recipe was exactly the same for both:

S-33 was 5.5% ABV ( OG: 1.050 / FG: 1.008 - 83% AA - hop creep?? ) and US-05 was 5.8% ABV ( OG:1.051 / FG: 1.007 - 86% AA - hop creep again?? ) - both around 50 IBU - SRM 3

100% Pilsner malt
100 gr / 3.5 oz Mandarina Bavaria - kettle + whirlpool
100 gr / 3.5 oz Idaho 7 - only whirlpool
30 gr / 1 oz Simcoe - only whirlpool
100 gr / 3.5 oz Motueka - dry hop 2 days
70 gr / 2.5 oz Simcoe - dry hop 2 days
Mash water: 20 ppm Na / 10 ppm Mg / 150 ppm Cl / 250 ppm SO4 / whatever Ca was in there, but around 190 ppm - Mash pH was 5.4 at room temperature, whcih was 20C/68F. Mash temp. was 65C/149F for 90 minutes

Boiled for 1 hour, pitched 2 sachets each, fermented at around 71-73F and kegged 12 days from pitching yeast. No cold crash. Left the beers for 10 days at around 12-13 PSI. In the first month, the beers showcased pineapple as the main aroma, some " unrefined " citrus notes, black tea, maybe a touch of herbal notes. The beers lastes around 2 months in the kegs. No signs of oxidation or colour changing. They were pretty hazy, although I didn't plan on it.

In the last 3 weeks, they started to clear and the pineapple disappeared in the S-33 batch, leaving room for powdered sugar/vanilla in the nose, distinct lime, soft generic citrus, soft herbal/pine? on the palate. The US-05 was generally a bit more popping, sharper - both aroma and flavour wise, although the US-05 batch did not have any " sweet " notes in the aroma, but more of a dank/maybe catty/citrussy aroma, but not unpleasent, whereas the S-33 was more estery, fruitier, softer, pleasent, with a milder/softer bitterness and easier on the palate.

I was surprised of how the beers changed over time, but in a good way. I have to say that S-33 is a good yeast. Whether it's luck, or just a good choice of ingredients, recipe and process, that resulted in the final product, I cannot say. But I will not stop using it. I am bit confused about the high attenuation in both cases. It could've been an error in measuring, determing gravity, etc. They however did not suffer from any diacetyl, sulphur, popcorn, butterscotch, high alcohols, phenols or anything that would point out to flaws and off-flavours. These beers were tasted by many people, among these people that also brew beer and are in the beer industry. ( however small it is ). Most people liked the S-33 beer better. Cheers!

 

[EstebanPro86]

I just brewed a NE IPA (used extra light DME) with S-33 and it tastes and smells like a fresh bag of tortilla chips. I like it, but I bittered with CTZ, whirlpooled with Mosaic, and dry hopped with BRU-1 and Sabro - I didn't expect this flavor. I am reading that it comes from 2-acetylpyridine. Is S-33 known to produce a lot of this compound?? How can it be avoided?

 

[thehaze]

I just brewed a NE IPA (used extra light DME) with S-33 and it tastes and smells like a fresh bag of tortilla chips. I like it, but I bittered with CTZ, whirlpooled with Mosaic, and dry hopped with BRU-1 and Sabro - I didn't expect this flavor. I am reading that it comes from 2-acetylpyridine. Is S-33 known to produce a lot of this compound?? How can it be avoided?

No, it does not. I also don't eat tortillas, but I guess they smell of corn? That " 2-acetylpyridine " comes from the malt used, as far as I can read: Malty-biscuity beer flavour standard - 2-acetyl pyridine - malt dust. and Analyzing Malt Flavor | MoreBeer

Moreover, if your beer only smells of cooked corn, that's unfortunate. It should smell of hops. That compound is not produced by yeast.

 

[EstebanPro86]

No, it does not. I also don't eat tortillas, but I guess they smell of corn? That " 2-acetylpyridine " comes from the malt used, as far as I can read: Malty-biscuity beer flavour standard - 2-acetyl pyridine - malt dust. and Analyzing Malt Flavor | MoreBeer

Moreover, if your beer only smells of cooked corn, that's unfortunate. It should smell of hops. That compound is not produced by yeast.

It's not cooked corn like DMS, its toasted corn like chips or tortillas. I've tasted this flavor in hefeweizens/wheat beers in the past. its the craziest thing. It's only been bottle conditioning for 5 days. Perhaps I need to give it 5 more to see if it goes away

 

[thehaze]

In that case, I don't think it's tortillas you are tasting, because hefeweizens do not have that. Is it possible you are perceiving phenols as corn chips? I don't know which hefeweizens you have tried but Weihenstephaner, Paulaner, Franziskaner, Ayinger, Schneider, etc. do not have that.

 

[EstebanPro86]

In that case, I don't think it's tortillas you are tasting, because hefeweizens do not have that. Is it possible you are perceiving phenols as corn chips? I don't know which hefeweizens you have tried but Weihenstephaner, Paulaner, Franziskaner, Ayinger, Schneider, etc. do not have that.

Out of all those I have only tried paulaner and your right it doesn’t have any tortilla chip flavor. I thought S-33 was POF-?

 

[user 272106]

I would definitely not call it tortilla chip. As for the Hefeweizen reference, yes I get a similar taste from the yeast with slight clove and banana esters.

 

[chungyfied]

Does anyone have experience with the S33 consistently restarting fermentation around the 2 week mark?

Something I have noticed in my notes with the S33 (and also M15) is that they ferment very quickly, getting to around 64 - 68% AA within 4 - 5 days with no further gravity drop thereafter. However on a couple of brews where i have left the primary up to 28 days, i seem to get up to 75% AA.

Searching around the forums I have seen some people mention that the fermentation can start again after 2 weeks but i would like to check if this is a regular phenomenon for evceryone.