Problem with off flavors in JUST my IPAs. Going to test but would this work.

[Rivenin]

SO, i've been having this issue with JUST my IPAs.
Everything else turns out fine, stout, porter, pale mild, sours, etc. And it's just a recent occurrence. I've brewed some amazing IPAs and IIPAs in the past, but since i moved back into portland, i decided to give the tap water a shot.
Long story short, there is barely any hop flavor or smell at all, it just smells and tastes like a weird caramel, not diacetyl, not really off, just, it has no hops. And the same exact flavor has been there in all my hop forward beers recently.

Pulled a water report and we are pretty much close to 0 on everything and we also have chloramines... so i use campden.
While we are close to 0, i use the water chemistry primer as well to add salts and some acid malts since i started using tap water, all my IPAs i've made have pretty much been a waste of money, which isn't great because funds are limited for me . So i have a feeling the water run offs changed, so something happened with the water recently... but i don't want to waste money anymore on my expensive hoppy beers and would rather have a plan in place. Also, i live in outer south east, so i may not always be on the same portland water.

Now, in the past, i've always brought my 5 gallon jugs to the store, filled them up and brewed with spring water... i just got tired of lugging the 10 gallons of water to and fro.

So, i think i'm going to bite the small bullet and start buying spring water again (it's like $3 a batch, so it's not a huge ordeal). But i'm going to brew 2 twin recipes to make sure the water is my culprit (i'm pretty sure it is, but i'd rather run some tests to be positive!)

Now, i want something to turn around semi quick, but i also want something hop forward to see if and where it dulls out. and since i have a few extra oz of galaxy, this is the plan. (i have some mosaic too, but trying to save that for an american wheat, but can swap them if mosaic might be the better choice for this kind of test?)

8lb maris otter
.25 galaxy @60
.75 galaxy @15
1 galaxy @0

S-05
mash at 155*
should be 1.046 and 33IBU

1 with plain tap water (treated with campden only)
1 with spring water from the store

going to ferment it out for 1 week in my fermentation fridge, 1 week in my closet (To make space in the fridge, it stays around 65) and brew these 1 week apart. Keg for 2 weeks and do a side by side. (1 month for a 1.046 beer seems like plenty)

Anyone see any hiccups i'm missing here?

 

[Yooper]

How about this? In that "tap water" version, adding 1 teaspoon of gypsum to the mash.

do you check mash pH at all?

 

[Rivenin]

Nope. Unfortunately I do not. I was eyeballing PH meters not too long ago for fruit wine making, but the price tag and upkeep kept me away from them. I could buy the strips, but i know they aren't accurate, especially needing to be for this kind of scenario which is unfortunate.

But i indeed will add 1tsp to the mash!

 

[mabrungard]

With typical Pacific NW water off the coastal mtns, the water quality is pretty clean. For pales and IPA's, that will tend to leave the beer somewhat flavorless. In addition, if you weren't adding some form of acid to the mash, the mash pH was probably too high and the opportunity to extract tannins rises. John Palmer and I visited a brewery that used straight RO water with no minerals. Their IPA was exactly as I mention above.

The Pale Ale profile in Bru'n Water has proven to be a compliment to typical pale ale and IPA brewing. This profile is a compilation of water profiles devised by notables such as Mosher and McDole. As outlined in my Zymurgy article on Burton water conditions, it turns out that this pale ale profile with its modest (compared to Burton water) mineralization is more likely to be what Burton brewers used to craft their beers. The dilution of their groundwater with the River Trent water made the difference. Their pure groundwater was too minerally to make good beer.

While I find the dryness provided by the 300ppm sulfate content of the Pale Ale profile appealing, some may prefer a less dry character. I can tell you that 100 ppm sulfate is the lowest content I would consider suitable for pales and IPAs. 200 ppm may be a good starting point for many brewers. Be aware that when you add a bunch of gypsum to low alkalinity water like that Pacific NW tap water or RO, it is likely that you will HAVE to add some alkalinity to the mashing water to keep the mash pH from dropping too low. For hoppy beers, targeting a mash pH of 5.4 does improve the hop expression. If the pH is much lower than that, the expression WILL suffer.

Enjoy!

 

[Rivenin]

Hey Martin!
Thanks for chiming in!
I did type a bunch up there, so I don't fault you for skipping any part of it but i do indeed acidify the mash with usually 2-3% acidulated malt to counterbalance the very soft water we have here in the PNW. This goes right next to Calcium Chloride and some Gypsum when it is a pale beer.

I was basically following this within the guidelines of the "water chemistry primer" in the stickies section up above.

Baseline: Add 1 tsp of calcium chloride dihydrate (what your LHBS sells) to each 5 gallons of water treated. Add 2% sauermalz to the grist.

Deviate from the baseline as follows:

For soft water beers (i.e Pils, Helles). Use half the baseline amount of calcium chloride and increase the sauermalz to 3%

For beers that use roast malt (Stout, porter): Skip the sauermalz.

For British beers: Add 1 tsp gypsum as well as 1 tsp calcium chloride

For very minerally beers (Export, Burton ale): Double the calcium chloride and the gypsum.

 

[Rivenin]

Oh, i do want to mention, all of that caramel flavor is there in all the beers... and they are separate grain bills.

here is the 2 last recipes i was playing with

13lb 2-row
.5lb c-10
6.4oz acid malt
1lb sugar

1.75 pacific jade @60
1 wakatu @15
1 wakatu @10
1 motueka @10
2 motueka @5
2 motueka @0
3 wakatu @0
.25 pacific jade @0

only a week old, but i usually pull samples once a week in primary... just 'cuz it's fun. and this one has the same flavor the other ones do, but i'm not panicing on that one JUST yet.

9lb golden promise
2lb vienna
.75 c-20
5oz acid malt

.6 columbus @60
1 citra @15
1 amarillo @15
2 goldings @0
1 amarillo @0
1 citra DH 5 days
1 columbus DH 5 days

That one is super caramelly , no hop feel/taste really... kinda like a dirty peach.

and this last one, has that same funky caramel flavor...

8.5lb 2-row
.5lb honey malt
3oz acid malt

.3 nelson sauvin @60
.5 nelson sauvin @15
.5 nelson sauvin @5
.7 nelson sauvin dh 5 days

the first two fermented out with s-05 and the last was s-04

 

[johnsnownw]

Do you acidify your sparge water?

 

[Rivenin]

Nope, that I do not do.
I was more or less thinking if spring water worked great for all of my IPAs in the past, tossing some acid malt in the mash with some salts would make it better with the clean PNW water, but apparently my brain was wrong

 

[johnsnownw]

Nope, that I do not do.
I was more or less thinking if spring water worked great for all of my IPAs in the past, tossing some acid malt in the mash with some salts would make it better with the clean PNW water, but apparently my brain was wrong

Not acidifying your sparge water can raise the pH to undesirable levels during your sparge. I'm not saying that's what's causing the issue, but it could be a potential problem.

Try using a water calculator for your next brews.

Hell, use some brewing software for the next one. One that I've been using recently and have been happy with can be found here...it's free:

Brewcipher

 

[mabrungard]

If the tap water has low alkalinity, there is no need to acidify sparging water. I like to target an alkalinity of about 25 ppm as CaCO3 for treated sparging water. If the tap water has less alkalinity than that (typical for RO or rain water), then you don't need to acidify the sparging water. If the tap water alkalinity is significantly higher than that, its increasingly important to acidify the sparging water.

 

[PlinyTheMiddleAged]

Rivenin,

I suggest using Bru'n Water to estimate the pH of your mash. If your tap water is essentially RO and you are using the primer additions of gypsum and calcium chloride, your acidulated malt additions may be pushing you mash pH below 5.4.

I just ran your first recipe from post #6 through Bru'n Water, and I got a mash pH of 5.1. I used a distilled water profile with primer salt additions. If I leave the acidulated malt out, I get a mash pH of 5.4. Mind you, I did this quickly - I suggest you verify this before taking action.


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[Rivenin]

Yup! that i'm going to do on the next batch so i can get a clear and concise idea of what is happening.... i just wish PH meters weren't so expensive so i know what is happening.

Here is my water profile as well
---------------------
CA = 2
MG = 1
NA = 3
CI = 3
SO = 3
HCO3 = 9

----------------------------

i just did the bru'n water calc for the recipe with 13lb 2row, .5 crystal and 6.4oz acid malt with the correct salt additions and PH came to 4.9.
So i need to correct all of this.

so for example, it's going to be a ton of the same beer... but i think this is going to be the plan.

1) base recipe with just RO water from the store ('cuz this is how i used to make IPAs and they came out fine, so that way i can see if i'm hosing something up elsewhere)
2) base recipe with treated tap water and acid malts if needed (campden, salts, etc)
and possibly
3) base recipe with just tap water with campden tablets for chloramine removal.
----- i was at a brewery night before last and talking with the 2 brewers.. apparently they don't treat for anything in their water at all. so they didn't have much insight, but their beer was epic.

So, for this recipe and using the "Pale Ale Profile" within Brun water. does this look correct?

8lb maris otter/pale ale malt
2.7 mash water
5.75 sparge water (to end with 5 gallons)
using the pale ale profile
additions,
- 1.5 G/G Gypsum
- .5 G/G Epsom Salt
- .4 G/G Calcium Chloride
(which, should be 4g Gypsum, 1.3g Epsom, 1.1 Calcium chloride, right?)
my finished water profile should be

calcium 122
Magnesium 14
Sodium 3 (should be 22, but i've heard to keep this one low)
Sulfate 275
Chloride 51
Bicarbonate 9
for the most part, this gets me close to where i need to be with the salt additions.
Estimated mash PH is at 5.4 which should be spot on as well, right?

Thanks everyone for the help BTW, this is a life saver! well... money saver...

 

[BreezyBrew]

I'm interested to see the feedback on this water profile. More specifically comments on the Sulfate Chloride ratio. Seems to me you would need more balance in there. Instead of 5:1 more like 3:1. Obviously, the total amounts are more important than the ratio, but to what end.

 

[dlester]

I agree with Yooper, you need the pH corrected in the mash and sparge water so you avoid the bitter off flavor derived from the grain shell, and try adding 3 to 5 grams (1/2 to 1 tblsp) of Gypsum. I would go with reverse osmosis water, which is basically 99% free of any chems, salts or carbonates, then add your own, like Gypsum. This is the way to have 100% control of your water as opposed to using water that your not sure is going to give you good beer. If you still think your water is fine, start with RO, then next batches add 25-50% city water to each batch.




Cheers

 

[GotPushrods]

I'm interested to see the feedback on this water profile. More specifically comments on the Sulfate Chloride ratio. Seems to me you would need more balance in there. Instead of 5:1 more like 3:1

The SO4/Cl ratio is meaningless. There, I said it. And without any nearly/almost/mostly caveats. It was only ever meant to suggest the importance of each. I believe AJ even has even traced this thorn back to it's origin.

Obviously, the total amounts are more important than the ratio, but to what end.

Pretty much none.

Those who supply the spreadsheets most people use will admit they include the ratio simply because "people like to see it", but do a huge disservice by not including a huge disclaimer or explanation about it's nonexistent value.

I fear it's spreading faster than we can explain this, which is a more disturbing ratio.

 

[mabrungard]

rivenin, I assume that you have removed the acid malt from your recipe? The combination of adding a lot of calcium in pursuit of sulfate along with the lack of alkalinity in the RO water will be more than enough to drive the mash pH too low by itself. Including the acid malt is throwing gasoline onto the fire.

If you happen to know what your tap water has in it, it might be a good component for brewing if the water has moderate to high alkalinity. Then you could probably throw the gypsum at it to boost the sulfate and there would be enough alkalinity to keep the pH from bottoming out. You do want that 5.4 pH to aid the hop character. You may still need to dilute the tap water with RO to fix some problems, but it might be easier than adding baking soda or lime to boost alkalinity in RO water.

 

[Rivenin]

Martin,
Sure did! all the acid malt is gone completely. that maybe part of the large problem i had originally.
For the alkalinity, here is the water profile.
CA = 2
MG = 1
NA = 3
CI = 3
SO = 3
HCO3 = 9
i'm not sure where i would find the hardness? i'm not sure what would be considered high as this is my real big venture into this thing

 

[PlinyTheMiddleAged]

Isn't the water profiles in post #12? That looks like pretty soft water to me - at least in comparison with what comes out of my tap!


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[mabrungard]

Martin,
Sure did! all the acid malt is gone completely. that maybe part of the large problem i had originally.
For the alkalinity, here is the water profile.
CA = 2
MG = 1
NA = 3
CI = 3
SO = 3
HCO3 = 9
i'm not sure where i would find the hardness? i'm not sure what would be considered high as this is my real big venture into this thing

Oh, that is the tap water? Then your main problem in brewing great IPA is that you don't have enough alkalinity in the water to allow you to add a bunch of gypsum to the water. The pH will be depressed too much. Using a bit of pickling lime could change your outcome markedly. By the way, I brew with RO water that is very similar to that tap water. I have to use lime to allow me to use the Pale Ale profile in Bru'n Water. The BJCP National judges in my club like my PA's and IPA's. Go for it!

 

[PlinyTheMiddleAged]

Martin is, of course, right. I found when I went to make my last batch of IPA using distilled water and added salts including gypsum, I had to add a very small amount of sodium bicarbonate to my strike water. If I recall correctly, the mash pH without the baking soda was predicted to be around 5.2 with Bru'n Water. After the addition, the spreadsheet predicted a mash pH of 5.39. My calibrated pH meter measured a mash pH of 5.39. Close enough for me!!!

So, long story short, watch your pH with that water profile. I find Bru'n Water to be a very useful (and easy to use) tool. I don't think I'll be brewing without it again.

Martin - any advantage of lime over baking soda? I have baking soda in my cupboard; therefore, it was my salt of choice for raising my pH.



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[Rivenin]

Ah, sounds good... and makes sense!

Since IPAs are the only ones that are really off for my tastes (like i mentioned above, only when i want a hop punch.. it's not there, my other beers all make me happy) i'll just concentrate on them.
so with the alk. it makes sense completely about the PH bottoming out.

So, i was playing with the calculator (still with the just 8lb of maris otter, 2.7 mash, 5.8 mash)
If i make the bicarbonates where it's recommended (or there about)... looks like i would need to add .5g pickling lime in the mash along with 4 grams of gypsum.
which brings me to (would want to concentrate on just a few areas first, than branch off once i'm settled)

122 calcium (profile is 138)
224 sulfate (profile is 297)
96 bicarbonate (profile is 110)

but than my mash PH supposedly is 5.6. but since i do have soft water, would that be OK? that way i can go from here and play with it more and see what i like. i just need help with a base.

:EDIT: actually, with what pliny said (reply was during my reply )
if i add in 1.2g baking soda to the mash and 4g gypsum, i'll be pretty close to where the other profile is and i have everything already
94 calcium
224 sulfate
76 bicarbonate
unless you guys see anything wrong with that one? i'll go with the pickling lime

 

[Rivenin]

Well, here goes nothing!

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[Rivenin]

And some wicked cold break

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[helibrewer]

Martin is, of course, right. I found when I went to make my last batch of IPA using distilled water and added salts including gypsum, I had to add a very small amount of sodium bicarbonate to my strike water. If I recall correctly, the mash pH without the baking soda was predicted to be around 5.2 with Bru'n Water. After the addition, the spreadsheet predicted a mash pH of 5.39. My calibrated pH meter measured a mash pH of 5.39. Close enough for me!!!

So, long story short, watch your pH with that water profile. I find Bru'n Water to be a very useful (and easy to use) tool. I don't think I'll be brewing without it again.

Martin - any advantage of lime over baking soda? I have baking soda in my cupboard; therefore, it was my salt of choice for raising my pH.



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I believe on advantage of pickling lime is that you are adding Ca++ instead of Na+ for the cation. It's real advantage is in replacing chalk (CaCO3) which is just about useless under the conditions we brew in.

 

[mabrungard]

That is NICE break. As pointed out in the Zymurgy article on Burton water, its the high calcium content that really improves the break formation and also the high degree of flocculation and clarity in the finished beers. Of course, if you dry-hop the beer, then all thoughts of clarity might go out the door. But this should be a great start.

Yes, lime has the advantage of supplying calcium and that aids in the result mentioned here. But don't be too afraid of low sodium content. You can achieve decent alkalinity with only less than 50 ppm Na when using baking soda and it should be enough alkalinity for many beers. It's worth consideration in some cases. Especially when you can't find lime in your area.

 

[Rivenin]

Funny thing was, that is the test batch with no extra salts and just tap with capden for chloramines. Just had a nice good chill session and ran through the counterflow very slowly.

:EDIT: actually, with what pliny said (reply was during my reply )
if i add in 1.2g baking soda to the mash and 4g gypsum, i'll be pretty close to where the other profile is and i have everything already
94 calcium
224 sulfate
76 bicarbonate
unless you guys see anything wrong with that one? i'll go with the pickling lime

However, i think this is what i'm going with next. As i looked for pickling lime at my brew shop that has just about everything (brewbrothers.biz) and while they have just about every other salt/mineral... there is no lime. so i'll stick with the baking soda for now.

And i will have that brew day next weekend hopefully! i'll keep you posted.

 

[Yooper]

You can get pickling lime at the grocery store, by the canning supplies and pickling stuff. I've seen it at places like Wal-mart too.

 

[Rivenin]

oh awesome! didn't know that.
Looks like i'll be picking some pickling lime up next time i go shopping.

So, without getting into acid additions, the lowest i could get my mash was 5.6...

Yooper, in the beginning when you suggested i add i tsp of gypsum, you were right on the money for what i need for this batch... hilarious! and awesome (mash says 4g of gypsum which = right around 1tsp.

 

[BrewDawg79]

You can get pickling lime at the grocery store, by the canning supplies and pickling stuff. I've seen it at places like Wal-mart too.

It's a lifetime supply in one bag. Works great too.

 

[Rivenin]

Well just to update on a few things.

I've been brewing with my tap water still, doing salts and it just isn't cutting it and still tastes god awful with some of the hop forward beers, not just muddled, but just terrible. some of the other beers have been off lately too and unfortunately, for my father-in-laws birthday, i got all the ingredients for a 10 gallon batch for him and i to split and this one has that same dumb flavor that makes everything taste bitter, like chewing on an overly young apple. So i did some reading and found out the area i live in gets switched with different reservoirs, so unless i get it tested before every brew session, i'm aiming in the dark for a silent enemy. So to hell with that.

So i finally got 2 batches done with straight R/O water. One just straight up R/O water and the same recipe with R/O water and salt/acid malt additions.

Brewed on sunday and i sampled some last night (i always get some sips every few days just to see how it's going) and it tastes sooooo much better, even the straight R/O water, while i touch different, but are very tasty... makes me happy.

So just to update this thread... I'm going to be spending the 3 extra bucks on every brew session and get R/O water... Portland water is magical, but apparently i'm on the outskirts that just suck