Poll: Do you have, or plan to get, an electric car?

[Kent88]

wOOt! New free public charger available at the grocery store I've been buying from since I realized how much closer it is than where I had been going and I don't feel like there has been a dip in quality!

 

[Kharnynb]

Here in Finland, the issue with electric cars are 3-fold at the moment:
-Electrical generation market is not great at the moment, so the "cash benefit" of electrical is not as high right now.
-in "deep winter" actual range is about a third of maximum range.
-Tesla just really hecked up because Elon had to pick a fight with the swedish Unions, giving them a bad reputation.

 

[Kent88]

How much driving happens in Finland during deep winter compared to the rest of the year?

 

[Kharnynb]

How much driving happens in Finland during deep winter compared to the rest of the year?

3 months vs 9

 

[Kent88]

...

Ok, well around here from about mid November into March a lot of people cut back on trips with the major exceptions of Thanksgiving, Christmas, and Easter (depending on what day Easter falls on a particular year, and whether you observe it). Obviously we still need to go to work, school, the grocery store, etc, but we don't do much extra until the snow melts, unless you're a major ice fisherperson.

 

[Kharnynb]

long distance drives are still quite common year round, you just can't avoid it that much at least here in north/east finland.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

https://electrek.co/2024/01/04/ford-second-us-ev-sales-record-q4-2023/
https://cleantechnica.com/2024/01/05/gm-leads-ford-in-ev-sales-in-2023/
I was surprised by the poor 1H numbers posted for Ford (26K units sold) upthread, but it looks like both Ford and GM have had some decent ramp of EV sales in the full year. GM looks more like a slight uptick from 2H to 1H, but Ford looks like they nearly doubled their sales for the second half of the year.

Obviously a rough estimate puts them each at only about 10% of the numbers Tesla did over the course of the year, but they're accelerating...

 

[day_trippr]

Pretty sure 2023 was the first full year of Ford F150 Lightning production, where 2022 was a half year at most (1st delivery was in June 2022).
That could explain Ford's ramp...

Cheers!

 

[doug293cz]

Brew on

 

[Bilsch]

not as high right now.
-in "deep winter" actual range is about a third of maximum range.

Not going to dispute your opinions of EV ownership in Finland because I don't live there but I am going to call BS on your range loss in cold figures. I've owned my Model S for 6 years and have driven many times in -20 weather as I live in a northern state. I've never seen even a 20% loss in range much less 66%. I think you pulled that number out of cold air.

 

[Airborneguy]

Yeah that 1/3 claim was wild.

 

[Broothru]

Yeah that 1/3 claim was wild.

Maybe if you used constant defrost, had the cabin temperature at 90F/30C, and used seat heaters….

 

[Bilsch]

Maybe if you used constant defrost, had the cabin temperature at 90F/30C, and used seat heaters….

Maybe if you did that in a Bolt or Mach E you might could double your range loss. And dragged an anchor.

 

[sibelman]

In my mild winters I've seen ~20% range reduction in both a 2012 Leaf and 2018 Bolt.

 

[Kharnynb]

not my numbers, my neighbour's. He drives an older model 3 and says that unless he uses it every day, the battery just doesn't stay charged below -15.

 

[Bilsch]

In my mild winters I've seen ~20% range reduction in both a 2012 Leaf and 2018 Bolt.

Cars with no or poor battery thermal management systems, like the models you mentioned, are the worst. However in brands where these things are engineered correctly then low temps will be of no concern.

 

[Bilsch]

not my numbers, my neighbour's. He drives an older model 3 and says that unless he uses it every day, the battery just doesn't stay charged below -15.

Then there is something wrong with his vehicle and he should seek service because that is not normal.

 

[sibelman]

engineered correctly

Compromises must be made. Good battery temperature management, (and heat pumps for cabin HVAC), are highly desirable features, especially in harsh climates. I'm not sure it's completely correct to call their absence incorrect, but I certainly hope my next EV has both.

 

[Bilsch]

Compromises must be made. Good battery temperature management, (and heat pumps for cabin HVAC), are highly desirable features, especially in harsh climates. I'm not sure it's completely correct to call their absence incorrect, but I certainly hope my next EV has both.

Fair enough.

 

[sibelman]

It would be interesting to see some kind of apples-to-apples comparison of season/weather (temperature) impact on the real world performance of various EVs, in terms of both range and battery longevity.

I assume that battery temperature management adds weight and cost, and helps most in extreme climates (e.g. Arizona, Savonlinna). Conversely, less valuable in moderate climates (e.g. Portland, OR).

Might not matter much: unlike cabin features like heated seats, it's probably impractical for manufacturers to offer battery temperature management as an option.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

Some of the Tesla folks know this stuff better than I do, but my understanding is that battery thermal management is pretty critical regardless of climate. Battery thermal management is important during charging I think both for charging speed and for battery longevity. People have talked about one of the big advantages of Tesla with the integration of the Supercharger network is that the car can be planning out your charging stops in advance. For the last couple of minutes as you're approaching the charger, the car is already doing the thermal management needed for most efficient charging.

Is additional thermal management needed for hot/cold climates? I don't know. But I think some level of thermal battery management has become "table stakes" if you want to participate in the EV market. Cars like the early Nissan Leaf generations have shown what happens if you don't do it.

 

[Agent]

Not going to dispute your opinions of EV ownership in Finland because I don't live there but I am going to call BS on your range loss in cold figures. I've owned my Model S for 6 years and have driven many times in -20 weather as I live in a northern state. I've never seen even a 20% loss in range much less 66%. I think you pulled that number out of cold air.

View attachment 838626

That chart is wild.

Especially that is only 32F vs 70F.

A -20F and 0F chart would be quite telling. I'm curious at what point the Tesla temperature management would fail to keep up.

 

[Thorrak]

That chart is wild.

Especially that is only 32F vs 70F.

A -20F and 0F chart would be quite telling. I'm curious at what point the Tesla temperature management would fail to keep up.

Hmmmm. As a Model Y owner, that chart seems a bit questionable.

 

[mashdar]

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/01/hertz-is-selling-20000-used-evs-due-to-high-repair-costs/
takeaways:

• Hertz is selling a bunch of EVs, links in article if want to shop. No idea where/how.
• People who rent Teslas appear to crash more?
• I wonder what typical fleet turnover is. The real question is whether vehicles are replaced, not that they're being sold.

Also, I just thought of Tesla's new PR campaign re autopilot-related accidents: "Teslas don't crash Teslas. People crash Teslas." PM me if you want to license that, Tesla!

 

[Bilsch]

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/01/hertz-is-selling-20000-used-evs-due-to-high-repair-costs/
takeaways:

• Hertz is selling a bunch of EVs, links in article if want to shop. No idea where/how.
• People who rent Teslas appear to crash more?
• I wonder what typical fleet turnover is. The real question is whether vehicles are replaced, not that they're being sold.

Also, I just thought of Tesla's new PR campaign re autopilot-related accidents: "Teslas don't crash Teslas. People crash Teslas." PM me if you want to license that, Tesla!

Out of 20,000 electric vehicles that Hertz is selling 607 are Teslas.

I can believe that people new to EV who jump in one and go might be more prone to crashing. The foot full on the gas is quite addictive and dangerous when you aren't used to it. Also beat it like you rented it probably applies here as well.

 

[day_trippr]

Out of 20,000 electric vehicles that Hertz is selling 607 are Teslas.

No. Currently "the company has over 700 EVs for sale" and of that, 673 are Teslas.
If one were to extrapolate that out to 20000 vehicles, over 19 thousand of them would be Teslas...

Cheers!

 

[Bilsch]

No. Currently "the company has over 700 EVs for sale" and of that, 673 are Teslas.
If one were to extrapolate that out to 20000 vehicles, over 19 thousand of them would be Teslas...

Cheers!

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tesla-cars-used-hertz-discount-ev-fleet/

 

[Bilsch]

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tesla-cars-used-hertz-discount-ev-fleet/

Guess it depends on what you read and where.

 

[mac_1103]

Guess it depends on what you read and where.

Or maybe it depends on how you read. "Hertz plans to sell 20,000 electric vehicles..." doesn't mean that they're selling all of them right now or that the ones that aren't listed yet don't include any Teslas.

 

[Thorrak]

I never understood why Hertz went all in on EVs unless it was purely a marketing thing. The awareness, technology, and infrastructure just isn’t there yet IMO. The way people use rental cars is often very different from how they use personal cars.