Recirculating hops in conical fermenter

[k-daddy]

**Update** Changed my setup to a Topsflo pump mounted directly to shorten the flow path. I also swapped out the silicone tubing for PVC to lessen any potential o2 infiltration. This time I recirculated only twice (5 minutes each time) with the valves about half open @50 F with 8psi fermenter pressure. Cold crashed after 36 hours. Racking to keg in a few days. We'll see...

 

[eric19312]

nicely done. Really like that design for flooding the pump. I'd still worry about oxygen ingress through the (now much shorter) silicone hose and in the pump connections but looks super promising. Perhaps you could use 6.5mm ID EVA Barrier tubing to get rid of the silicone. Looking forward to seeing how it works out. Also I think you can get @Bobby_M at Brewershardware to weld TC fittings onto that Topsflow pump head to further tighten up the closed loop from air ingress potential.

 

[k-daddy]

nicely done. Really like that design for flooding the pump. I'd still worry about oxygen ingress through the (now much shorter) silicone hose and in the pump connections but looks super promising. Perhaps you could use 6.5mm ID EVA Barrier tubing to get rid of the silicone. Looking forward to seeing how it works out. Also I think you can get @Bobby_M at Brewershardware to weld TC fittings onto that Topsflow pump head to further tighten up the closed loop from air ingress potential.

That's clear PVC tubing in the picture... I ditched the silicone tubing for the reasons you mention. My feeling is that under 8 psi of system pressure, the o2 won't be able to infiltrate the fittings/connections during the recirculation.

 

[eric19312]

That's clear PVC tubing in the picture... I ditched the silicone tubing for the reasons you mention. My feeling is that under 8 psi of system pressure, the o2 won't be able to infiltrate the fittings/connections during the recirculation.

The camlocks have me worried. I often see a bit of air bubbles in camlock lines even in systems that are not under any pressure.

 

[k-daddy]

The camlocks have me worried. I often see a bit of air bubbles in camlock lines even in systems that are not under any pressure.

Since I have positive pressure (8psi) pushing out from inside the system, wouldn't it be logical that if there was a failure in the camlock connection, beer would be leaking out rather than o2 getting in?

 

[Mousetrapbrewery]

Since I have positive pressure (8psi) pushing out from inside the system, wouldn't it be logical that if there was a failure in the camlock connection, beer would be leaking out rather than o2 getting in?

how are you getting 8psi pushing out from the inside? I recently just recirculated my beer for the first time,1/2 barrel batch so I did two 1 hour cycles. I kept it on 5-8psi but didn’t actively push any in. But wow does this make a difference. I used silicone tubing might switch to pvc just do be safe. Did you get yours on Amazon? I haven’t had any luck with tubing from Amazon not tasting funny. It’s been over two weeks and no discoloring from oxidizing. So it seems it works but I also used 9g of ascorbic acid in the mash so maybe that helped? But I purged the hell out to mine. Similar to your set up but with a riptide, silicone and longer tubing.

 

[k-daddy]

how are you getting 8psi pushing out from the inside? I recently just recirculated my beer for the first time,1/2 barrel batch so I did two 1 hour cycles. I kept it on 5-8psi but didn’t actively push any in. But wow does this make a difference. I used silicone tubing might switch to pvc just do be safe. Did you get yours on Amazon? I haven’t had any luck with tubing from Amazon not tasting funny. It’s been over two weeks and no discoloring from oxidizing. So it seems it works but I also used 9g of ascorbic acid in the mash so maybe that helped? But I purged the hell out to mine. Similar to your set up but with a riptide, silicone and longer tubing.

I pressure ferment at between 8-10 psi. Once I open up the valves, the recirculation portion (pump/tubing) pressurizes. Here is a link to the tubing used. Amazon.com: QuQuyi PVC Vinyl Tubing Lightweight Grade Plastic Tube, 5/8"ID X 3/4"OD Clear Heavy Duty Tube Hose, 3.28FT : Industrial & Scientific

 

[eric19312]

Since I have positive pressure (8psi) pushing out from inside the system, wouldn't it be logical that if there was a failure in the camlock connection, beer would be leaking out rather than o2 getting in?

I'm surely going to build one of these. Woke up at 5am wondering if I ordered all the parts it would be here in time for current batch lol. I'm struggling by the idea of using camlocks on my fermentor but can see advantage if you want to also use that pump for other purposes. I'm not sure I can use that Glacier tanks reducing fitting. But I found this at Norcal, curious if you think it will work (with a reducing bushing instead of the treaded full coupling you used to attach the keg post adapter)

https://www.norcalbrewingsolutions.com/store/Tri-Clover-2-Inch-x-Half-Inch-NPT-Female-Tee.html

 

[k-daddy]

I'm surely going to build one of these. Woke up at 5am wondering if I ordered all the parts it would be here in time for current batch lol. I'm struggling by the idea of using camlocks on my fermentor but can see advantage if you want to also use that pump for other purposes. I'm not sure I can use that Glacier tanks reducing fitting. But I found this at Norcal, curious if you think it will work (with a reducing bushing instead of the treaded full coupling you used to attach the keg post adapter)

https://www.norcalbrewingsolutions.com/store/Tri-Clover-2-Inch-x-Half-Inch-NPT-Female-Tee.html

That Norcal fitting won’t allow you to purge the lines/pump with co2 prior to recirculation. If you ferment under pressure, purge the system with co2, tighten all fittings and avoid using silicone tubing, I don’t think o2 infiltration will be an issue. As for the pump, that’s exactly what I do… it also provides the recirculation for my BIAB setup.

 

[eric19312]

Im not getting why I would not be able to purge. I'd put a gas ball lock post on the center of the T and an elbow to a camlock on the side. That would go to the PVC tube like you have, through the pump, to the racking arm. Seems easy enough to purge first with CO2 with the connection at the racking arm loosened, then to push the purge gas out with beer before starting the circulation.

 

[eric19312]

I also don't understand that picture in post #39. How do you get the wort to flow up through that mini valve on the right?

Not a big deal I have my pumps set for recirculation and sparge. This pump might be dedicated to dry hopping unless one of my chuggers dies during a brew day and then it might be nice to have it as a backup.

 

[k-daddy]

Im not getting why I would not be able to purge. I'd put a gas ball lock post on the center of the T and an elbow to a camlock on the side. That would go to the PVC tube like you have, through the pump, to the racking arm. Seems easy enough to purge first with CO2 with the connection at the racking arm loosened, then to push the purge gas out with beer before starting the circulation.

You're absolutely correct. Lesson learned?... have coffee before posting in the morning.

 

[k-daddy]

I also don't understand that picture in post #39. How do you get the wort to flow up through that mini valve on the right?

Not a big deal I have my pumps set for recirculation and sparge. This pump might be dedicated to dry hopping unless one of my chuggers dies during a brew day and then it might be nice to have it as a backup.

The pump takes the wort from the PU tube and sends it to the T & ball valves. With both in the open position, wort flows through the whirlpool fitting (main valve) as well as the recirculation (small valve). This open configuration is for the mash recirculation and allows throttling for both as needed. I built this based on the Brewhardware BIAB setup...works like a charm.

 

[eric19312]

got it! I must need more coffee too. haha I thought that 3 piece ball valve was on your pick up tube but now realize that is probably your whirlpool port while the pickup tube is around the corner out of the picture.

 

[k-daddy]

got it! I must need more coffee too. haha I thought that 3 piece ball valve was on your pick up tube but now realize that is probably your whirlpool port while the pickup tube is around the corner out of the picture.

Yes, the PU tube is on the left side of the kettle, upstream from the pump.

 

[TLaffey]

Next time I plan to do 2 recirculations, 1 day apart, for 10-15 minutes each time at approximately 1-2 GPM.

OK, I decided to give DH recirculation a try. Unfortunately, I missed noting the schedule described above, so after dumping yeast and with a very heavy DH load, I recirculated for 8 hours at a 50% duty cycle (i.e. each hour the pump was on for a half hour). YUCK! Not only over hopped but way over extracted. A 10G dumper.

From I what I've found in various descriptions, it looks like I can get good extraction in about 6-8 hrs, even at very low temps, maybe 40*F. So.... I'm thinking to try once more like this:

• Complete fermentation (fermenter will be at 10psi, 70*F)
• Chill to 40*F for 2days
• Drop yeast, raise temp to 55*F
• Add dry hops, about 50% of the amount I used previously (before recirculating)
• Recirculate for 1 minute per hour for 6 hours. Using a March pump I expect about 1-2 GPM flow when throttled some
• Reduce temp to 32*F for one day
• Transfer to kegs -- maybe filtering in the transfer

I want to reduce the risk of ruining another batch ahead of Thanksgiving festivities, so would appreciate feedback on this procedure from those who have been successful with DH recirculation.

Also, has anyone tried a similar method at different tempreatures that can comment on the sensory difference between, say, 40*F vs 65*F?

 

[k-daddy]

OK, I decided to give DH recirculation a try. Unfortunately, I missed noting the schedule described above, so after dumping yeast and with a very heavy DH load, I recirculated for 8 hours at a 50% duty cycle (i.e. each hour the pump was on for a half hour). YUCK! Not only over hopped but way over extracted. A 10G dumper.

From I what I've found in various descriptions, it looks like I can get good extraction in about 6-8 hrs, even at very low temps, maybe 40*F. So.... I'm thinking to try once more like this:

• Complete fermentation (fermenter will be at 10psi, 70*F)
• Chill to 40*F for 2days
• Drop yeast, raise temp to 55*F
• Add dry hops, about 50% of the amount I used previously (before recirculating)
• Recirculate for 1 minute per hour for 6 hours. Using a March pump I expect about 1-2 GPM flow when throttled some
• Reduce temp to 32*F for one day
• Transfer to kegs -- maybe filtering in the transfer

I want to reduce the risk of ruining another batch ahead of Thanksgiving festivities, so would appreciate feedback on this procedure from those who have been successful with DH recirculation.

Also, has anyone tried a similar method at different tempreatures that can comment on the sensory difference between, say, 40*F vs 65*F?

That’s more recirculating than I’ve ever done. Not sure if you already dumped the batch but if not, time and cold temperature may help soften the bite. I would think there’s a fair amount of hop particles still in suspension causing the sharp taste. I’ve had a few batches that I considered dumping but I let them age and they ended up tasting ok after a couple of weeks. The last few batches, I’ve been blowing co2 up through the dump valve to get the hops back in suspension. Seems to work well and much less work.

 

[TLaffey]

That’s more recirculating than I’ve ever done. Not sure if you already dumped the batch but if not, time and cold temperature may help soften the bite. I would think there’s a fair amount of hop particles still in suspension causing the sharp taste. I’ve had a few batches that I considered dumping but I let them age and they ended up tasting ok after a couple of weeks. The last few batches, I’ve been blowing co2 up through the dump valve to get the hops back in suspension. Seems to work well and much less work.

I haven't dumped it yet--and it has improved over a few weeks. But it just tastes "wrong", so it's likely to go when I need the room.

I previously "burped" from the bottom of the fermenter (post 26 in this thread). Sounds like you have given up on the recirculation, so perhaps I'll go back to the tried and true. For this batch I could burp 3x/day over ~3 days, instead of recirculating.

 

[FunkedOut]

@TLaffey Not sure if you're still around, but I wanted to ask what was your dry hop rate on the 10G dumper batch? How many oz of hops per gallon?
I am about to recirculate my dry hop for the first time and was searching the net for info just like yours.
Glad I found this and didn't ruin my next batch.
Thanks for sharing.

I've dry hopped a 15G batch at rates up to 2oz per gallon and never get enough aroma and taste.
I can see the hop pellets collecting down at the bottom of the conical inside 1 hour of dropping them and they stay compacted like that for 4-5 days.
I have tried temps from 32*F all the way up to 69*F with no noticeable difference.
I need to stir them up some.

 

[TLaffey]

@TLaffey Not sure if you're still around, but I wanted to ask what was your dry hop rate on the 10G dumper batch? How many oz of hops per gallon?
I am about to recirculate my dry hop for the first time and was searching the net for info just like yours.
Glad I found this and didn't ruin my next batch.
Thanks for sharing.

I've dry hopped a 15G batch at rates up to 2oz per gallon and never get enough aroma and taste.
I can see the hop pellets collecting down at the bottom of the conical inside 1 hour of dropping them and they stay compacted like that for 4-5 days.
I have tried temps from 32*F all the way up to 69*F with no noticeable difference.
I need to stir them up some.

I used a boatload of hops on this batch:
7.5oz Ahtanum 3.8%AA
3oz Galaxy 15.9%AA
2oz CTZ 13.3%AA

My notes aren't super clear to me now, but it looks like the first recirculation was done 18hrs after the hops were added to the fermenter. I don't think I'd wait that long again.

If I were to try recirculated DH again I'd try 3 (4?) recirculations at 55*F (ale yeast) for 1-2 minutes each 12hrs apart, followed by cold crash. Part of the yuck factor could be that I restarted fermentation with my combination of time and heavy hop dose. ALDC enzyme might help.

I'm interested in what you decide to do and how it turns out.

 

[FunkedOut]

I'm a fan of lagers; much more so than ales.
I thought that maybe that was what was holding my dry hop aroma and flavor back, but after brewing a few with Imperial Juice, I found no joy.
There are plenty of commercial dry hopped lagers out there that have that punch.
I was getting good results before when I was brewing 5 gallon batches.
I learned quickly that brewing a 15 gallon batch is not simply multiplying everything by 3; a lot changes!

I am thinking that any time spent with the hops compacted at the bottom is time wasted.
Based on what I've seen in my collection jar, 1 hour is the time is takes for the hop pellets to collect and compact at the bottom.
I'm leaning towards recirculating for 2 minutes every hour. Not sure how long to keep that up.
I was thinking my usual 4-5 days, but after reading about your experience, I may shorten that to a day or two.
Then cold crash and keg.

This brew is a nice 6% Festbier. 11IBUs at 90min and another 7IBU as whirlpool hops @165*F.
Regardless of common knowledge, I find I get bitterness from dry hops.
Trying to keep this below 25IBU.

Maybe 5oz of cryo for the dry hop?
If you believe the 2:1 ratio for cryo, then that works out to 2/3oz per gallon.
Your brew ran 1.25oz per gallon.

This lager fermentation is going nicely.
Should be done by the 29th after a short rest at 69*F.
I'll bring the temp down to 32*F by the 6th, and harvest the yeast before I start the dry hop.
I'll post back what I decide.

(I know a dry hopped Festbier is far from traditional. I am far from Munich. This is for drinking, not competing.)

 

[TLaffey]

I put 12G into the fermenter, so my DH was close to 1oz/gallon.

Related to DH in general, it seems to me there's a level of alcohol and possibly unfermented carbohydrate needed to hold the hops in the beer. I haven't been able find any research on this. My guess is that 6% is at the lower limit of ABV for what I want, along with a high-ish FG.

Cryo seems like a good move. More hops, less time.