Overboiling and hop leavings

[Nick Z]

Greetings!

I just finished my second batch of beer. And it would seem I am repeating the mistakes I made the first time.

I should add that I am doing one gallon recipes only for now. That is what my equipment will handle (possibly two gallons if I push it) and my stove can heat. And I want to try several different recipes.

Anyway, the problem I have run into is that it seems I am boiling too hard. After sparging I have about five quarts of wort and then I boil it for sixty minutes. But in both batches I end up with not enough wort. Only about a half or 3/4 of a gallon.

It would seem I am reducing it too much. But I don't know what the proper boiling temperature is or how hard a boil I should have. I read somewhere to use a "low rolling boil." To me a rolling boil means a boil that doesn't stop when you stir it. I've also read that if you don't boil at a high enough temperature that the hops won't give up bitterness and you won't get "hot break". Which I think is characterized by foam that tries to boil out of the kettle.

It's also possible I am not getting enough liquid from the sparge. I did the standard "run sparge water over it" (at 170 degrees) and then run the wort back through the grains. And it's taking a long time to get all the liquid out. Should I stir up the grains to encourage them to give up their liquid?

There must be a happy medium of some kind.

The other concern I have, because it is so obvious, is that there appears to be a lot of hop crud in my wort after putting it in the fermenter. I strained the wort through a fine mesh strainer before cooling it and it's still there. Is that a problem? Do I need to strain again, through something even finer? Do I need to strain it through cheesecloth or something?

My colander/strainer setup is getting the grains out after sparging but the hops elude me. I am hoping that the hops and such will fall to the bottom after fermentation and I can just rack the beer off of the lees/trub/whatever the right word is.

Sorry this is so long and rambling. Thanks in advance.

 

[Steveruch]

You can add more water if the boil leaves you short of your goal.
Hops start bittering at 185f.

 

[Rackrunner]

I'll preface this with a caution that I really don't do small batches, so please take with a grain of salt!

For the boil: Boiling off 2 or 3 quarts in an hour doesn't sound outrageous for a 60 minute boil. You do want a nice rolling boil as you mention, but you could try throttling it back a little bit. Do you do gravity readings post-boil? If the gravity is on target pre and post boil, it can change the approach a bit, especially if you've got volume and heating limitations in your setup.

To start: The total amount of water you use (mash+sparge) is important for any recipe, and needs to take into account the amount of water absorbed by the grains as well as boil off rate. What volumes and gravity does the recipe call for, and are you hitting them pre and post boil?

If your post boil gravity is higher than anticipated (or you don't mind a weaker beer), you can always just add some top-up water into the fermenter. I think most recommend either boiling and cooling the top-up water or using sealed bottled water to avoid contamination.

If your post boil gravity is where you want it, it gets a bit tougher. You would need to scale up the amount of grains a little bit along with more water either in the kettle (if you can) or as top-up water as above.

The "hop crud" in the fermenter probably isn't that big of the concern - it should settle out enough to rack off the top of it after fermentation. You could try letting the wort settle and using a racking cane with a hop bag over the tip or something similar, but given sufficient time in the fermenter and time to settle if you have to move it when racking, it really shouldn't be an issue.

 

[McKnuckle]

Here are some stats from my one gallon setup for your reference:

When I do one gallon batches, I start with about 1.8 gallons of water and, let's say, 2 lbs of grain. I use a bag with this setup, and do not sparge. All of the water is in the mash. Try it - it's much easier with a small batch to just do a full volume mash.

Alternately, you could mash with 1.3 gallons and sparge with 0.5. Same thing in terms of total volume.

After the bag drains to a drip, I will suspend it over a pail on a colander to collect a little more while I heat to a boil. I don't squeeze the bag. When the boil is getting closer, I will pour whatever else was collected into the kettle. My grain absorption rate is about 0.09 gallons per pound with this procedure. So with 2 lbs of grain, I've lost 0.18 gallons, and 1.62 gallons of wort goes into the boil.

My small kettle has a diameter of 9", and boils off just under a half gallon an hour (0.47). Therefore in one hour, I'm down to 1.15 gallons. Hops will absorb a fraction more - let's ignore that for now - and a hydrometer sample will steal 0.03 gallons. So I'm down to about 1.1 gallons into the fermenter.

Your setup won't be identical, but a lot of this can be easily translated to your setup. These details show how you can basically count backwards from what you want in the fermenter.

As for your boil vigor, don't obsess. Boiling means the surface is constantly agitated. You don't need rolling foam or tsunamis in there. You will get normal hop utilization with a gentle boil.

 

[Nick Z]

I'll preface this with a caution that I really don't do small batches, so please take with a grain of salt!


If your post boil gravity is higher than anticipated (or you don't mind a weaker beer), you can always just add some top-up water into the fermenter. I think most recommend either boiling and cooling the top-up water or using sealed bottled water to avoid contamination.

If your post boil gravity is where you want it, it gets a bit tougher. You would need to scale up the amount of grains a little bit along with more water either in the kettle (if you can) or as top-up water as above.
.

I am in the middle of a boil so I will reply more later but: I took the gravity of the last wort and it was 1.080. The recipe called for 1.050. When I added water I actually hit that gravity almost perfectly.

 

[Nick Z]

Thanks for the replies. I just put this next batch into the fermenter. I had the exact same issue. I only had half the volume I was supposed to have. I topped it up with water because I needed to fill the jug but I'm sure this dilutes flavors, especially hop flavors, terribly.

I kept the heat lower this time but still at medium high. The pot I was using had a smaller diameter. Same thing.

I didn't measure the actual amount of wort I had pre-boil. I think there are marks on this pot (it's an old pressure cooker pot that holds about six quarts) to show four and six quarts. I had it up to about six quarts. By the time I was done and the hops filtered out I'd say I had two quarts. I must have boiled off too much of it. What's odd is that I added water twice during the boil to try and bring it up. Next time I will measure the precise amount of wort going into the boil.

I don't have a lid that really fits for this pot. I'm not even sure it's kosher to keep a lid on. I read somewhere that you need to let the kettle be open during the boil to get rid of nasty compounds that affect flavor.

There was a lot of foam when I poured the sample into the hydrometer flask so I couldn't get a reading. But I *think* it was hovering somewhere around 20% potential alcohol. Which is insane. I wanted a strong beer but not that strong. Even if the yeast could eat all of that (which they couldn't) it would probably taste more like jet fuel than beer. I'm guessing after I diluted it with distilled water it will end up around the 5% or so the recipe is looking for. Which would suggest I basically boiled off a ton of the water.

This is pissing me off and what's pissing me off is that the problem isn't with the ingredients or the recipe or the equipment. This has to be something I am doing wrong and stupidly.

I guess I'll keep trying at lower heats. Maybe I'll settle for a simmer or take the temperature reading and try to keep it around 190 degrees.

This time I ran the wort through three mesh strainers. The first, large one, was to collect the hops and sparge the wort through the hops. The second was just running it through a fine mesh strainer. The third was an even finer strainer. What I caught on the third strainer wasn't much. It seemed to be hop dust. I snagged about a tablespoon or so.

There is still gunk that has already settled to the bottom of the fermenter. Maybe this is normal for beer wort.. I'm used to cider which usually has minimal gunk at the bottom until the yeast ferments it.

Some more information though:

The pale ale batch I brewed today is not pale. It's rather dark, actually. Way more dark than a pale ale should be. The batch I just finished it a little lighter but not much. This leads me to think I am applying too much heat and caramelizing the sugars in the wort. In other words: Burning them. But it's very difficult to get an idea of what color the wort is when boiling. The hops turn everything green.

Lastly... the first batch I made from the Brooklyn Brew Shop Everyday IPA kit. I pitched the yeast and it took off within about an hour. Now, about 24 hours later, it appears to be done fermenting. I don't know if I have a stuck fermentation or whether it really is... that fast. I know it tossed a lot of crud out of the blow off tube.

 

[McKnuckle]

It is actually pretty difficult to dramatically screw up the way you're describing. You are not burning sugars. Your boil is not special - and I mean that in a helpful way. It's just like everybody's else's boil. Pale ale wort is not always pale. It may be an ugly brown, actually. After fermentation and setting, it should clarify to the proper color. Are you sharing your recipe here in this thread? That usually helps people help you.

Nobody monitors their boil by temperature. A boil is a boil, and if it's too vigorous, just nudge it down. You just have to get much better at measuring your boil-off rate and other volumes. Do a run with plain water at the exact heat settings you'll use when brewing, and calculate the starting and ending volumes. The difference is your boil-off rate. Here's a tip you don't always hear which works extremely well: Don't measure by volume markers in the vessel; measure by weight. Weigh your starting water in kg, which just happens to equal its volume in liters. After the boil, do the same. Subtract. Voila.

You should have about a half gallon boil-off per hour in a small pot, general guideline (1.89L).

Regarding your hydrometer; just be patient. Of course there is some foam. You spin the hydrometer to break some of the bubbles, and then simply let it settle while you do other things. And don't forget to correct for temperature using an online calculator such as the ones at Brewer's Friend. Most hydros are calibrated for 60ºF, some for 68º. Also, we don't use the potential alcohol scale. We use the SG scale. A starting gravity would be in the 1.030-1.080 zone, typically dead in the middle for a 5% beer.

You're using some weird terminology here - "Sparge the wort through the hops" - is not something that is done. Sparging comes before the boil, before the hops are part of the picture. Do you just mean "Pour" the wort?

When putting your wort in the fermenter, just filter it once to catch the large hop debris and stop obsessing about it. Capture the vast majority of the wort and allow settling to take care of it, which it will, as it does for thousands of other brewers! There are a million threads here on HBT about the lack of need to filter trub, really at all, but certainly not more than a reasonable effort's worth.

 

[Nick Z]

Thank you. I'll post the recipe here with my divided measurements. I am using the recipes from The Complete Joy of Homebrewing. The ones I have made are Akka Lakka Pale Ale and Wild Women pale ale. Each one is five gallons so I divided everything by five. I ended up using gram measurements and my teeny scale for measuring most stuff.

As I understand it, Papazian says to run the boiled wort through a strainer to catch the hops. And then to pour that strained wort back over the hops once. I believe he called it sparging (which I understand is different from sparging the grains with water). I actually wondered if that step was necessary. To quote from his recipes: "Strain, sparge, and transfer immediately to your primary fermenter." This is after the wort cooling stage. Which I am doing with an ice bath and that method seems to work reasonably quickly.

I may start jacking up the amount of water by 25%-50% to give myself some wiggle room.

I'm surprised I am screwing up the boil as I thought that was one of the simpler tasks in the brewing process.

 

[McKnuckle]

Each one is five gallons so I divided everything by five.

Everything except water! Water doesn't scale like malt and hops.

This is because, given the same kettle, with a constant boil-off rate of, say, 1 gal/hr, starting with 10 gallons will produce 9 gallons (10% evaporation). And starting with 5 gallons will produce 4 gallons (20% evaporation). Starting with 2 gallons produces only 1 gallon (50%).

So you cannot scale the water; or better stated, you can only scale the finished volume of wort, not the initial volume of water. Initial volume of water has to be calculated based on the losses in your process to produce the desired volume at the end. Check out my first post on your thread where I broke those down.

I may start jacking up the amount of water by 25%-50%

Don't guess - calculate.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

There is a short video here [link] that shows different boil intensities.

This time I ran the wort through three mesh strainers. ...

Are you fermenting in a 1 gal carboy?

 

[Nick Z]

Yes. I am using one gallon glass jugs as the primary and eventually secondary fermentation.

I apologize for asking such a stupid question but... When putting the wort into the primary fermenter do I just pour it in or do I need to siphon it in? Because I have just been pouring it all in

 

[Rackrunner]

The extra info is helpful Nick_Z and don't let it get you *too* pissed off Figuring out the specifics for any setup is just part of the process.

It sounds like the recipe was scaled for 5 gallons, and you divided by 5, meaning the bitterness from hops as well as the sugars from the grains should now be scaled for 1 gallon. If you've boiled off too much, you have over-concentrated the wort - adding top up water will likely end up more positive than you think. When you boil wort it's (mainly) the water that is evaporating, the sugars stay, as well as most of the bitterness from early hop additions.

As others said, measuring the water is an important next step, and agree it's better to either do this by weight or use a pre-marked yardstick of some kind to make it easier to measure while it's on the stove.

I would avoid boiling with the lid on and just go for a simmer rather than a rolling boil as you said.

The 'gunk' going into the fermenter sounds normal, and will likely settle out given enough time and a nice cold crash. I know many people just dump the entire kettle contents into the fermenter to settle rather than worry about trying to collect crystal clear wort.

On the color of the previous batches: If you really did scorch the wort, you'd see the burned sugars on the bottom of the kettle, but that's probably not the issue (or at least not the only issue!). 1) Boiling off too much water will concentrate the wort, and it will be much darker as a result 2) The color will change significantly once everything settles out after fermentation. Oxygen exposure after racking and boil temp could potentially play a role as well but 1 and 2 would be my guess in order.

I don't know about 24 hours even for that small of a batch, perhaps others can comment. The key is to make sure the gravity is stable over a couple days, and in the expected range.

 

[camonick]

Deficiencies in your water volumes need to be accounted for somewhere in your process as @McKnuckle points out above. If you’re consistently short into your fermenter, more water needs to be added somewhere earlier in the process. If you’re serious about the hobby and you don’t already use one, I’d recommend getting any of the brewing recipe calculators available. Once your equipment parameters are properly entered, the numbers they produce are usually quite accurate. I would also recommend using a hop bag in your boil to help reduce the stress from that. https://www.morebeer.com/products/drawstring-mesh-bag-6-8.html
Pouring wort into the fermenter is ok because it introduces oxygen into it which is good for proper fermentation, then ALWAYS siphon it after that.
Making beer shouldn’t make you mad, frustrating from time to time, but not mad.
Sláinte

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I pitched the yeast and it took off within about an hour. Now, about 24 hours later, it appears to be done fermenting. I don't know if I have a stuck fermentation or whether it really is... that fast. I know it tossed a lot of crud out of the blow off tube.

I don't know about 24 hours even for that small of a batch, perhaps others can comment.

With dry yeast, I have brewed some small batches where visible fermentation finished very quickly and the actual FG for the batch ended up in the estimated range.

 

[McKnuckle]

Regardless of what you think is going on with the beer, once it's in primary don't touch it for one solid week. If there is yeast and sugar present, the former will reduce the latter to the extent that it is able. Stuck ferments are pretty rare, and it's highly unlikely that you have one. What's the temperature of the fermentation? Hopefully in the 60-70F range.

Brewers discuss equipment a lot, but the most important piece of gear to possess is actually patience. New brewers are, predictably, terrible about that. But most of us learn eventually to suppress our desire to always be doing something to the beer.

Back to water volumes again; when I brew I always include extra volume for two hydrometer samples, which total about one cup of extra liquid. I take one for original gravity, and one after 7-10 days of fermentation, regardless of batch size. I ferment my one gallon batches in a larger vessel, at least 1.4 gallons in size.

The point of your earliest batches is not really to make great beer. It's to learn how things work. So I hope you're observing and thinking about the problems you're seeing so you can fix them - sometimes with equipment changes, and sometimes with process.

 

[Nick Z]

The fermentation temperature is the house temperature which is 72 degrees F. I have a small area where I ferment my cider that stays between 63-64 degrees. I just moved one of the fermenting batches to that area to try and slow things down a bit. I will take a gravity reading of the kit batch tomorrow.

I've got to be screwing up something with the water. I divided everything by five. Even the water. I even switched to liters and milliliters to make division easier. And the original recipes (from The Complete Joy of Homebrewing) provided both imperial and metric units in it. I'm less accustomed to metric units but they are easier for me to weigh and calculate in small amounts.

I think I figured out where I got the idea not to siphon off the final wort. I got it from the Everyday IPA instructions. I kind of figured that was the basic way you do things in one gallon batches so I basically did that.

Here has been my process.

Mash for 60 minutes. I try to keep the temperature at around 150 degrees F. I have a very hard time keeping it steady. And the temperature varies according to what part of the pot I am measuring. Therefore I stir frequently. At the very end I push it to around 170.

I pour the mash, liquid and grains, into a 10 inch fine mesh strainer or a somewhat larger colander over a bucket. The vast majority of the liquid strains out within a minute or two.

I take my strike water, which I have heated to 170 degrees and pour it over the grains in the strainer. I think I am doing this too quickly because I usually pour it in about one minute. Then I collect the liquid and pour it back over the grains. I read about that in one of my books.

At the end I am left with liquid. I tip the strainer this way and that a little to get as much of the liquid out as I can. Last time I think I ended up with close to six quarts. I didn't precisely measure it. Next time I will measure all outputs.

Boil for sixty minutes. I try to keep it at a rolling boil and do the hop additions according to the recipe. At the 10 minutes left mark I put in a pinch of Irish moss, as the recipe directs.

When the boil is done I pour through a fine mesh strainer to get the hops out. Then pour the wort back over the hops again.

At the end of this I have been left with about two or three quarts. The SG is higher than the recipe says it should be.

I dump the pot the wort is in into an ice bath. This cools it to 70 degrees F within about 15 to 20 minutes. I sometimes stir the wort to help release heat and get even cooling.

Somewhere in there I rehydrate the yeast and take a gravity reading.

I pour the wort via a funnel into a one gallon glass jug. I've had a significant quantity of foam. And almost immediately I see tons of gunk settle into the bottom of the jug.

I put a sanitized cap on it and shake for a while to aerate the wort. Then I pitch the yeast with some DAP or Fermaid K and fit a blow off tube or airlock.

So far I have seen vigorous fermentation within 24 hours. On the first batch, made with the Everyday IPA kit, I saw yeast activity almost immediately. It was weird, actually.

I've been listening to some podcasts and I think I've made some terrible mistakes in the following areas:

Sparging. I don't think I am sparging correctly. I've done a little reading about fly sparging and batch sparging and batch sparging sounds like a better method for me.

Getting the wort into the fermenter. Besides running the wort through a strainer I am not letting it settle and then siphoning off the clear part. I am just dumping the whole thing into the fermenter.

I must be boiling too hard. The "pale ale" extract/grain hybrid recipe I did is not pale. It's dark amber. I fear I burnt/caramelized the sugars in the wort in addition to concentrating them too much.

I just downloaded Beer Smith. I am going to see if it can take a five gallon recipe and automatically scale down all the ingredients, water included, automatically if I change the batch size from five gallons to one gallon. I figure that will be more accurate than me with a calculator. Software is less likely to output human error.

Even if I don't type in a recipe I was hoping to pull some from the cloud and be able to instantly recalculate everything from five to one gallon on the fly. Or perhaps to 1.5 or 2 gallons or whatever.

What's frustrating isn't the beer making process. I rather enjoy it. What frustrates me is that I can't seem to get a handle on something as simple as pre-packaged kit with simplified directions or a basic extract recipe. I like to think I'm a reasonably intelligent person. Why can't I do this correctly?

 

[camonick]

I just downloaded Beer Smith. I am going to see if it can take a five gallon recipe and automatically scale down all the ingredients, water included, automatically if I change the batch size from five gallons to one gallon.

BeerSmith will only give you the correct figures if you properly set up your own specific “equipment profile”. You really need to take the time to figure out what your boil-off rate is. Add a precisely measured amount of plain water (say 6 quarts) to the pot you’re using to boil your wort in, boil at the same intensity and time you’ve been using up until now, cool, and precisely measure what’s left. The missing water is your “boil-off”.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

I've got to be screwing up something with the water. I divided everything by five. Even the water.

I did not read all that massive wall of text...but as said earlier, water volume is the biggest item that does not scale from 5 gals to 1 gal batches. With my 5 gal batches on my propane burner I boil off around 1 gal per hour. With my 1 gal batches on my stovetop I boil off around 0.7 gals per hour...not the 0.2 gals I would have if I just divided my 1.0 boil off volume by 5.

If you don't already know your boil off rate from your prior batches, I would suggest that you fill your pot with 2 gals of water (or whatever fits). Be sure to measure this accurately. Boil it for a fixed time (say 20 mins) then measure the amount that you have left (after you cooled it to the same temp of the water you started with ideally).

Another option...if you end up 0.5 gal short, just add 0.5 gal extra water up front.

 

[Nick Z]

I'll do the plain water boil using the exact amounts in the recipe and see what i come up with. I will also triple check my figures as far as amounts.

Thanks for the suggestions. And I apologize for the long post.

 

[Nick Z]

I just tasted the Everyday IPA kit beer when racking it to secondary. It's pretty awful. It leaves an unpleasant aftertaste. And there is very little hop flavor. Which I attribute to having to add water after the boil to bring it up to correct volume. I dumped a couple of pellets of Cascade hops in secondary to see if dry hopping improves it. It can't hurt at this point.

Try, try again.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I just tasted the Everyday IPA kit beer when racking it to secondary. It's pretty awful.

It's certainly interesting tasting beer (make sure wort is pasteurized before tasting) as it moves through the brewing process. My experiences are that the beer gets better as it moves through the process.

That being said, a hard concentrating boil will impact the flavor and transfers that introduce oxygen will (sooner or later) impact the flavor.

Don't be afraid to dump a beer you don't enjoy. If you dump the batch, consider saving a few bottles to sample once a month.