New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[beervoid]

I pulled this profile from the Tree House yeast thread, and didn't see anyone complaining about it.

That's what brewing literature claims, multiple sources I can't quote. Have never tested it out myself, but looking at the end profile of tree house beers there is definately not alot of sodium in there.

 

[LumberZach]

That's what brewing literature claims, multiple sources I can't quote. Have never tested it out myself, but looking at the end profile of tree house beers there is definately not alot of sodium in there.

Grain and fermentation alter those numbers greatly.

 

[beervoid]

Grain and fermentation alter those numbers greatly.

Yes but not sodium

 

[LumberZach]

Yes but not sodium

Guess there's only one way to find out.

 

[beervoid]

Guess there's only one way to find out.

Yes keep us posted, I know there are other breweries that do use sodium, I think Hill Farmstead was speculated to go fairly high 50ppm or so, above 50 is where it starts to clash with sulfates if I remember correctly

 

[Dgallo]

I pulled this profile from the Tree House yeast thread, and didn't see anyone complaining about it.

@beervoid for personal reference, my water profile I use is practically identical and there is nothing wrong or astringent in flavor. Sodium enhances mouthfeel and brightens character. My na / so4 are usually as follows;

Na: 75-85 ppm
So4: 100-125 ppm

 

[beervoid]

@beervoid for personal reference, my water profile I use is practically identical and there is nothing wrong or astringent in flavor. Sodium enhances mouthfeel and brightens character. My na / so4 are usually as follows;

Na: 75-85 ppm
So4: 100-125 ppm

Nice, its only theorethical what I read, never really felt the need to push sodium myself.
I've been playing with potassium iodide but im not sure I like it. Pretty hard to evaluate water profile with hop bomb beers.
I did go high in a stout without problems but no sulfate.

 

[beervoid]

@beervoid for personal reference, my water profile I use is practically identical and there is nothing wrong or astringent in flavor. Sodium enhances mouthfeel and brightens character. My na / so4 are usually as follows;

Na: 75-85 ppm
So4: 100-125 ppm

How high do you go in chlorides?

 

[couchsending]

Sodium and sulfate clash

only at elevated levels

 

[couchsending]

Nice one! I would be curious to know how long the haze will be stable.
I heard in a Yakima webinar, I think it was with Creature Comforts that its definitely related to yeast health and the amount in suspension when dryhopping.

Only beers we’ve had clear are ones made with low floccing yeast. We make a few single hop pale ales with our Kölsch yeast that will clear over time.

 

[couchsending]

Malt can add up to 40ppm of Sodium. I generally don’t go above 50ppm on top of that.

Doubt Treehouse is using any sodium. I believe their additions are CaSo4, CaCl, and MgSo4. 3 or 4 to 1 So4 to Cl.

Their finished beer Ca levels tend to be low as I bet they only add Ca salts to the mash and their water most likely has decent amount of alkalinity. If that’s the case you will lose a ton of Ca in the mash. If you’re not adding Ca salts to the kettle then you will end up with lower Ca in the finished beer but the other ions will make it through.

 

[secretlevel]

Malt can add up to 40ppm of Sodium. I generally don’t go above 50ppm on top of that.

Doubt Treehouse is using any sodium. I believe their additions are CaSo4, CaCl, and MgSo4. 3 or 4 to 1 So4 to Cl.

Their finished beer Ca levels tend to be low as I bet they only add Ca salts to the mash and their water most likely has decent amount of alkalinity. If that’s the case you will lose a ton of Ca in the mash. If you’re not adding Ca salts to the kettle then you will end up with lower Ca in the finished beer but the other ions will make it through.

Damn, that's straight up WC IPA profile, will give this a shot.

 

[beervoid]

Malt can add up to 40ppm of Sodium. I generally don’t go above 50ppm on top of that.

Doubt Treehouse is using any sodium. I believe their additions are CaSo4, CaCl, and MgSo4. 3 or 4 to 1 So4 to Cl.

Their finished beer Ca levels tend to be low as I bet they only add Ca salts to the mash and their water most likely has decent amount of alkalinity. If that’s the case you will lose a ton of Ca in the mash. If you’re not adding Ca salts to the kettle then you will end up with lower Ca in the finished beer but the other ions will make it through.

Wasn't the local water tested there very soft though?

 

[couchsending]

Damn, that's straight up WC IPA profile, will give this a shot.

Yes and No

Pliny actually has slightly more CaCl additions than CaSo4 for example.

Think a lot depends on your final gravity. Most TH beers have FG north of 1.014. I think for beers like that more CaSo4 helps the drink ability and reduces the perceived sweetness. For beers they finish closer to 1.008 (like Pliny) a bit more CaCl helps to fill out the body that’s lacking from a lower final gravity.

Also if had to guess I’d say most Treehosue beers are carbed at close to 2.7 before they go in the can so maybe 2.6ish in the can. Same for HF. It’s easy to tell when you pour a can into a glass there is so much carbonation. Hard to not pour with a ton of foam.

 

[couchsending]

Wasn't the local water tested there very soft though?

what’s “soft” exactly. Pretty sure TDS isn’t exactly low. Even if they have sort of soft water you could still have alkalinity levels north of 50. If you’re not using acid to adjust and only relying on salts in the mash to lower mash ph then you can lose a ton of Ca from alkalinity/calcium reaction as well as Ca just getting bound up with the malt.

 

[beervoid]

what’s “soft” exactly. Pretty sure TDS isn’t exactly low. Even if they have sort of soft water you could still have alkalinity levels north of 50. If you’re not using acid to adjust and only relying on salts in the mash to lower mash ph then you can lose a ton of Ca from alkalinity/calcium reaction as well as Ca just getting bound up with the malt.

Don't remember the TDS, I cant find the post but someone who lives near one of the breweries tested the water. Didn't know alkalinity can be high when water is soft.

 

[VikeMan]

Didn't know alkalinity can be high when water is soft.

Alkalinity can be high, along with low Calcium and Magnesium (the two "hardness" ions), if the water is also high in sodium, though it's not very common naturally. (But it's very common as the output of a water softener.)

 

[beervoid]

Alkalinity can be high, along with low Calcium and Magnesium (the two "hardness" ions), if the water is also high in sodium, though it's not very common naturally. (But it's very common as the output of a water softener.)

Yet sodium on tree house beers is low. Highest one was around 60 I think from which 40ppm +/- is from malts.

 

[Dgallo]

Nice, its only theorethical what I read, never really felt the need to push sodium myself.
I've been playing with potassium iodide but im not sure I like it. Pretty hard to evaluate water profile with hop bomb beers.
I did go high in a stout without problems but no sulfate.

So my profile is a build off of my analyzes tap water. I start higher in Ca at 61 ppm and and about 15 mg. So in order to adjust both my Cl and So4 without pushing my Mg or Ca too high, I need to use some NaCl to hit my target Cl levels while avoiding using MgSo4 so my mg doesn’t get elevated

How high do you go in chlorides?

I’ve been a little all over the place recently trying to dial it in. So I’m anywhere from 175-250

 

[beervoid]

So my profile is a build off of my analyzes tap water. I start higher in Ca at 61 ppm and and about 15 mg. So in order to adjust both my Cl and So4 without pushing my Mg or Ca too high, I need to use some NaCl to hit my target Cl levels while avoiding using MgSo4 so my mg doesn’t get elevated


I’ve been a little all over the place recently trying to dial it in. So I’m anywhere from 175-250

I've had great results at 250 chloride in terms of mouthfeel but it does get salty at that point

 

[Northern_Brewer]

• Calcium - 20ppm

I get terrible efficiency for some reason brewing these. Always have

Well calcium that low is not going to help your efficiency, calcium is needed to stablilise the mash enzymes. And a bunch of other stuff, per Fix :

Calcium ions also tend to afford thermal protection for mash enzymes (Comrie, 1967). IN addition, they continue to interact with malt phosphate during wort boiling, and the ongoing reaction between calcium and phosphate is the primary reason that the pH decreases in the kettle boil. Calcium ions also tend to inhibit color formation during the boil and facilitate protein coagulation. Finally, calcium ions also influence beer fermentation.

OT, but Crisp have officially announced that chit malt will be joining their core range after a limited release in the UK last year. They've been doing some fun small-batch releases lately, including toasted malted oats and Haná Vienna.
https://crispmalt.com/malts/chitmalt/(yes that is the right URL if you click through to it, they just hadn't changed the HTML headers from the light Munich page that they obviously cloned for chit malt so the "preview" version is wrong)

 

[Dgallo]

Well calcium that low is not going to help your efficiency, calcium is needed to stablilise the mash enzymes. And a bunch of other stuff, per Fix :

Calcium ions also tend to afford thermal protection for mash enzymes (Comrie, 1967). IN addition, they continue to interact with malt phosphate during wort boiling, and the ongoing reaction between calcium and phosphate is the primary reason that the pH decreases in the kettle boil. Calcium ions also tend to inhibit color formation during the boil and facilitate protein coagulation. Finally, calcium ions also influence beer fermentation.

OT, but Crisp have officially announced that chit malt will be joining their core range after a limited release in the UK last year. They've been doing some fun small-batch releases lately, including toasted malted oats and Haná Vienna.
https://crispmalt.com/malts/chitmalt/

I figured that was a typo as he would be unable to get to such a low calcium with his other ppms

 

[aaronm13]

While we're on the subject of water chemistry I'm just wondering is there any benefits for adding the sparge salts to the boil instead of the sparge? I add to the sparge but heard a few brewers recently say the hold back on these salts till the start of the boil.

 

[LumberZach]

I figured that was a typo as he would be unable to get to such a low calcium with his other ppms

Not a typo. I'm also using Potassium Chloride to get my numbers.

 

[hopfenstopfen]

Not a typo. I'm also using Potassium Chloride to get my numbers.

What’s the source of the KCl?

 

[LumberZach]

What’s the source of the KCl?

KCl powder

 

[Dgallo]

Not a typo. I'm also using Potassium Chloride to get my numbers.

Isn’t that what they use for lethal injections?!?!? Obviously at the extreme concentrations.

do you have any literature on using it? I’d be interest in reading what potassium brings to a beer

 

[LumberZach]

Isn’t that what they use for lethal injections?!?!? Obviously at the extreme concentrations.

do you have any literature on using it? I’d be interest in reading what potassium brings to a beer

LOL, I'm not sure. I know people sprinkle it over food as a salt replacement.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

Maybe I haven't read this thoroughly but why would you want to have lower calcium content... it is a key component in the mash. I lower my alkalinity with phosphoric acid before and salts to retain as much calcium as possible throughout the brewing process. I am on a private well and drop my alkalinity from 100ppm down to usually 20 or so.

 

[Frieds]

Has anyone used both LA3 & British Ale V and noticed any discernible difference?

 

[Fergal]

Maybe I haven't read this thoroughly but why would you want to have lower calcium content... it is a key component in the mash. I lower my alkalinity with phosphoric acid before and salts to retain as much calcium as possible throughout the brewing process. I am on a private well and drop my alkalinity from 100ppm down to usually 20 or so.

A while back I felt like I was getting a chalkiness to my beers so I now intentionally keep the calcium below 100 and usually around 80-90. I have to use Na to keep everything else in check. I've been happier with my beers at this range but having said that every beer I brew is usually very different from the last so I couldn't say I'm dialing anything in! Once upon a time I asked Sam from Other Half if they used Na with their water profile and got a firm no for what its worth.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

I'm sure like anything else, to much of anything is no good for you... I suppose my CA levels have never been that high, I don't have my latest profile in front of me at the moment but I know CA was under 100 so I suppose that's why i never had the need to avoid it.

 

[Dgallo]

I'm sure like anything else, to much of anything is no good for you... I suppose my CA levels have never been that high, I don't have my latest profile in front of me at the moment but I know CA was under 100 so I suppose that's why i never had the need to avoid it.

You should be relatively good with ca under 120 and that’s my cut off. Around 140 ppm is where I personally can notices a mineral character that is astringent. Some people have higher threshold. I also read that ph can also influence the perception of it

 

[marc1]

A while back I felt like I was getting a chalkiness to my beers so I now intentionally keep the calcium below 100 and usually around 80-90. I have to use Na to keep everything else in check. I've been happier with my beers at this range but having said that every beer I brew is usually very different from the last so I couldn't say I'm dialing anything in! Once upon a time I asked Sam from Other Half if they used Na with their water profile and got a firm no for what its worth.

Does calcium have a flavor? I didn't think it did but it would be pretty easy to test. Maybe I'll try dosing RO water with calcium and sodium chloride to equivalent levels of chloride and see what I get.

 

[Dgallo]

Does calcium have a flavor? I didn't think it did but it would be pretty easy to test. Maybe I'll try dosing RO water with calcium and sodium chloride to equivalent levels of chloride and see what I get.

Don’t forget you that you will gain alot of calcium from grains so you won’t hit the threshold by dosing water alone to say 150 ppms

@mabrungard could you chime in on calcium ion concentrations and it’s impact in perceived flavor

 

[wepeeler]

Been a while since I contributed anything here. We were fortunate to brew a beer with Cellarmaker earlier this month and we just released it today. It’s a mash up of how we brew our highly hopped 5% beers and what they call Hazy WC Pale Ale. A lot of similarities to the recipes I was contributing here for a while. Clean yeast, present bitterness, permanent haze but no wheat or oats. Full mouthfeel for 5%. All about the hop character. Lots and lots of hop character. Here’s the recipe if anyone would like to try it at home.

Guest Experience
Hazy WC Pale Ale

Rahr 2 Row
20% Pils
-ideally European to help cut FAN down
8% Carafoam
2% crisp Caramalt
1-2% Acidulated

1.052/1.014
Yeast: ECY Old Newark
-the grandfather of most American Yeasts (Ballantine)

mash: 154/162/168

I forget the water profile exactly, pretty sure
100ish Ca
4-1 So4 to Cl
NaCl targeting 50ppm Na

mash pH 5.35-5.45
Preboil ph 5.2-5.3

Simcoe @ 30
HBC586/Simcoe WP @195-200
3

(we usually do larger 30 minute additions and lower WP to 180)

50ish IBUs

KO ph target of 5.0

Ferment at 66 for 3 days then freerise to 68/70 for D rest. Remove yeast, cool to 66 and add DH. 1.3oz/gallon DH all at once. Rouse next day. Remove hops the next day and check for creep/diacetyl. If none then cool to 32 removing more hops.

DH: 60% HBC586 T-90
17% Simcoe
17% Centennial
6% HBC586 Cryo

We keep alternating between DH at 55 vs DH at warmer temps. We had a beer end up with that rotting melon character (otherwise known as hop stank) that was dry hopped at 55 and have been scaredof it ever since. Think it was more yeast health related but time will tell. We consider it an off flavor so try to avoid it at all costs.

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Looks awesome!

 

[Clyde McCoy]

looking forward to brewing with these today -

 

[Noob_Brewer]

looking forward to brewing with these today -

View attachment 763505

what's in the cry pop blend?

 

[R.A.I.D]

what's in the cry pop blend?

It is a mix of Cryo extracts from different US hops. Combined to cover a wide range of survivable hop compounds. The exact composition is secret and might chance from year to year depending on the analysis of the components of the hops each year.

That was the mix I was trying to replicate using T90 hops in my last brew. Combined with dry hop and then Citra Cryo in the keg that brew did really pop out in aroma and flavor.

 

[BongoYodeler]

looking forward to brewing with these today -

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Interested in hearing any thoughts on the POP hops. I added a couple ounces onto a recent order but haven't decided how I'm going to use them.