New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[TooDogly]

I don't know if you're right, but how do you know that:

1 - a keg filled with air, then filled with priming solution, then purged

is any better than

2 - a water purged keg, with beer racked into it, then the lid opened, and priming solution added.

My gut tells me #2 would actually be less exposed because the head space is so much less. This is exactly the type of claim that need to be vetted. Does it even matter if you keg condition??

I agree with you about #2. I think the point of keg conditioning was to remove that final "shot glass of air" worth of O2 though metabolism.

 

[jakturner]

I'm looking to make a dank IPA with Columbus, Apollo, and simco or equinox. has any one tried this with this base? With the goal of making it dank and not juicy, would I be just better off with the traditional dry west coast set up?

 

[Gentlemans_Ale]

I'm looking to make a dank IPA with Columbus, Apollo, and simco or equinox. has any one tried this with this base? With the goal of making it dank and not juicy, would I be just better off with the traditional dry west coast set up?

Columbus, Apollo, and Simcoe would fall in line with Heady's speculated hops so you'd still have a great East Coast style. Pearl Malt and maybe Caramalt with Conan would work well with the water profiles in this thread.

 

[Braufessor]

In regard to the LoDO brewing ..... I am "familiar" with the concept and I whole-heartedly agree that O2 is bad news for beer. I have not looked into a lot of the recent LoDO home brewing strategies.... well, simply because I haven't had time.
I guess my number one question would be this -

Are people getting their home brew tested for DO before/during/after these procedures are put in place? I would be curious to see actual lab results.

If they are not getting their beer tested for comparison of DO at various stages using various strategies..... how do they actually know any of it works, and to what extent? The idea that "I, personally, can tell the difference with my beer"....is extraordinarily unreliable.

I get it at the commercial scale where the equipment can accomplish these procedures, and actually measure data accurately - but, at the homebrew scale - is that really being done?

Again - not to say that O2 is not worth worrying about. It absolutely is. There are lots of places to eliminate and reduce O2. It absolutely can and will ruin beer. But, I wonder about the actual "measurable" difference in some of this.

I hope @Brulosopher tackles some of this from both the anecdotal perspective of "can people taste a difference" and from the perspective of actual lab results. It would be really interesting and informative. At what point do we move from solid, simple steps that reduce O2 easily and makes a difference..... to the point where we are going to extraordinary measures that result in no perceivable or measurable differences (based on actual testing and data collection, as opposed to "my beer tasted better to me."

 

[grassfeeder]

I wanted to chime in just to say that I think my batch is showing signs of oxidation. It's definitely getting darker. I bottle.

Has anyone bottled this beer and maintained the bright yellow, juicy color? If so, I'd love to hear any tips for reducing oxidation.

Was thinking about bottling directly from the carboy by using conditioning pellets in each bottle to avoid the bottling bucket transfer.

I don't have any CO2. What's the smallest/cheapest way to buy it? No current plans to have a kegerator.

I would highly advise purging each bottle with C02 prior to filling it.

 

[stickyfinger]

I know you can get great tasting IPA that lasts for at least 6 wks in the keg with excellent flavor. I have done that with racking using a racking cane into a keg that has been completely purged of sanitizer by CO2. I've never tasted a bottle conditioned IPA that is as good as kegged Doesn't mean it can't be done I suppose.

It would be great to see if more can be done for us keggers post-fermentation. I can't imagine having a better tasting IPA up to the point where we are about to keg. If I could keep that flavor for more weeks, it would be great. Has anyone tested keg-conditioning IPA vs force carbonating? Right away I'd notice that you are losing 1-2 weeks of prime drinking, waiting for it to carbonate. Maybe the active yeast make up for that lost time on the other end?

 

[EndOfLine]

I don't know if you're right, but how do you know that:

1 - a keg filled with air, then filled with priming solution, then purged

is any better than

2 - a water purged keg, with beer racked into it, then the lid opened, and priming solution added.

My gut tells me #2 would actually be less exposed because the head space is so much less. This is exactly the type of claim that need to be vetted. Does it even matter if you keg condition??

I should have added that the serving keg is purged before I add the priming solution. I fill the keg full of sanatizer and pump it out with co2 via picnic tap. So now it's full of co2. Then I'll open the top, add the solution and purge the keg, several times. Then I'll close transfer the beer into it with a jumper.

 

[mintyice]

In regard to the LoDO brewing ..... I am "familiar" with the concept and I whole-heartedly agree that O2 is bad news for beer. I have not looked into a lot of the recent LoDO home brewing strategies.... well, simply because I haven't had time.
I guess my number one question would be this -

Are people getting their home brew tested for DO before/during/after these procedures are put in place? I would be curious to see actual lab results.

If they are not getting their beer tested for comparison of DO at various stages using various strategies..... how do they actually know any of it works, and to what extent? The idea that "I, personally, can tell the difference with my beer"....is extraordinarily unreliable.

I get it at the commercial scale where the equipment can accomplish these procedures, and actually measure data accurately - but, at the homebrew scale - is that really being done?

Again - not to say that O2 is not worth worrying about. It absolutely is. There are lots of places to eliminate and reduce O2. It absolutely can and will ruin beer. But, I wonder about the actual "measurable" difference in some of this.

I hope @Brulosopher tackles some of this from both the anecdotal perspective of "can people taste a difference" and from the perspective of actual lab results. It would be really interesting and informative. At what point do we move from solid, simple steps that reduce O2 easily and makes a difference..... to the point where we are going to extraordinary measures that result in no perceivable or measurable differences (based on actual testing and data collection, as opposed to "my beer tasted better to me."

Didn't mean to derail this thread.

People on the german brewing forum are using dissolved oxygen meters during every step of the process. They are focusing on minimizing oxygen uptake during every step which is admirable, but they are mainly focused on retaining malt character.

From reading a lot of their info, LoDO seems out of reach for many brewers unless you are willing to rebuild your rig and measure along the way.

If we are adapting their methods, it should mainly be for our process during and after fermentation. Fermenting in sealed corny kegs, spunding, sealed transfers, etc.

A theory I'm kicking around is the use of brett either for 100% of fermentation, or added after, in order to scavenge as much excess O2 as possible to prolong shelf life. Fruity brett stains, especially under pressure, can amplify the tropical aromas and flavors we want from NEIPA. So what if we can boost the juicy character we desire and keep that flavor alive longer?

A year or so ago I did a NEIPA with a blend of 1318 and Brett C which was really tasty. The flavor kept changing during the life of the keg, but not in the normal staling kind of way. The 1318 faded and the C kind of took over. Of course if we are finishing these kegs in less than a month, brett won't have enough time to turn from fruity to funky (hopefully).

 

[olotti]

As a guy who only bottles and has been brewing these NEIPA's I've done everything I can to reduce O2 exposure and from what I've found is the beers are basically done after a month meaning they lose hop character and start to turn the brown color which is obvious of oxidation. I never had an issue with oxidation until i started brewing these really hoppy beers with low floccing yeast and higher flaked grains until I started brewing these beers. So I thing there's def something that correlates to the amount of hops and yeast in suspension that also acdepts the 02 at various points and it ruins the beer faster. Case in point I make a apa kinda a blonde grain bill but hop it up to 55 Ibu no hopstand and a minimal dry hop and that thing lasts for 2 months and is crystal clear with no off flavor a but yet my hoppy me style IPAs with big hop stands and dry hops last a month before they change. There's def evidence that I've seen that o2 somehow binds to the hop matter and yeast in suspension faster than a lower Ibu hopped beer.

 

[droder1]

379035[/ATTACH]View attachment 379036View attachment 379038View attachment 379039

How do you liquid purge with shortened diptubes?

 

[hopbrad]

I'm looking to make a dank IPA with Columbus, Apollo, and simco or equinox. has any one tried this with this base? With the goal of making it dank and not juicy, would I be just better off with the traditional dry west coast set up?

i do this combo alot and love it. Columbus, apollo, simcoe and usually mosaic, gives me heavy dank, some melon and a touch of tropical. It goes well with Conan. I cant speak for other strains. sometimes ill throw in citra if i want a brighter passion fruit hop punch.

 

[schematix]

How do you liquid purge with shortened diptubes?

I only liquid purge the serving keg. The fermentation vessel doesn't matter.

For anyone wanting a visual, here's how my process works. I think this is the easiest way to get low oxygen and EASY to rack kegging set up. Kegs are cheap ($50) and highly pressure capable, so i think they are the ideal fermentation vessel.

Step 1: Turn a standard corny keg into 1 of each a Fermentation Vesssel (FV) and Serving Keg (SK).


To make the FV all you do is bend the liquid dip tube to reach the side wall of the keg. This should put you about an inch off the bottom so you'll avoid all the yeast. You can refine the amount of bend after a few brews.

For both an SK and FV you cut the GAS dip tube flush with the inside of the keg. This equates to removing approx 1/2" of the dip tube. The gas dip tube is nothing more than an o-ring holder. For the FV, shortening this by 1/2" gives you even more head space, which equals another 1-2 beers into the SK. For lagers i can fill the keg up past the top weld and have 0 blow off.

Step 2: Water purge the SK
This is easier than it sounds.

Clean the SK with PBW or whatever. Starsan is optional. Fill the SK to the brim with water, then install the lid with PRV closed. Install a gas disconnect to the gas side, and liquid disconnect to the liquid side. The liquid side should be connected to a water source.

Tilt the SK to a 45 degree angle with the gas port on the top. Slowly fill the remaining portion of the keg with water until it starts squirting out the gas disconnect. Rock the keg around a few more times to ensure all the bubbles are out. The lid in a corny is a HUGE gas pocket, that's why you are tilting it AND shortening the gas dip tube. Pull the PRV up to get the last of the air out and then close it again. Simultaneosly pull off the liquid and gas QD. You now have a keg 99.99% full of water.

Use commercial CO2 to push all the water out of the liquid dip tube. You now have a keg 99.98% full of CO2.


Step 3: Ferment


Add yeast and a few psi of pressure to the kegs. You need this pressure to keep the lid sealed. Set spunding valve to match. I like about 3.5 psi, but you could experiment here.

The idea of this set up is that you use all of the fermentation gas to continue to purge the serving keg.

Bonus: The added head pressure collapses the kraussen bubbles. My lager fermentations max at 1cm of kraussen, meaning i can nearly fill the keg tp capacity.

Step 4: Racking


Another easy step. With a few gravity points to go (4-6 ideally)...

Purge the hoses you use in this step with gas saved in the SK (attach, use your finger or screwdriver to push the poppet).

Elevate the FV above the SK. Connect the 2 liquid ports together and if flow didn't already start, pull the PRV slightly on the SK. Beer will start to flow. Then connect the gas side together to equalize the head pressure.

Set timer for 30 minutes and walk away.

When you return you'll have the SK completely full and the FV empty. At this point i usually disconnect everything, and then top the pressure off in the kegs to ~5 psi to ensure a good lid seal. Then back to wherever to finish the last few points and naturally carbonate.

This is the process for lagers. For ales you can do the same if you're not dry hopping, but the timing is much less forgiving (you need to catch it within a half a day window). If you don't have enough remaining fermentable extract then you need to crack the lid and add some.

I normally don't re-install my spund valve at this point again, but i do monitor the pressure every few days to see where its at and when it stops rising.

 

[schematix]

From reading a lot of their info, LoDO seems out of reach for many brewers unless you are willing to rebuild your rig and measure along the way.

I didn't go out and drop a fortune on a DO meter to test every step. Does this mean my system isn't LoDO? No, but it means i can't quantitatively tell you how good it is at LoDO. I CAN say it's good enough, but when it comes to getting it even tighter i'm flying blind.

There are some qualitative benchmarks that you can sense though if you're doing it right:
1. The mash is 100% odorless. Everyone here knows the aroma of a mash standard mash. Well with LoDO if you can smell it, you aren't LoDo. It's devoid of all aroma.
2. The color of the beers are ~2 SRM less. My pilsner went from yellow to light straw without a recipe change. My marzen went from brown to copper.
3. The flavor of the wort is bright and sweet in a unique way. There is a honey like flavor if you are using a significant amount of pilsner malt or pale malt.

The biggest hurdle I see is that success is only as good as your weakest link. If you do LoDO hot side then skip on the cold side, you've wasted your time. You have to do it all; you can't piecemeal it.

 

[JoeMamasIPA]

I am on board with all of this and think its a great way to cut down on packaging O2 but how do you dryhop or more specifically keg hop? Dryhopping with points left in fermentation taste very different from a keg hop, as it seems more muted or blended. I guess you could leave a dry hop bag in the SK during ferment but I would think the aromatics would be washed away by the 125ish gallons of fermentation CO2. Maybe just spund the FK until it is reeeeal close to finished and the dry hop the SK and tie it to the FK?

 

[rappinduke]

Might be a dumb question, but when purging kegs before filling them what's the difference between filling the keg completely with water or sanitizer and pushing it out with co2 and taking an empty keg hooking it up to co2 letting it fill the keg and pull the release valve a few times?

 

[schematix]

Might be a dumb question, but when purging kegs before filling them what's the difference between filling the keg completely with water or sanitizer and pushing it out with co2 and taking an empty keg hooking it up to co2 letting it fill the keg and pull the release valve a few times?

Mixing. Air and CO2 mix a lot.

It takes 20+ purges at 30 psi to purge a keg well enough... which is a lot

 

[Braufessor]

Didn't mean to derail this thread.

A theory I'm kicking around is the use of brett either for 100% of fermentation, or added after, in order to scavenge as much excess O2 as possible to prolong shelf life. Fruity brett stains, especially under pressure, can amplify the tropical aromas and flavors we want from NEIPA. So what if we can boost the juicy character we desire and keep that flavor alive longer?

A year or so ago I did a NEIPA with a blend of 1318 and Brett C which was really tasty. The flavor kept changing during the life of the keg, but not in the normal staling kind of way. The 1318 faded and the C kind of took over. Of course if we are finishing these kegs in less than a month, brett won't have enough time to turn from fruity to funky (hopefully).

No worries about "derailing"...... This is good info and certainly worth looking into. Oxygen is certainly the enemy of this beer.

I brewed a couple Saisons at the end of the summer that I was a bit disappointed in. They ended up with some banana esters that I just hate. Nothing terrible - I just, personally, hate banana in my beer. So, I bottled it with Brett C.....
Beer was finished and carbed..... 1.005 FG
I added an additional 2/3 cup priming sugar boiled in cup of H2O to the keg.
Then, I used beer gun to bottle it.
Added 1ml or a bit less of Brett C to each bottle.
Capped and let them sit.

6-8 weeks later they are great. All of the banana ester is gone. Clean, dry, crisp, tart.... a bit of brett, but nothing major.

Would be interesting with this beer to try it.

My initial concern would be that it would "dry" it out.... but I bet it would still be great. Just maybe different.

I have another Saison sitting in a keg I plan to do the same thing to. I used Brett Trois in Primary and kegged it. I am going to bottle it with Brett C. I currently have 15 gallons of NE IPA - all the same - citra/galaxy .... different water profiles. Maybe I will also bottle off a dozen or so bottles with brett C just to check it out.

 

[JJ900]

As a guy who only bottles and has been brewing these NEIPA's I've done everything I can to reduce O2 exposure and from what I've found is the beers are basically done after a month meaning they lose hop character and start to turn the brown color which is obvious of oxidation. I never had an issue with oxidation until i started brewing these really hoppy beers with low floccing yeast and higher flaked grains until I started brewing these beers. So I thing there's def something that correlates to the amount of hops and yeast in suspension that also acdepts the 02 at various points and it ruins the beer faster. Case in point I make a apa kinda a blonde grain bill but hop it up to 55 Ibu no hopstand and a minimal dry hop and that thing lasts for 2 months and is crystal clear with no off flavor a but yet my hoppy me style IPAs with big hop stands and dry hops last a month before they change. There's def evidence that I've seen that o2 somehow binds to the hop matter and yeast in suspension faster than a lower Ibu hopped beer.

Olotti this has been my experience as well, though I wonder if you didn't mean "lower IBU" but rather more hops in the boil, somewhat smaller dry hop? I think of some past extract clones that had double dry hops...pliny clone and heady topper clone, those had substantial double dry hops but both dry hops were added basically when ferment was done and I had no oxidation issues. I realize that the day3-6 dry hop is supposed to be part of the magic of these NEIPA's but I wonder if its problematic somehow under "normal" fermenting conditions without extra O2 control.

 

[scottconnor]

I brewed this on 11/6 and kegged it two weeks later on 11/20. I didn't have the equipment for a closed transfer, so I did what I could: I purged a keg with CO2, and then used my racking cane to fill the keg while covering the opening with a towel. Then I purged the keg when I was done.

I force carbed it and 24 hours later, this was the best beer I've ever made (40+ beers). I was drinking 3 a day and sharing it with everyone I could find. As soon as I opened the tap the room was filled with a hoppy, citrusy aroma.

About 11 days later, I started noticing around 12/1 that it was losing its aroma. It was still a great beer, but it wasn't the beer I was so excited and proud of on day 1. It's color hasn't changed, just the aroma.

This past weekend I brewed the exact same beer again (12/3). I'm planning on doing a closed transfer from primary to the serving keg this time. I'm hoping that a closed transfer will preserve the beer longer than 11 days.

What kind of shelf life are other people seeing? I'll be sure to report back on my open vs closed transfer experiment.

 

[Braufessor]

I brewed this on 11/6 and kegged it two weeks later on 11/20. I didn't have the equipment for a closed transfer, so I did what I could: I purged a keg with CO2, and then used my racking cane to fill the keg while covering the opening with a towel. Then I purged the keg when I was done.

I force carbed it and 24 hours later, this was the best beer I've ever made (40+ beers). I was drinking 3 a day and sharing it with everyone I could find. As soon as I opened the tap the room was filled with a hoppy, citrusy aroma.

About 11 days later, I started noticing around 12/1 that it was losing its aroma. It was still a great beer, but it wasn't the beer I was so excited and proud of on day 1. It's color hasn't changed, just the aroma.

This past weekend I brewed the exact same beer again (12/3). I'm planning on doing a closed transfer from primary to the serving keg this time. I'm hoping that a closed transfer will preserve the beer longer than 11 days.

What kind of shelf life are other people seeing? I'll be sure to report back on my open vs closed transfer experiment.

Awesome that the beer turned out well for you.

The biggest obstacle to shelf life for me remains my friends, my wife and myself I rarely have a keg that sees 5-6 weeks from brew day.

However, that said, I have found the following:
Weeks 1 and 2 = Fermentaition/Dry hopping
Week 3 = Kegging/Carbonating/Sampling - beer tastes great as soon as it is carbed.
Week 4 = Beer is in its prime
Week 5 = Beer is very good, but maybe not as good as last week
Week 6 = well..... this just does not happen much, as the kegs are almost always gone by now. But when it does, I would say the beer starts taking on more of a "pale ale" characteristic. Still good, but not the big tropical punch and full/smooth/rounded body that it previously had.

 

[RevKev]

I wonder if bottling with whole cone hops in the bottle would help with the lackluster aromatics. I mean one or two cones could be interesting

 

[mintyice]

I didn't go out and drop a fortune on a DO meter to test every step. Does this mean my system isn't LoDO? No, but it means i can't quantitatively tell you how good it is at LoDO. I CAN say it's good enough, but when it comes to getting it even tighter i'm flying blind.

There are some qualitative benchmarks that you can sense though if you're doing it right:
1. The mash is 100% odorless. Everyone here knows the aroma of a mash standard mash. Well with LoDO if you can smell it, you aren't LoDo. It's devoid of all aroma.
2. The color of the beers are ~2 SRM less. My pilsner went from yellow to light straw without a recipe change. My marzen went from brown to copper.
3. The flavor of the wort is bright and sweet in a unique way. There is a honey like flavor if you are using a significant amount of pilsner malt or pale malt.

The biggest hurdle I see is that success is only as good as your weakest link. If you do LoDO hot side then skip on the cold side, you've wasted your time. You have to do it all; you can't piecemeal it.

Not disagreeing with you at all. Braufessor wanted to know if people were measuring oxygen and not just thinking they tasted a difference, and I'm just stating that many who pioneered the LoDO technique are in fact measuring a lower amount of oxygen throughout their process by using a DO meter. I'm not saying you can't do LoDO without one, but it just shows that there is a quantifiable difference (lower measured DO, 0.5ppm vs 5+ppm) with the technique.

 

[stickyfinger]

I brewed this on 11/6 and kegged it two weeks later on 11/20. I didn't have the equipment for a closed transfer, so I did what I could: I purged a keg with CO2, and then used my racking cane to fill the keg while covering the opening with a towel. Then I purged the keg when I was done.

I force carbed it and 24 hours later, this was the best beer I've ever made (40+ beers). I was drinking 3 a day and sharing it with everyone I could find. As soon as I opened the tap the room was filled with a hoppy, citrusy aroma.

About 11 days later, I started noticing around 12/1 that it was losing its aroma. It was still a great beer, but it wasn't the beer I was so excited and proud of on day 1. It's color hasn't changed, just the aroma.

This past weekend I brewed the exact same beer again (12/3). I'm planning on doing a closed transfer from primary to the serving keg this time. I'm hoping that a closed transfer will preserve the beer longer than 11 days.

What kind of shelf life are other people seeing? I'll be sure to report back on my open vs closed transfer experiment.

I have a couple things to add here. My last NE IPA lasted about 6 weeks from kegging day. It still tasted very good up until that time, not as fresh as week 1-4, but really good.

1) When the beer is very, very young, it has a lot of yeast and actual hop particles in it. I find this stage to be the most delicious in some beers and other beers benefit from more of the yeast and hops settling, depends on the beer. Regardless, it only takes about 1-1.5 weeks to get past this stage.

2) Next comes the stage where the beer is super cloudy still, but it has lost of the yeast and hop particle character. It is a little smoother and super hoppy and delicious. Most beers I think are best at this stage.

3) Past this point, the beer starts very slowly getting just a little clearer. At 6 weeks from kegging I swear I can see through it, but then I realize it is just too hazy still, but you can tell it wants to clarify. It's just a slow, drawn-out clarification.

I think maybe the type of hops matter. Maybe certain hop character compounds degrade more quickly. Maybe the classic NE IPA hops have more of those compounds? Maybe the yeast plays a role in how long it stays fresh. I've had great luck with long-lasting beers using WLP095, Burlington Ale, but I don't know if that is just coincidence. I think the amount of dry hop probably matters. If you add 1 oz/gallon vs 2 oz/gallon vs maybe 3 oz/gallon, the beer will probably taste hoppier and fresher longer the more hops you add to a point. I might be wrong on that, but it seems to be the case from my experience. There is also an XBMT at Brulosophy that is in agreement with this.

Certainly, it will stay fresher if you fill up your serving keg with star san and then pump it all out with CO2 and transfer into that through the out QD. I just use a racking cane with no CO2 blanket into my primary. I also always chill the beer and then let air rush in as I take out the bung before racking. I could look into getting finicky with that I suppose.

I am very intrigued by this LODO. It could be possible that certain things we do or don't do all of the way from the milling on have an impact on how long the hoppiness lasts.

I am satisfied with 6 full weeks in the keg with very delicious beer, though changing in flavor over that time some. I can get this with the primary dry-hopping, racking to a fully purged keg and with around 2 oz/gallon of dry hops (no kettle hops other than bittering.) I would be interested to see if keg-conditioning vs. force carbonation gives any boost to the longevity. You'd have to keep the force carbonated beer at the same warm temp for the same amount of time as the keg-conditioned beer though, as the temperatures have to age the beer as well. Maybe it would be a toss-up.

I think for now I'll just try to plan to brew 10 gallon batches of NE IPA and brew enough that another 10 gallon batch is ready to drink right around the time I am finishing the previous batches. Then, I'll always have great IPA regardless of whether I can get beyond the 6 week mark!

 

[stickyfinger]

I am on board with all of this and think its a great way to cut down on packaging O2 but how do you dryhop or more specifically keg hop? Dryhopping with points left in fermentation taste very different from a keg hop, as it seems more muted or blended. I guess you could leave a dry hop bag in the SK during ferment but I would think the aromatics would be washed away by the 125ish gallons of fermentation CO2. Maybe just spund the FK until it is reeeeal close to finished and the dry hop the SK and tie it to the FK?

Yes, this is a major obstacle I think. How on earth do you transfer out of a 5 gallon keg when there is going to be a ton of hop debris and yeast at the bottom? Maybe use one of those floating devices so you draw off from the top of the liquid level down? I'd be afraid it would all clog. I suppose at that point you could just pull off the lid and rack it as usual.

If the early stages of LODO only impact the malt character, it is not worth it for this style IMHO. However, if something that gets oxidized early on can then stale the hop character later on, it would be interesting.

I'm not sure Brulosophy would be the best choice for doing this XBMT. It seems like it takes a ton of background knowledge and some hardware adjustments. I'd rather see Brulosophy team up with someone such as Schematix. He/she brews the beers and then Brulosophy administers the tasting. Of course, Schematix could do all of it if he/she had the time!

 

[g-star]

In regard to the LoDO brewing ..... I am "familiar" with the concept and I whole-heartedly agree that O2 is bad news for beer. I have not looked into a lot of the recent LoDO home brewing strategies.... well, simply because I haven't had time.
I guess my number one question would be this -

Are people getting their home brew tested for DO before/during/after these procedures are put in place? I would be curious to see actual lab results.

If they are not getting their beer tested for comparison of DO at various stages using various strategies..... how do they actually know any of it works, and to what extent? The idea that "I, personally, can tell the difference with my beer"....is extraordinarily unreliable.

I get it at the commercial scale where the equipment can accomplish these procedures, and actually measure data accurately - but, at the homebrew scale - is that really being done?

Again - not to say that O2 is not worth worrying about. It absolutely is. There are lots of places to eliminate and reduce O2. It absolutely can and will ruin beer. But, I wonder about the actual "measurable" difference in some of this.

I hope @Brulosopher tackles some of this from both the anecdotal perspective of "can people taste a difference" and from the perspective of actual lab results. It would be really interesting and informative. At what point do we move from solid, simple steps that reduce O2 easily and makes a difference..... to the point where we are going to extraordinary measures that result in no perceivable or measurable differences (based on actual testing and data collection, as opposed to "my beer tasted better to me."

100% this.

I suspect conformational bias will come in to play for those who say that it is a "step change" or "unbelievably better". I would want to believe that all that extra effort paid off in the end too.

We need controlled experiments and lab data.

 

[Braufessor]

100% this.

I suspect conformational bias will come in to play for those who say that it is a "step change" or "unbelievably better". I would want to believe that all that extra effort paid off in the end too.

We need controlled experiments and lab data.

Speaking of confirmational bias
I will be kegging my third IPA tomorrow where I tried 3 different water profiles. I dry hopped the last one last night. Other two are already carbed and on tap.
140Sulfate:70 Chloride (on tap)
70 Sulfate: 140 Chloride (on tap)
120:120 dry hopping (sampled when I moved from fermenter last night)

I "feel" like I can tell a bit of a difference between the high and low sulfate one... but, even that - it is not a huge difference at all - and that is with KNOWING the difference. I will try some triangle type tests blind and see if I can still tell. I am not that confident that I will be able to consistently tell the difference blind.

The 120:120 did taste different.... but, it was still getting dry hop #2 and it was flat, and room temp.... so, yeah - have to see how it stacks up when it is carbed and on tap.

One thing I think I do feel comfortable saying already is this: Whatever (if any) difference there may or may not be when all 3 beers are side by side - it is not a big difference, and it is not the difference between "good" and "bad". So, in my opinion, basically any numbers in the above range are going to get you a good NE IPA.

Once I have all 3 done, carbed, etc. I will try some blind tasting with friends and probably send some off to a few others to see what they think.

 

[stickyfinger]

Speaking of confirmational bias

I will be kegging my third IPA tomorrow where I tried 3 different water profiles. I dry hopped the last one last night. Other two are already carbed and on tap.

140Sulfate:70 Chloride (on tap)

70 Sulfate: 140 Chloride (on tap)

120:120 dry hopping (sampled when I moved from fermenter last night)



I "feel" like I can tell a bit of a difference between the high and low sulfate one... but, even that - it is not a huge difference at all - and that is with KNOWING the difference. I will try some triangle type tests blind and see if I can still tell. I am not that confident that I will be able to consistently tell the difference blind.



The 120:120 did taste different.... but, it was still getting dry hop #2 and it was flat, and room temp.... so, yeah - have to see how it stacks up when it is carbed and on tap.



One thing I think I do feel comfortable saying already is this: Whatever (if any) difference there may or may not be when all 3 beers are side by side - it is not a big difference, and it is not the difference between "good" and "bad". So, in my opinion, basically any numbers in the above range are going to get you a good NE IPA.



Once I have all 3 done, carbed, etc. I will try some blind tasting with friends and probably send some off to a few others to see what they think.

Have you ever tried adding spikes of salts to the serving glass to test sulfate/chloride levels?

 

[elbinwyp]

If you were to brew a NE IPA inspired extract version (I understand it wont be the same) and would only be doing late/flameout hop additions, does this even need an extended boil? Boil for sanitation and then cut flame?

 

[mintyice]

Yes, this is a major obstacle I think. How on earth do you transfer out of a 5 gallon keg when there is going to be a ton of hop debris and yeast at the bottom? Maybe use one of those floating devices so you draw off from the top of the liquid level down? I'd be afraid it would all clog. I suppose at that point you could just pull off the lid and rack it as usual.

I keg hop with a clear beer draught system keg float and it works great. I'll throw in loose pellets without a bag which gives better extraction of oils. Once you crash the beer, all the hops sink the bottom and it pulls pints from the top.

If the early stages of LODO only impact the malt character, it is not worth it for this style IMHO. However, if something that gets oxidized early on can then stale the hop character later on, it would be interesting.

It doesn't only impact malt flavor, just that's what most LoDo'ers are interested in when they talk about the 'elusive flavor'. Supposedly hops come across as a bit crisper/bitter, but the lagers people are brewing seem to be FWH/60min additions only, not huge whirlpool hop bombs. Again, I'd love to see this progress applied to NEIPA to see what flavors we are losing in a high DO environment hot side.

Speaking of confirmational bias
I will be kegging my third IPA tomorrow where I tried 3 different water profiles. I dry hopped the last one last night. Other two are already carbed and on tap.
140Sulfate:70 Chloride (on tap)
70 Sulfate: 140 Chloride (on tap)
120:120 dry hopping (sampled when I moved from fermenter last night)

I "feel" like I can tell a bit of a difference between the high and low sulfate one... but, even that - it is not a huge difference at all - and that is with KNOWING the difference. I will try some triangle type tests blind and see if I can still tell. I am not that confident that I will be able to consistently tell the difference blind.

The 120:120 did taste different.... but, it was still getting dry hop #2 and it was flat, and room temp.... so, yeah - have to see how it stacks up when it is carbed and on tap.

One thing I think I do feel comfortable saying already is this: Whatever (if any) difference there may or may not be when all 3 beers are side by side - it is not a big difference, and it is not the difference between "good" and "bad". So, in my opinion, basically any numbers in the above range are going to get you a good NE IPA.

Once I have all 3 done, carbed, etc. I will try some blind tasting with friends and probably send some off to a few others to see what they think.

This seems to line up with my own experience. It's just icing on the cake, not make or break as long as you aren't doing >200ppm sulfate. A high chloride version I did was a little slicker though.

 

[JoeMamasIPA]

Yes, this is a major obstacle I think. How on earth do you transfer out of a 5 gallon keg when there is going to be a ton of hop debris and yeast at the bottom? Maybe use one of those floating devices so you draw off from the top of the liquid level down? I'd be afraid it would all clog. I suppose at that point you could just pull off the lid and rack it as usual.

If the early stages of LODO only impact the malt character, it is not worth it for this style IMHO. However, if something that gets oxidized early on can then stale the hop character later on, it would be interesting.

I'm not sure Brulosophy would be the best choice for doing this XBMT. It seems like it takes a ton of background knowledge and some hardware adjustments. I'd rather see Brulosophy team up with someone such as Schematix. He/she brews the beers and then Brulosophy administers the tasting. Of course, Schematix could do all of it if he/she had the time!

Hmmm, I have one of those Clear Beer floating dispensers and it works really well. They also sell a 300 micron screen that fits over the inlet of it that really keeps the junk out. None of that solves the keg hop issue though. The novel solution would be putting the hops in a bag that dissolves when the beer hits it and you could just leave it in the serving keg that has the spund valve on it until ready for transfer.

 

[stickyfinger]

Looking through the LODO methods, I realize that I already do some of those things. I add sulfites to every mash, in excess, though not to the levels they are asking for. Seems like you'd get a lot of sulfur in the final beer!! I keep my mash covered. I guess I don't boil the water before brewing. I wet my malt before milling it. Maybe I'm getting some of the benefits of LODO without realizing it!

I never thought about it, but the CO2 we use to carbonate our beer, certainly contains some oxygen, but is it enough to cause observable flavor decreases? How do you serve the LODO beers if you don't use a CO2 cylinder? You have to get a yeast starter going and pump the CO2 from the starter into the keg, using a special yeast-starter-valve to serve your beer. ha ha ha! Sorry, LODudes, just teasing!

 

[EndOfLine]

Speaking of confirmational bias
I will be kegging my third IPA tomorrow where I tried 3 different water profiles. I dry hopped the last one last night. Other two are already carbed and on tap.
140Sulfate:70 Chloride (on tap)
70 Sulfate: 140 Chloride (on tap)
120:120 dry hopping (sampled when I moved from fermenter last night)

I "feel" like I can tell a bit of a difference between the high and low sulfate one... but, even that - it is not a huge difference at all - and that is with KNOWING the difference. I will try some triangle type tests blind and see if I can still tell. I am not that confident that I will be able to consistently tell the difference blind.

The 120:120 did taste different.... but, it was still getting dry hop #2 and it was flat, and room temp.... so, yeah - have to see how it stacks up when it is carbed and on tap.

One thing I think I do feel comfortable saying already is this: Whatever (if any) difference there may or may not be when all 3 beers are side by side - it is not a big difference, and it is not the difference between "good" and "bad". So, in my opinion, basically any numbers in the above range are going to get you a good NE IPA.

Once I have all 3 done, carbed, etc. I will try some blind tasting with friends and probably send some off to a few others to see what they think.

Finally! I have wanted these results for a long time now.

 

[EndOfLine]

If you were to brew a NE IPA inspired extract version (I understand it wont be the same) and would only be doing late/flameout hop additions, does this even need an extended boil? Boil for sanitation and then cut flame?

I just made and extract only NE pale for fun. 30 min boil only. You don't need an extended boil

 

[crusader1612]

Here's a question....
what are peoples processes for dry-hopping these beers?
a)- Fermentation and dryhop in primary
b)- Fermentation, early dryhop (peak fermentation), then dryhopped in primary
c)- Fermentation, dryhop in primary then rack to keg for second dryhop
d)- fermentation, rack to keg dryhop
e)- fermentation, peak ferm dryhop, rack to keg and dryhop
f)- fermentation, peak fermentation, dryhop in primary, rack to keg for a 3rd dryhop

when you dryhop in primary, do you use a bag?
when you dryhop in the keg, do you you a bag, or a stainless hopper

Obviously, people intend to harvest yeast where possible, and dryhopping makes that difficult if you dont use a hopper or a bag

 

[elbinwyp]

I just made and extract only NE pale for fun. 30 min boil only. You don't need an extended boil

Mind sharing your recipe and results?

 

[stickyfinger]

Here's a question....
what are peoples processes for dry-hopping these beers?
a)- Fermentation and dryhop in primary
b)- Fermentation, early dryhop (peak fermentation), then dryhopped in primary
c)- Fermentation, dryhop in primary then rack to keg for second dryhop
d)- fermentation, rack to keg dryhop
e)- fermentation, peak ferm dryhop, rack to keg and dryhop
f)- fermentation, peak fermentation, dryhop in primary, rack to keg for a 3rd dryhop

when you dryhop in primary, do you use a bag?
when you dryhop in the keg, do you you a bag, or a stainless hopper

Obviously, people intend to harvest yeast where possible, and dryhopping makes that difficult if you dont use a hopper or a bag

I just add all of my dry hops at one time to the primary when the yeast is just past the peak of fermentation or a few days past. I don't add kettle flavor/aroma hops anymore even. I save it all for the dryhop and have been very impressed with the results.

 

[EndOfLine]

Mind sharing your recipe and results?

Low abv extract NE pale:

6lbs pils dme
1lbs amber dme
6 gallons of RO water
Don't add any salts, extract of any kind already will have them from the extracts mash.

Choose a yeast that doesn't like to produce diacytel

30 min boil.
Any blend of hops 15 min
Same blend of hops flame out
Same blend on during fermentation
Same blend in Purged keg, rack beer onto it on day 10
Close transfer beer to serving keg day 14.
Cold crash.

If you want a higher abv version, use 9lbs of pils dme. I would suggest no more then 3 different kinds of hops unless you know what you doing.

 

[EMH5]

Here's a question....
what are peoples processes for dry-hopping these beers?
a)- Fermentation and dryhop in primary
b)- Fermentation, early dryhop (peak fermentation), then dryhopped in primary
c)- Fermentation, dryhop in primary then rack to keg for second dryhop
d)- fermentation, rack to keg dryhop
e)- fermentation, peak ferm dryhop, rack to keg and dryhop
f)- fermentation, peak fermentation, dryhop in primary, rack to keg for a 3rd dryhop

when you dryhop in primary, do you use a bag?
when you dryhop in the keg, do you you a bag, or a stainless hopper

Obviously, people intend to harvest yeast where possible, and dryhopping makes that difficult if you dont use a hopper or a bag

D. I dry hop in the serving keg... I just don't want to expose the beer to oxygen so I dry hop one time.

 

[duelerx]

Anyone has any experience using golden naked oats on this recipe?, i'm tempting to use it.

 

[ruascott]

I just add all of my dry hops at one time to the primary when the yeast is just past the peak of fermentation or a few days past. I don't add kettle flavor/aroma hops anymore even. I save it all for the dryhop and have been very impressed with the results.

Wait....you add no hops at all into the kettle (other than the bittering hops).

I don't see how you'd get much hop flavor from just a dry hop only.