New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[RevKev]

I wonder if bottling with whole cone hops in the bottle would help with the lackluster aromatics. I mean one or two cones could be interesting

 

[mintyice]

I didn't go out and drop a fortune on a DO meter to test every step. Does this mean my system isn't LoDO? No, but it means i can't quantitatively tell you how good it is at LoDO. I CAN say it's good enough, but when it comes to getting it even tighter i'm flying blind.

There are some qualitative benchmarks that you can sense though if you're doing it right:
1. The mash is 100% odorless. Everyone here knows the aroma of a mash standard mash. Well with LoDO if you can smell it, you aren't LoDo. It's devoid of all aroma.
2. The color of the beers are ~2 SRM less. My pilsner went from yellow to light straw without a recipe change. My marzen went from brown to copper.
3. The flavor of the wort is bright and sweet in a unique way. There is a honey like flavor if you are using a significant amount of pilsner malt or pale malt.

The biggest hurdle I see is that success is only as good as your weakest link. If you do LoDO hot side then skip on the cold side, you've wasted your time. You have to do it all; you can't piecemeal it.

Not disagreeing with you at all. Braufessor wanted to know if people were measuring oxygen and not just thinking they tasted a difference, and I'm just stating that many who pioneered the LoDO technique are in fact measuring a lower amount of oxygen throughout their process by using a DO meter. I'm not saying you can't do LoDO without one, but it just shows that there is a quantifiable difference (lower measured DO, 0.5ppm vs 5+ppm) with the technique.

 

[stickyfinger]

I brewed this on 11/6 and kegged it two weeks later on 11/20. I didn't have the equipment for a closed transfer, so I did what I could: I purged a keg with CO2, and then used my racking cane to fill the keg while covering the opening with a towel. Then I purged the keg when I was done.

I force carbed it and 24 hours later, this was the best beer I've ever made (40+ beers). I was drinking 3 a day and sharing it with everyone I could find. As soon as I opened the tap the room was filled with a hoppy, citrusy aroma.

About 11 days later, I started noticing around 12/1 that it was losing its aroma. It was still a great beer, but it wasn't the beer I was so excited and proud of on day 1. It's color hasn't changed, just the aroma.

This past weekend I brewed the exact same beer again (12/3). I'm planning on doing a closed transfer from primary to the serving keg this time. I'm hoping that a closed transfer will preserve the beer longer than 11 days.

What kind of shelf life are other people seeing? I'll be sure to report back on my open vs closed transfer experiment.

I have a couple things to add here. My last NE IPA lasted about 6 weeks from kegging day. It still tasted very good up until that time, not as fresh as week 1-4, but really good.

1) When the beer is very, very young, it has a lot of yeast and actual hop particles in it. I find this stage to be the most delicious in some beers and other beers benefit from more of the yeast and hops settling, depends on the beer. Regardless, it only takes about 1-1.5 weeks to get past this stage.

2) Next comes the stage where the beer is super cloudy still, but it has lost of the yeast and hop particle character. It is a little smoother and super hoppy and delicious. Most beers I think are best at this stage.

3) Past this point, the beer starts very slowly getting just a little clearer. At 6 weeks from kegging I swear I can see through it, but then I realize it is just too hazy still, but you can tell it wants to clarify. It's just a slow, drawn-out clarification.

I think maybe the type of hops matter. Maybe certain hop character compounds degrade more quickly. Maybe the classic NE IPA hops have more of those compounds? Maybe the yeast plays a role in how long it stays fresh. I've had great luck with long-lasting beers using WLP095, Burlington Ale, but I don't know if that is just coincidence. I think the amount of dry hop probably matters. If you add 1 oz/gallon vs 2 oz/gallon vs maybe 3 oz/gallon, the beer will probably taste hoppier and fresher longer the more hops you add to a point. I might be wrong on that, but it seems to be the case from my experience. There is also an XBMT at Brulosophy that is in agreement with this.

Certainly, it will stay fresher if you fill up your serving keg with star san and then pump it all out with CO2 and transfer into that through the out QD. I just use a racking cane with no CO2 blanket into my primary. I also always chill the beer and then let air rush in as I take out the bung before racking. I could look into getting finicky with that I suppose.

I am very intrigued by this LODO. It could be possible that certain things we do or don't do all of the way from the milling on have an impact on how long the hoppiness lasts.

I am satisfied with 6 full weeks in the keg with very delicious beer, though changing in flavor over that time some. I can get this with the primary dry-hopping, racking to a fully purged keg and with around 2 oz/gallon of dry hops (no kettle hops other than bittering.) I would be interested to see if keg-conditioning vs. force carbonation gives any boost to the longevity. You'd have to keep the force carbonated beer at the same warm temp for the same amount of time as the keg-conditioned beer though, as the temperatures have to age the beer as well. Maybe it would be a toss-up.

I think for now I'll just try to plan to brew 10 gallon batches of NE IPA and brew enough that another 10 gallon batch is ready to drink right around the time I am finishing the previous batches. Then, I'll always have great IPA regardless of whether I can get beyond the 6 week mark!

 

[stickyfinger]

I am on board with all of this and think its a great way to cut down on packaging O2 but how do you dryhop or more specifically keg hop? Dryhopping with points left in fermentation taste very different from a keg hop, as it seems more muted or blended. I guess you could leave a dry hop bag in the SK during ferment but I would think the aromatics would be washed away by the 125ish gallons of fermentation CO2. Maybe just spund the FK until it is reeeeal close to finished and the dry hop the SK and tie it to the FK?

Yes, this is a major obstacle I think. How on earth do you transfer out of a 5 gallon keg when there is going to be a ton of hop debris and yeast at the bottom? Maybe use one of those floating devices so you draw off from the top of the liquid level down? I'd be afraid it would all clog. I suppose at that point you could just pull off the lid and rack it as usual.

If the early stages of LODO only impact the malt character, it is not worth it for this style IMHO. However, if something that gets oxidized early on can then stale the hop character later on, it would be interesting.

I'm not sure Brulosophy would be the best choice for doing this XBMT. It seems like it takes a ton of background knowledge and some hardware adjustments. I'd rather see Brulosophy team up with someone such as Schematix. He/she brews the beers and then Brulosophy administers the tasting. Of course, Schematix could do all of it if he/she had the time!

 

[g-star]

In regard to the LoDO brewing ..... I am "familiar" with the concept and I whole-heartedly agree that O2 is bad news for beer. I have not looked into a lot of the recent LoDO home brewing strategies.... well, simply because I haven't had time.
I guess my number one question would be this -

Are people getting their home brew tested for DO before/during/after these procedures are put in place? I would be curious to see actual lab results.

If they are not getting their beer tested for comparison of DO at various stages using various strategies..... how do they actually know any of it works, and to what extent? The idea that "I, personally, can tell the difference with my beer"....is extraordinarily unreliable.

I get it at the commercial scale where the equipment can accomplish these procedures, and actually measure data accurately - but, at the homebrew scale - is that really being done?

Again - not to say that O2 is not worth worrying about. It absolutely is. There are lots of places to eliminate and reduce O2. It absolutely can and will ruin beer. But, I wonder about the actual "measurable" difference in some of this.

I hope @Brulosopher tackles some of this from both the anecdotal perspective of "can people taste a difference" and from the perspective of actual lab results. It would be really interesting and informative. At what point do we move from solid, simple steps that reduce O2 easily and makes a difference..... to the point where we are going to extraordinary measures that result in no perceivable or measurable differences (based on actual testing and data collection, as opposed to "my beer tasted better to me."

100% this.

I suspect conformational bias will come in to play for those who say that it is a "step change" or "unbelievably better". I would want to believe that all that extra effort paid off in the end too.

We need controlled experiments and lab data.

 

[Braufessor]

100% this.

I suspect conformational bias will come in to play for those who say that it is a "step change" or "unbelievably better". I would want to believe that all that extra effort paid off in the end too.

We need controlled experiments and lab data.

Speaking of confirmational bias
I will be kegging my third IPA tomorrow where I tried 3 different water profiles. I dry hopped the last one last night. Other two are already carbed and on tap.
140Sulfate:70 Chloride (on tap)
70 Sulfate: 140 Chloride (on tap)
120:120 dry hopping (sampled when I moved from fermenter last night)

I "feel" like I can tell a bit of a difference between the high and low sulfate one... but, even that - it is not a huge difference at all - and that is with KNOWING the difference. I will try some triangle type tests blind and see if I can still tell. I am not that confident that I will be able to consistently tell the difference blind.

The 120:120 did taste different.... but, it was still getting dry hop #2 and it was flat, and room temp.... so, yeah - have to see how it stacks up when it is carbed and on tap.

One thing I think I do feel comfortable saying already is this: Whatever (if any) difference there may or may not be when all 3 beers are side by side - it is not a big difference, and it is not the difference between "good" and "bad". So, in my opinion, basically any numbers in the above range are going to get you a good NE IPA.

Once I have all 3 done, carbed, etc. I will try some blind tasting with friends and probably send some off to a few others to see what they think.

 

[stickyfinger]

Speaking of confirmational bias

I will be kegging my third IPA tomorrow where I tried 3 different water profiles. I dry hopped the last one last night. Other two are already carbed and on tap.

140Sulfate:70 Chloride (on tap)

70 Sulfate: 140 Chloride (on tap)

120:120 dry hopping (sampled when I moved from fermenter last night)



I "feel" like I can tell a bit of a difference between the high and low sulfate one... but, even that - it is not a huge difference at all - and that is with KNOWING the difference. I will try some triangle type tests blind and see if I can still tell. I am not that confident that I will be able to consistently tell the difference blind.



The 120:120 did taste different.... but, it was still getting dry hop #2 and it was flat, and room temp.... so, yeah - have to see how it stacks up when it is carbed and on tap.



One thing I think I do feel comfortable saying already is this: Whatever (if any) difference there may or may not be when all 3 beers are side by side - it is not a big difference, and it is not the difference between "good" and "bad". So, in my opinion, basically any numbers in the above range are going to get you a good NE IPA.



Once I have all 3 done, carbed, etc. I will try some blind tasting with friends and probably send some off to a few others to see what they think.

Have you ever tried adding spikes of salts to the serving glass to test sulfate/chloride levels?

 

[elbinwyp]

If you were to brew a NE IPA inspired extract version (I understand it wont be the same) and would only be doing late/flameout hop additions, does this even need an extended boil? Boil for sanitation and then cut flame?

 

[mintyice]

Yes, this is a major obstacle I think. How on earth do you transfer out of a 5 gallon keg when there is going to be a ton of hop debris and yeast at the bottom? Maybe use one of those floating devices so you draw off from the top of the liquid level down? I'd be afraid it would all clog. I suppose at that point you could just pull off the lid and rack it as usual.

I keg hop with a clear beer draught system keg float and it works great. I'll throw in loose pellets without a bag which gives better extraction of oils. Once you crash the beer, all the hops sink the bottom and it pulls pints from the top.

If the early stages of LODO only impact the malt character, it is not worth it for this style IMHO. However, if something that gets oxidized early on can then stale the hop character later on, it would be interesting.

It doesn't only impact malt flavor, just that's what most LoDo'ers are interested in when they talk about the 'elusive flavor'. Supposedly hops come across as a bit crisper/bitter, but the lagers people are brewing seem to be FWH/60min additions only, not huge whirlpool hop bombs. Again, I'd love to see this progress applied to NEIPA to see what flavors we are losing in a high DO environment hot side.

Speaking of confirmational bias
I will be kegging my third IPA tomorrow where I tried 3 different water profiles. I dry hopped the last one last night. Other two are already carbed and on tap.
140Sulfate:70 Chloride (on tap)
70 Sulfate: 140 Chloride (on tap)
120:120 dry hopping (sampled when I moved from fermenter last night)

I "feel" like I can tell a bit of a difference between the high and low sulfate one... but, even that - it is not a huge difference at all - and that is with KNOWING the difference. I will try some triangle type tests blind and see if I can still tell. I am not that confident that I will be able to consistently tell the difference blind.

The 120:120 did taste different.... but, it was still getting dry hop #2 and it was flat, and room temp.... so, yeah - have to see how it stacks up when it is carbed and on tap.

One thing I think I do feel comfortable saying already is this: Whatever (if any) difference there may or may not be when all 3 beers are side by side - it is not a big difference, and it is not the difference between "good" and "bad". So, in my opinion, basically any numbers in the above range are going to get you a good NE IPA.

Once I have all 3 done, carbed, etc. I will try some blind tasting with friends and probably send some off to a few others to see what they think.

This seems to line up with my own experience. It's just icing on the cake, not make or break as long as you aren't doing >200ppm sulfate. A high chloride version I did was a little slicker though.

 

[JoeMamasIPA]

Yes, this is a major obstacle I think. How on earth do you transfer out of a 5 gallon keg when there is going to be a ton of hop debris and yeast at the bottom? Maybe use one of those floating devices so you draw off from the top of the liquid level down? I'd be afraid it would all clog. I suppose at that point you could just pull off the lid and rack it as usual.

If the early stages of LODO only impact the malt character, it is not worth it for this style IMHO. However, if something that gets oxidized early on can then stale the hop character later on, it would be interesting.

I'm not sure Brulosophy would be the best choice for doing this XBMT. It seems like it takes a ton of background knowledge and some hardware adjustments. I'd rather see Brulosophy team up with someone such as Schematix. He/she brews the beers and then Brulosophy administers the tasting. Of course, Schematix could do all of it if he/she had the time!

Hmmm, I have one of those Clear Beer floating dispensers and it works really well. They also sell a 300 micron screen that fits over the inlet of it that really keeps the junk out. None of that solves the keg hop issue though. The novel solution would be putting the hops in a bag that dissolves when the beer hits it and you could just leave it in the serving keg that has the spund valve on it until ready for transfer.

 

[stickyfinger]

Looking through the LODO methods, I realize that I already do some of those things. I add sulfites to every mash, in excess, though not to the levels they are asking for. Seems like you'd get a lot of sulfur in the final beer!! I keep my mash covered. I guess I don't boil the water before brewing. I wet my malt before milling it. Maybe I'm getting some of the benefits of LODO without realizing it!

I never thought about it, but the CO2 we use to carbonate our beer, certainly contains some oxygen, but is it enough to cause observable flavor decreases? How do you serve the LODO beers if you don't use a CO2 cylinder? You have to get a yeast starter going and pump the CO2 from the starter into the keg, using a special yeast-starter-valve to serve your beer. ha ha ha! Sorry, LODudes, just teasing!

 

[EndOfLine]

Speaking of confirmational bias
I will be kegging my third IPA tomorrow where I tried 3 different water profiles. I dry hopped the last one last night. Other two are already carbed and on tap.
140Sulfate:70 Chloride (on tap)
70 Sulfate: 140 Chloride (on tap)
120:120 dry hopping (sampled when I moved from fermenter last night)

I "feel" like I can tell a bit of a difference between the high and low sulfate one... but, even that - it is not a huge difference at all - and that is with KNOWING the difference. I will try some triangle type tests blind and see if I can still tell. I am not that confident that I will be able to consistently tell the difference blind.

The 120:120 did taste different.... but, it was still getting dry hop #2 and it was flat, and room temp.... so, yeah - have to see how it stacks up when it is carbed and on tap.

One thing I think I do feel comfortable saying already is this: Whatever (if any) difference there may or may not be when all 3 beers are side by side - it is not a big difference, and it is not the difference between "good" and "bad". So, in my opinion, basically any numbers in the above range are going to get you a good NE IPA.

Once I have all 3 done, carbed, etc. I will try some blind tasting with friends and probably send some off to a few others to see what they think.

Finally! I have wanted these results for a long time now.

 

[EndOfLine]

If you were to brew a NE IPA inspired extract version (I understand it wont be the same) and would only be doing late/flameout hop additions, does this even need an extended boil? Boil for sanitation and then cut flame?

I just made and extract only NE pale for fun. 30 min boil only. You don't need an extended boil

 

[crusader1612]

Here's a question....
what are peoples processes for dry-hopping these beers?
a)- Fermentation and dryhop in primary
b)- Fermentation, early dryhop (peak fermentation), then dryhopped in primary
c)- Fermentation, dryhop in primary then rack to keg for second dryhop
d)- fermentation, rack to keg dryhop
e)- fermentation, peak ferm dryhop, rack to keg and dryhop
f)- fermentation, peak fermentation, dryhop in primary, rack to keg for a 3rd dryhop

when you dryhop in primary, do you use a bag?
when you dryhop in the keg, do you you a bag, or a stainless hopper

Obviously, people intend to harvest yeast where possible, and dryhopping makes that difficult if you dont use a hopper or a bag

 

[elbinwyp]

I just made and extract only NE pale for fun. 30 min boil only. You don't need an extended boil

Mind sharing your recipe and results?

 

[stickyfinger]

Here's a question....
what are peoples processes for dry-hopping these beers?
a)- Fermentation and dryhop in primary
b)- Fermentation, early dryhop (peak fermentation), then dryhopped in primary
c)- Fermentation, dryhop in primary then rack to keg for second dryhop
d)- fermentation, rack to keg dryhop
e)- fermentation, peak ferm dryhop, rack to keg and dryhop
f)- fermentation, peak fermentation, dryhop in primary, rack to keg for a 3rd dryhop

when you dryhop in primary, do you use a bag?
when you dryhop in the keg, do you you a bag, or a stainless hopper

Obviously, people intend to harvest yeast where possible, and dryhopping makes that difficult if you dont use a hopper or a bag

I just add all of my dry hops at one time to the primary when the yeast is just past the peak of fermentation or a few days past. I don't add kettle flavor/aroma hops anymore even. I save it all for the dryhop and have been very impressed with the results.

 

[EndOfLine]

Mind sharing your recipe and results?

Low abv extract NE pale:

6lbs pils dme
1lbs amber dme
6 gallons of RO water
Don't add any salts, extract of any kind already will have them from the extracts mash.

Choose a yeast that doesn't like to produce diacytel

30 min boil.
Any blend of hops 15 min
Same blend of hops flame out
Same blend on during fermentation
Same blend in Purged keg, rack beer onto it on day 10
Close transfer beer to serving keg day 14.
Cold crash.

If you want a higher abv version, use 9lbs of pils dme. I would suggest no more then 3 different kinds of hops unless you know what you doing.

 

[EMH5]

Here's a question....
what are peoples processes for dry-hopping these beers?
a)- Fermentation and dryhop in primary
b)- Fermentation, early dryhop (peak fermentation), then dryhopped in primary
c)- Fermentation, dryhop in primary then rack to keg for second dryhop
d)- fermentation, rack to keg dryhop
e)- fermentation, peak ferm dryhop, rack to keg and dryhop
f)- fermentation, peak fermentation, dryhop in primary, rack to keg for a 3rd dryhop

when you dryhop in primary, do you use a bag?
when you dryhop in the keg, do you you a bag, or a stainless hopper

Obviously, people intend to harvest yeast where possible, and dryhopping makes that difficult if you dont use a hopper or a bag

D. I dry hop in the serving keg... I just don't want to expose the beer to oxygen so I dry hop one time.

 

[duelerx]

Anyone has any experience using golden naked oats on this recipe?, i'm tempting to use it.

 

[ruascott]

I just add all of my dry hops at one time to the primary when the yeast is just past the peak of fermentation or a few days past. I don't add kettle flavor/aroma hops anymore even. I save it all for the dryhop and have been very impressed with the results.

Wait....you add no hops at all into the kettle (other than the bittering hops).

I don't see how you'd get much hop flavor from just a dry hop only.

 

[ruascott]

Here's a question....
what are peoples processes for dry-hopping these beers?
a)- Fermentation and dryhop in primary
b)- Fermentation, early dryhop (peak fermentation), then dryhopped in primary
c)- Fermentation, dryhop in primary then rack to keg for second dryhop
d)- fermentation, rack to keg dryhop
e)- fermentation, peak ferm dryhop, rack to keg and dryhop
f)- fermentation, peak fermentation, dryhop in primary, rack to keg for a 3rd dryhop

when you dryhop in primary, do you use a bag?
when you dryhop in the keg, do you you a bag, or a stainless hopper

Obviously, people intend to harvest yeast where possible, and dryhopping makes that difficult if you dont use a hopper or a bag

I do A or B. Then keg. I've also dry hopped in serving keg in past. But honestly couldn't tell much difference.

I'm sure all these elaborate methods of keg hopping / transferring under CO2, etc....do improve the final product. But I think it's likely just on the margin.

You're going to have a great beer with this recipe regardless of method.

 

[JoeMamasIPA]

C at the tail end of fermentation though for the 1st DH

 

[kevink]

Here's a question....
what are peoples processes for dry-hopping these beers?
a)- Fermentation and dryhop in primary
b)- Fermentation, early dryhop (peak fermentation), then dryhopped in primary
c)- Fermentation, dryhop in primary then rack to keg for second dryhop
d)- fermentation, rack to keg dryhop
e)- fermentation, peak ferm dryhop, rack to keg and dryhop
f)- fermentation, peak fermentation, dryhop in primary, rack to keg for a 3rd dryhop

when you dryhop in primary, do you use a bag?
when you dryhop in the keg, do you you a bag, or a stainless hopper

Obviously, people intend to harvest yeast where possible, and dryhopping makes that difficult if you dont use a hopper or a bag

I use A and couldn't imagine improving upon it, but I'm not saying it's impossible. I have also tried B and C. When peak activity dies down after 24-36 hrs (as indicated by Brewpi data), I ramp the temp slowly over 2 days from ferm. temp to 70. When 70 is reached, I dry hop through a custom made port that allows me to blow CO2 into the fermenter while adding pellet dry hops. This creates positive pressure in the fermenter and an outward flow of CO2 through the dry hop port as dry hops are added so there is almost no chance for any O2 to get in. I don't use whole hops as they will carry too much O2 into the beer. It sounds crazy, but the beers are better than ever. I then crash for 2-3 days and transfer into CO2 purged kegs.

 

[mintyice]

Anyone has any experience using golden naked oats on this recipe?, i'm tempting to use it.

Not in this particular recipe, no, but other NEIPA, yes. They can work.

Here's a question....
what are peoples processes for dry-hopping these beers?
a)- Fermentation and dryhop in primary
b)- Fermentation, early dryhop (peak fermentation), then dryhopped in primary
c)- Fermentation, dryhop in primary then rack to keg for second dryhop
d)- fermentation, rack to keg dryhop
e)- fermentation, peak ferm dryhop, rack to keg and dryhop
f)- fermentation, peak fermentation, dryhop in primary, rack to keg for a 3rd dryhop

when you dryhop in primary, do you use a bag?
when you dryhop in the keg, do you you a bag, or a stainless hopper

Obviously, people intend to harvest yeast where possible, and dryhopping makes that difficult if you dont use a hopper or a bag

D. Keg dry hop with loose pellets.

 

[kccoop07]

Anyone has any experience using golden naked oats on this recipe?, i'm tempting to use it.

I just finished this DIPA:

60% 2-Row
20% Flaked Wheat
10% GNO
10% Sugar

8 oz hops at FO
8 oz in fermenter after primary action

First Gen WY1318 didn't want to pass 78% apparent attenuation so it's a little too sweet, but otherwise tasty.

DDH Melcher on the left for inexact comparison.

 

[kevink]

Nice camshaft faucet handle!

 

[kccoop07]

Thanks! We also have a couple shifter knobs and a 50 cal round! (empty I think...)

 

[crusader1612]

I just add all of my dry hops at one time to the primary when the yeast is just past the peak of fermentation or a few days past. I don't add kettle flavor/aroma hops anymore even. I save it all for the dryhop and have been very impressed with the results.

I'm very very intrigued by this.....
so in the example of this recipe.
What kind of hopping would you use?
It suggests a flameout and a "hopstand" of sorts
do you just add all those hops to the dry hope instead?
so a dryhop of maybe 8-9oz's?

Can you give me a recipe to work from? for a NEIPA or PA?

 

[crusader1612]

I use A and couldn't imagine improving upon it, but I'm not saying it's impossible. I have also tried B and C. When peak activity dies down after 24-36 hrs (as indicated by Brewpi data), I ramp the temp slowly over 2 days from ferm. temp to 70. When 70 is reached, I dry hop through a custom made port that allows me to blow CO2 into the fermenter while adding pellet dry hops. This creates positive pressure in the fermenter and an outward flow of CO2 through the dry hop port as dry hops are added so there is almost no chance for any O2 to get in. I don't use whole hops as they will carry too much O2 into the beer. It sounds crazy, but the beers are better than ever. I then crash for 2-3 days and transfer into CO2 purged kegs.

See, this is what I've done in the apst as well., however I've always dryhopped loose, meaning I essentially lose my WY1318 pitch. (although after 5 years I finally sorted a stir plate)




Separate question, has anyone used dry yeasts for these beers?
I've heard of S04 being used to ok effect, but its not an overly popular yeast.

I was thinking something like the Empire Ale or Liberty Bell yeasts from Mangrove Jack

 

[stickyfinger]

Wait....you add no hops at all into the kettle (other than the bittering hops).

I don't see how you'd get much hop flavor from just a dry hop only.

I get a huge, bursting load of flavor and aroma from all-dry-hops. Try it. I hate all of the mess in the kettle too, so this works really great. I keep meaning to do a side-by-side 10 gallon batch, split into half. Half would get maybe 4 oz of hopstand and 8 oz of dry hops. The other half would get just 12 oz of dry hops. That is a very intriguing test.

Over time I've shifted more and more of the hops to the dry hop, as I love that fresh, super intense hoppiness that dry hopping give you. I found that I was making as good of or better beers (or I think I am) with more and more dry hops and less and less kettle hops.

I kind of wish I had known this before I bought my counterflow chiller. I'd get a plate chiller if I could do it over and just use hop extract for bittering and all character hops in the dry hop.