New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[whovous]

Forgive the thread highjacking, but if you can help me figure this out, I'd appreciate. And if you won't, just say so and I'll stop highjacking.

I am trying to clone KneeDeep's Breaking Bud APA:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=568585

I followed your RO water suggestions from this thread, and I used a full package of San Diego Super liquid yeast after oxygenating a little over two gallons of wort.

To your specific questions:

1. I started with my fermentation chamber at 61F on a Sunday night and had good activity the next morning. I increased to 65F after about three days and to 68F another four days later.

2. I checked for FG at about day 10. I got 1.018 instead of the projected 1.011. I went ahead and cold crashed because I wanted these 2015 crop hops to taste as fresh as possible.

3. All grain all the time. I've never made an extract.

4. San Diego Super in the new "Pure Pitch" packaging. Date on the package indicated it was about two weeks old.

5. No starter. Target OG was 1.063, but I actually hit 1.059. And, as noted above, I pitched a full package of SDS into a bit over two gallons of wort. I got quite vigorous activity and the krausen started dropping around day 3.

Any thoughts?

 

[brettwasbtd]

Forgive the thread highjacking, but if you can help me figure this out, I'd appreciate. And if you won't, just say so and I'll stop highjacking.

I am trying to clone KneeDeep's Breaking Bud APA:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=568585

I followed your RO water suggestions from this thread, and I used a full package of San Diego Super liquid yeast after oxygenating a little over two gallons of wort.

To your specific questions:

1. I started with my fermentation chamber at 61F on a Sunday night and had good activity the next morning. I increased to 65F after about three days and to 68F another four days later.

2. I checked for FG at about day 10. I got 1.018 instead of the projected 1.011. I went ahead and cold crashed because I wanted these 2015 crop hops to taste as fresh as possible.

3. All grain all the time. I've never made an extract.

4. San Diego Super in the new "Pure Pitch" packaging. Date on the package indicated it was about two weeks old.

5. No starter. Target OG was 1.063, but I actually hit 1.059. And, as noted above, I pitched a full package of SDS into a bit over two gallons of wort. I got quite vigorous activity and the krausen started dropping around day 3.

Any thoughts?

Confirm your hydrometer reads 1.000 in water? What temp did you mash at, and are you sure your thermometer is accurate?

 

[whovous]

Confirm your hydrometer reads 1.000 in water? What temp did you mash at, and are you sure your thermometer is accurate?

I have not checked the hydrometer lately, but it has read 1.000 in water in the past. Will check again in a few days. I would love for that to provide the explanation. I've missed a couple of FGs lately.

I mashed at 152F and I am pretty confident in the accuracy of my BrauSupply set-up. It is recirculating mash, no sparge, and it monitors the temp of the wort as it puts it back into the lid and hose at the top of the kettle. That could mean it is a little bit higher than 152F in the kettle proper.

 

[dunbruha]

I primarily started to use the dry hop keg to cut down on any chance of picking up 02. Throwing dry hops in serving keg would work too.... but, I don't really like to leave the dry hops in that long. A lot of what I have read indicates the bulk of the extraction takes place in perhaps as little time as a single day. So, I like to just hit that second dry hop for 2-3 days.

Additional benefits of the dry hop keg is that it basically filters all the debris out and it is just clean beer going into the serving keg.

However, to be fair, I would really need to do a couple kegs side by side to tell if the method I use makes a substantial difference. Often, we do things primarily because "that's the way we do things." I don't think putting dry hops in the serving keg would make my beer better. I do think there is at least a chance it could make it worse as the hops sat for extended period of time.

Hope your beer turns out well for you

Thanks. I haven't noticed any off-flavors from having the hops in the serving keg. So I'm going to try it that way and see. Thanks for the recipe!

 

[Braufessor]

Forgive the thread highjacking, but if you can help me figure this out, I'd appreciate. And if you won't, just say so and I'll stop highjacking.

I am trying to clone KneeDeep's Breaking Bud APA:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=568585

I followed your RO water suggestions from this thread, and I used a full package of San Diego Super liquid yeast after oxygenating a little over two gallons of wort.

To your specific questions:

1. I started with my fermentation chamber at 61F on a Sunday night and had good activity the next morning. I increased to 65F after about three days and to 68F another four days later.

2. I checked for FG at about day 10. I got 1.018 instead of the projected 1.011. I went ahead and cold crashed because I wanted these 2015 crop hops to taste as fresh as possible.

3. All grain all the time. I've never made an extract.

4. San Diego Super in the new "Pure Pitch" packaging. Date on the package indicated it was about two weeks old.

5. No starter. Target OG was 1.063, but I actually hit 1.059. And, as noted above, I pitched a full package of SDS into a bit over two gallons of wort. I got quite vigorous activity and the krausen started dropping around day 3.

Any thoughts?

I have to say, I have ZERO idea why that beer, with that yeast would finish out that high. Other than a faulty reading somehow...... I just don't see how it would not finish that beer out (especially 2 gallons).

I guess the two thoughts I would possibly have are these:

1.) At day 3 when the Krauesen started to drop..... that might have been the time to put it somewhere around 70-72 degrees to finish out. Fermentation drives the temperature up.... as it starts to slow, that temp begins to drop back.... if it drops back too fast the yeast could stall out possibly because the wort temperature might fall5 degrees or so.

2.) There is something to be said for having "actively fermenting" yeast when you pitch. Now, that should not be a huge problem in a 2 gallon beer, but, perhaps the 1.060 gravity was a touch high for the fresh yeast????? Just a thought. I would possibly try making even a 300-500ml starter 18 hours before your brew day, and pitch the entire thing into your beer and see if that does not make a difference in FG.

Those are the only two things that occur to me.... to be honest, what you did seems like it should be ok. However, obviously, it wasn't/

 

[whovous]

One thing I left out was that my wort was fairly cold when I first pitched the yeast. I don't have my notes with me, but I think it was mid to upper 50s. I was worried that might have more effect on the yeast, or at least slow it down a bit, but I had decent activity by the following morning. At that time, my FC was at about 61 or 62F and the Fermometer on the side of my Brew Demon was only about a degree higher, and it never got more than about 3F higher than the FC. My experience has been mostly with US-05 being noticeably warmer than the ambient in the FC.

This was my first experience with liquid yeast. I've always been a bit chary of going liquid, as it just seemed a lot more complicated to my novice brain. SD Super sounded right for my style, and I got some assurances that I could direct pitch like I did, so I figured this would be a good time to dip my toes in the liquid, so to speak.

I get home tomorrow afternoon, and I am really hoping my hydrometer tells me my water is about 1.005 or so. It does not seem likely, given that I have tested it in water in the past, but perhaps these things can change?

 

[brewski09]

They can change but it's not too likely. I think San Diego Super Yeast attenuates a little less that Cali ale (wlp001, us-05, wy1056?) from what I've heard. No direct experience myself though.

 

[madscientistbrewNq]

Well braufessor, if the conan had attenuated like I wanted I think I might have gotten it right and it's all because of you. By the way, jumping the beer was a mess. Any recommendations... I got major foaming. Not sure what I did wrong or if that's just the nature of the beast.

 

[KirkMN]

I was finally able to brew this recipe today. Just finishing up the whirlpool now. I'll report back with how it came out.

Cheers

 

[Braufessor]

Well braufessor, if the conan had attenuated like I wanted I think I might have gotten it right and it's all because of you. By the way, jumping the beer was a mess. Any recommendations... I got major foaming. Not sure what I did wrong or if that's just the nature of the beast.

Looks great. Sorry to hear it did not go just right...... Been there myself. I have had a couple finish too high, and have had problems with the keg jump 2-3 times too.

Foaming...... In the lines or in the keg??

Foaming can be the result of a couple things - loose posts, loose disconnects in particular. Hop debris caught in a disconnect or post somewhere.

Did you use a double sleeve type filter on the dip tube?

Couple things I have found that help the transfer process.

*Receiving keg I fill with Starsan and push that out with CO2 so it is 100% purged.
*I pull the pressure relief or you can put a CO2 disconnect on so that the incoming beer is not fighting any pressure in the keg. De-gas the keg pressure before you start the fill.
*I put the dry hop keg up on my chest freezer and the receiving keg on the floor - so I have gravity plus pressure in my favor.
* I let the first 4 ounces or so go into a glass (that is the stuff that is most likely to have hop debris in it) and then put the other liquid disconnect on it.
*Connect the two kegs - liquid disconnect to liquid disconnect. I generally hit it with about 20psi to start to get it flowing. I will back it off later in the transfer when it is flowing ok.

If it seems to be plugged, disengage the CO2, vent keg, check disconnect - possibly rock the keg to loosen hop cake at the bottom of keg. Might need to loosen the out keg post and check if it is plugged, maybe move the dip tube a bit, pull it up/down a bit in case hops are plugging it. Keep things sanitary. Spray bottle of star san.

As far as finishing gravity - did you use a starter? I REALLY prefer an actively fermenting 1L starter that is 18-24 hours old and I pitch the entire thing..... I don't cold crash it or decant it.

Color and haziness looks great - hop it comes out ok for you. Could leave the keg sit at room temp for a week and hope you get a couple more gravity points out of it, and some natural carbonation in the keg....

 

[madscientistbrewNq]

I placed the pellets in a bag with floss it was probably half way in the volume of beer. Post were tight. Beer was foaming. Seemed like it was transferring way too quick potentially. I don't think there were any debris issues. I didn't do a starter as I used giga 1st gen if you will.

 

[madscientistbrewNq]

Maybe it wasn't sealed up well enough... thanks again.

 

[Braufessor]

Maybe it wasn't sealed up well enough... thanks again.

That is my first thought..... did you leave the hops in during transfer? maybe the floss in the o-ring is enough to break the seal. Maybe try taking it out and resetting the lid. Should have no problems with clogging with your strategy.

 

[madscientistbrewNq]

I did and honestly not sure I got the seal I wanted... but figured well I wouldn't have to worry about o2 coming in

 

[olotti]

Brau, I know you keg but do you do a purposeful cold crash with this or if not I'm assuming once the keg is in your rotation it will naturally cold crash over time just from being in a colder serving environment. I ask as I just brewed my second IPA using Conan, I did a small 24 hr cold crash with the first one but I'm thinking of just moving this back to my basement for the second dry hop, it's 62-64 deg down there now then just bottling without a purposeful cold crash just to see if keeping more yeast and dry hop material in suspension will do anything to the flavor and appearance. The first has been bottled two weeks and the sample bottles I pulled are opaque but not that crazy murky look like some treehouse, trillium and HF beers. I also didn't pick up this whole peaches flavor from the Conan in the samples I've tried so far so don't know if that's because a lot dropped the 24 hr cold crash or what. Peak ferm temps hit 68 then I moved the carboy upstairs to 72 to finish out then back downstairs to dry hop for 5 days and then 24 or 36 hr cold crash before bottling. This time same process for fermentation temps but I'm gonna try your technique and dry hop 2oz at day 5 then 2oz again at day 10 with a gravity sample then prob bottle 2 days later. Any thoughts?

 

[Braufessor]

Brau, I know you keg but do you do a purposeful cold crash with this or if not I'm assuming once the keg is in your rotation it will naturally cold crash over time just from being in a colder serving environment.

I have done a cold crash some times, but I did not notice a substantial enough difference to really worry that much about it. My beers settle out fairly well in primary and then the dry hop keg filters most everything else out.

....just to see if keeping more yeast and dry hop material in suspension will do anything to the flavor and appearance. The first has been bottled two weeks and the sample bottles I pulled are opaque but not that crazy murky look like some treehouse, trillium and HF beers.

My beers are Hazy - not murky. Personally, I don't really want a lot of yeast in suspension. I think most of mine is hop and protein haze. Some yeast too.... but, I don't think Conan hangs in suspension as much as some other yeasts. I would say the two yeasts I have used (that would both work well for this beer too) that really stay in suspension are 1318 and Denny's Favorite 50. I have brewed beers with Denny's yeast and they just never dropped clear. I find mine stay hazy pretty much their whole life in the keg. The last few pints seem to clear up, but that is it. I also (not sure why) feel that the higher pH (5.45 prevail pH), higher post fermentation pH (4.6) results in a hazier beer perhaps.

I also didn't pick up this whole peaches flavor from the Conan in the samples I've tried so far

I have never really gotten the "peachy" flavor in my beers using conan..... and I brew A LOT of beers with the yeast..... probably have brewed at least 75 with it. I have gotten it in starters a few times, but, not so much in full batches. Probably need to play around with fermentation temps, pitching rates, oxygen to really dial that in.

This time same process for fermentation temps but I'm gonna try your technique and dry hop 2oz at day 5 then 2oz again at day 10 with a gravity sample then prob bottle 2 days later. Any thoughts?

That sounds good. Biggest thing is that it is really hard to brew a beer exactly the way you want the first time you do it. I have brewed this beer 40 times??? Maybe more - I am still tweaking it a little here and a little there. There is no substitute for brewing, rebrewing and rebrewing some more.... good records, get the process down and make minor changes to see what you like.

 

[olotti]

Thanks for the reply. To point #2 I agree that my attempts even using 001 and 04 have been hazy not murky so that leads me to believe it's more the grain bill than yeast in suspension, I did a no cold crash with the 04 and didn't like it as much with all the yeast hanging around, my preference but it was a good experiment. That also makes me think like has been said here these guys use a crazy amount of hops to dry hop with putting a lot left in suspension when canning, I typically only do 4oz in a 5.5 gal batch with bottling 5 gal. I'm new in the water chemistry game so my mash ph I've targeted so far has been 5.2-5.3 per advice given but maybe I'll try one in the 5.4 range next.

Re the peach flavor of Conan I never even really tasted it in heady even though klimmich remarks on it in some you tube vids that beer is more dank and resinous to me than fruity and peachy. I did smell it in the first starter I did but even in this last starter that was missing, weird crazy yeasts. Lol.

Point 3. I agree with the rebrew process. I've been finally finding a grain bill I really like so now I'm just using a new yeast and playing with water chemistry one by one don't want to many different variables. The last ipa I did, first with Conan I used your thoughts of highe chloride and lower sulfate where I've been doing he higher sulfate lower chloride before that. It produced tasty bee so I'm curious to see if I can tell or my goat palate can tell any difference. The possibilities seem endless when tweaking beer recipes I love it but So much to brew and so little time.

 

[olotti]

To follow up brau how do you check your final beer pH? Do you use pH strips?

 

[Braufessor]

To follow up brau how do you check your final beer pH? Do you use pH strips?

I have a pretty good pH meter - Milwaukee 102.

But, what I have really found is that once you have a consistent process, everything really falls in place. I don't always take pH readings anymore, simply because they are always the same.

For people that don't have a pH meter, the "general" water suggestions I gave on the first page using RO water should put things right in the ball park.

If you do use pH strips (which I have in the past) - the colorphast strips are the best ones to use.

For people that brew a lot, and think they will continue to brew a lot - you can really learn a lot with a good pH meter. I messed around with a cheap, crappy pH meter to start - it is a waste of money. If a pH meter is in someone's future, get a good one

 

[whovous]

Confirm your hydrometer reads 1.000 in water? What temp did you mash at, and are you sure your thermometer is accurate?

I just tested some warmish tap water. 1.004.

I guess I missed my FG by quite a bit less than I thought. Although this also means I missed my OG by that much more as well, so I suppose my ABV is still gonna be mid 5s.

 

[TxBigHops]

I just tested some warmish tap water. 1.004.

I guess I missed my FG by quite a bit less than I thought. Although this also means I missed my OG by that much more as well, so I suppose my ABV is still gonna be mid 5s.

Yes, your hydrometer is definitely off, but "warmish" isn't good enough. You also need to know the exact temp of the water, and preferably adjust it to the calibration temp of the hydrometer, probably 60 degrees. It will be indicated somewhere on the tube.

 

[whovous]

Yes, your hydrometer is definitely off, but "warmish" isn't good enough. You also need to know the exact temp of the water, and preferably adjust it to the calibration temp of the hydrometer, probably 60 degrees. It will be indicated somewhere on the tube.

Measured again, took temp and used adjustment tables. Yup, water is 1.004. This means my OG was 1.055, my FG 1.015, and my ABV 5.25%. Original target was 6.7%, so I am off by quite a bit. Still, it made for the best tasting wort I've ever had, so life is not all bad. OK, it is not wort anymore once it is fermented...

 

[MerlinWerks]

In case anyone is interested - this is the blonde ale I make...

...Just looking for a light, easy drinking beer that takes no dry hop and makes a nice pile of clean yeast for harvesting. People drink the hell out of this beer though - I can never keep it on tap. I like it myself, wife likes it and guests tend to demolish it.

Since you brew this with yeast harvesting in mind, do you use a hop bag/spider or simply let them go commando? Up until this point I've always used a spider but I got a pick-up tube for my kettle and want experiment with letting the hops roam free, but I still would like to keep hop debris in the harvest to a minimum. OTOH, I suppose with a lightly hopped beer like this the effects of any residual hops in the yeast harvest will most likely be negligible.

I will be brewing something very similar this weekend. Had a blonde ale with liberty at a local brewpub last week and really enjoyed it, a nice break from all the citrus floating around

 

[Braufessor]

Since you brew this with yeast harvesting in mind, do you use a hop bag/spider or simply let them go commando? Up until this point I've always used a spider but I got a pick-up tube for my kettle and want experiment with letting the hops roam free, but I still would like to keep hop debris in the harvest to a minimum. OTOH, I suppose with a lightly hopped beer like this the effects of any residual hops in the yeast harvest will most likely be negligible.

I will be brewing something very similar this weekend. Had a blonde ale with liberty at a local brewpub last week and really enjoyed it, a nice break from all the citrus floating around

I have went away from ever using spiders, screens, bags, etc. All my hops at all stages are commando. I put the screens over my dip tube in dry hopping keg, but hops are free in the beer outside those screens. There is basically no hop material left in the blonde I make. I brew 6.5 gallons and let everything drop out and fall to the bottom in the kettle. I have about 3/4 of a gallon dead space at bottom of my kettle under my spigot. When I transfer chilled wort to fermenter, I leave it all behind, and I collect the first cup or two of wort in a pan for hydrometer, pH reading etc..... that has some hops and trub .... but after that, I am transferring wort I can pretty much see through. I don't dry hop the blonde ale..... So, in the end, it is basically almost all beer and yeast with very little other particulate matter.

I agree that some hop and other particulate probably does not really matter that much. But, I generally try to generate clean yeast if I can, as it is not that hard to do with the system I have.

*Liberty is a real nice hop, overlooked, easily available and cheap. I use it in the blonde an amber and in some other lagers as well.

 

[MerlinWerks]

Thanks for the reply, all commando hops is the direction I'm heading. It started with dry-hopping, I used to put the hops in a 300u dry-hopper, now the dry-hopper goes over the keg dip-tube, then a Wilserbrewer hop sock goes over that and gets ty-wrapped at the top, dry-hop then transfer to a serving keg. When I started doing this the difference in what I got out of the dry-hop was quite noticeable. I'm hoping I'll get similar results with the boil hops...

 

[rsalan]

I'm gonna be bottling this this weekend. Brau, how is the bitterness at your estimated 50 IBUs in comparison to Tree House? I am planning to do all my late hop additions by whirlpooling at sub-125F degree temperatures to prevent any isomerization for my next brew, and keep it at only 30-35 IBUs from the bittering addition.

 

[Braufessor]

I have only had treehouse once.... and that was quite a while ago. So, I hesitate to really compare it. Definitely not as bitter as Sip of Sunshine, or Heady Topper or most of the Toppling Goliath beers. I will say it is not "bitter." I have a lot of people who tell me they really don't like "bitter" beer, but they love this beer because it tastes like hops and smells like hops...... but it is not bitter like other IPA's they have.

I like the idea of sub 125 addition.... I am not real precise about temp on my whirlpool hops. I shut off flame add first addition, start chiller. In less than 5 minutes I know I am under 160 ....as I can put my hand on outside of my kettle and not burn myself. I throw in the next addition and shut off chiller and do 30-40 minute hop stand, stirring it up every few minutes. So, none of my whirlpool hops are staying at 180+ for very long at all, and the second half are probably going in closer to 140 than they are 180.

 

[rsalan]

Nice! I can't wait to taste it at bottling! The Northern Brewer calculator recommends 4.04 oz of priming sugar for 2.4 vol of C02 for American IPAs. Should I aim lower?

 

[Braufessor]

Nice! I can't wait to taste it at bottling! The Northern Brewer calculator recommends 4.04 oz of priming sugar for 2.4 vol of C02 for American IPAs. Should I aim lower?

My guess is that I am in the 2.1-2.2 range. I like my beer on the lower end of carbonation. Sometimes that is something you have to experiment around with for your own preferences too. But, I think with a beer like this you want it smooth and soft, and sometimes a carbonation bite can sort of make it sharp or harsh. Not that there is a monumental difference between 2.4 and 2.1 though either.

 

[umad]

Brewed this recipe Thursday with a few minor tweaks in the malt bill. I will be bottling and not kegging unfortunately.

I'm leaning towards doing all the dry hops at once in a single additions to avoid oxygenation. No bag, just free floating hops unless 6 plus ounces is too much to dry hop without a bag.

 

[Braufessor]

Brewed this recipe Thursday with a few minor tweaks in the malt bill. I will be bottling and not kegging unfortunately.

I'm leaning towards doing all the dry hops at once in a single additions to avoid oxygenation. No bag, just free floating hops unless 6 plus ounces is too much to dry hop without a bag.

As long as you have a way to drop most of it out of suspension.... cold crash or something..... I think it is a fine way to go. Actually, trying to put that many hops in a bag would probably be pointless as it would allow so little surface area exposure.

 

[olotti]

Brewed this recipe Thursday with a few minor tweaks in the malt bill. I will be bottling and not kegging unfortunately.

I'm leaning towards doing all the dry hops at once in a single additions to avoid oxygenation. No bag, just free floating hops unless 6 plus ounces is too much to dry hop without a bag.

I add all my dry hops at once into primary, you can also do 3oz now and 3oz a few days later or all at once but like brau said, and I also cold crash in my garage fridge, doesn't have to be for long say 24 hrs and the hops usually drop right out. Chances of any oxidation from dropping hop pellets or whoe cone into your fermenter is next to nil, you have better odds at oxygen being added when bottling and I bottle to but are sure the beer swirls gently out of the racking cane and I take care not to really shake the carboy when moving it to my counter.

 

[olotti]

Regarding Conan and the peach note I just had a couple of my IPAs with it and the only time I really got that peach, and it was a no doubter smelled just like ripe peaches, was after I poured a beer and smelled the bottle it was very prevalent mainly because there was yeast sediment on the bottom of the bottle. I think with this no matter how you pitch it or the temp of fermentation if it's a hoppy beer it seems to cover up that peach flavor. My IPAs are usually around 70 Ibus with a 60 min charge and then all late additions and a usually 4oz 60 min hop stand.

 

[rsalan]

Any idea on getting that super turbid haze found in Tree House Green, Juice Machine etc.?

 

[Braufessor]

Any idea on getting that super turbid haze found in Tree House Green, Juice Machine etc.?

Have not had it...... Yeast in suspension??? 1318 or Denny's are yeasts that hang in suspension in my experience. Could be that in addition to some of the same things in this thread.

 

[hannibalmdq]

Any idea on getting that super turbid haze found in Tree House Green, Juice Machine etc.?

You want haze, toss some all purpose flour straight in the boll. Starch haze for days. I think there's a blog on The Mad Fermentationists site that covers it.

 

[rsalan]

You want haze, toss some all purpose flour straight in the boll. Starch haze for days. I think there's a blog on The Mad Fermentationists site that covers it.

Yeah I've been reading up on that technique. Sounds like cheating lol. I'm not sure that's their method at Tree House and Trillium though..

 

[g-star]

It is cheating and is certainly not done on a professional level.

With the flaked grains, heavy dry hop, and a yeast like WY1318 the beer will remain hazy for a long time...flour is unnecessary and probably would make the beer unappealingly turbid.

 

[Braufessor]

I have used flour in a beer once.... there could have been other variables at play as well..... but I did not like the beer at all. I agree with g-star - there are a lot of variables you can manipulate to get a hazy, cloudy beer.

 

[hannibalmdq]

It is cheating and is certainly not done on a professional level.

With the flaked grains, heavy dry hop, and a yeast like WY1318 the beer will remain hazy for a long time...flour is unnecessary and probably would make the beer unappealingly turbid.

Cheating? What does that even mean? There are exceeding few absolutes in brewing and near infinite possibilities.

Unless your going to declare that adding flour to the wort makes the final product something other than beer, I can't see how it's any different from any other adjunt you could pop in a brew. The poster asked about haze boosting options, that's certainly one of them.

Now, as the above poster pointed out, you might not like the results, but that's another matter. Seemed like OldSock was pretty happy with his results.