OP
OP
Lighter one is 4.0-4.5. Darker one is 5.5-6.0 range.
New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA
- Thread starter Braufessor
- Start date
Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:
Lighter one is 4.0-4.5. Darker one is 5.5-6.0 range.
Nice looking recipe.
What do you think of this water profile to achieve what this style, I'm also using Conan strain for the first time in this ipa also. Maybe doing one to many things at once ie new water profile and new yeast but oh well, I don't have time to brew control batches, lol, who does. Anyway I use 100% RO water for mash and sparge.
Ca- 99.6
Mg- 0
Na- 0
Sulfate- 67
Chl- 128
Bicarb- 1
mash pH- 5.4
What do you think the outcome would be if the numbers specifically sulfate and chloride were increased to the 100/180 as the other poster mentioned.
I like the higher chloride level as it makes for a bigger mouthfeel. I also like to push the sulfate up in tandem as it keeps some crispness in the hops flavour. The overwhelming effect is still of juicy hops, just a little more defined.
I arrived at those numbers by carefully measuring and dosing the relevant salts into finished beer, then estimating appropriate liquor ion concentrations and doing a couple of test brews to really narrow it down.
I arrived at those numbers by carefully measuring and dosing the relevant salts into finished beer, then estimating appropriate liquor ion concentrations and doing a couple of test brews to really narrow it down.
Well I like this idea more especially since you took such a scientific and analytical approach to it, not just throwing stuff in until you get the desired effect. Maybe I'll brew my numbers this batch then run another ipa using conan and then your numbers and hopefully they'll be brewed close enough that I'll be able to do side by side tastings to really taste the effect.
KirkMN
Well-Known Member
I'm going to brew this tomorrow but was thinking of a second batch with a different hop combination. Do you have any good similar recipes using Nelson Sauvin or other similar tropical hops?
I had a TG PsuedoSue for the first time yesterday and damn did that have a fantastic nose on it. Best smelling beer I've ever had. It almost smelled a bit like it had Nelson in it. This beer was great.
Last night I was able to get a can of Heady Topper that I want to grow up the yeast in it just to see how similar it is to the Omega DIPA "Vermont" yeast.
I had a TG PsuedoSue for the first time yesterday and damn did that have a fantastic nose on it. Best smelling beer I've ever had. It almost smelled a bit like it had Nelson in it. This beer was great.
Last night I was able to get a can of Heady Topper that I want to grow up the yeast in it just to see how similar it is to the Omega DIPA "Vermont" yeast.
One of my many professional hats is analytical chemist, so measuring stuff to be able to repeat it is a forte.
Nice. So braufessors water profile is similar to yours, more chloride than sulfate but just not as high. I've been doing it the other way with moe sulfate and less chloride to get a cleaner, crisper hop presence so this should be interesting for comparisons sake. Do you feel the higher chloride lends to the creamy mouthfeel along with other things like yeast, mash temp, grain bill adjuncts like oats or wheat.
The chloride makes a big difference to the mouthfeel in my experience. The high sulfate and low chloride profile is well established and makes great beer, but you need to lean heavily on the malt bill to bring the mouthfeel.
It's nice to have options I see based on water profile. I'm seeing I can use the same grain bil and really alter mouthfeel by water adjustments. Clean and crisp is higher sulfate and low chloride and fuller mouthfeel and creaminess with higher chloride and lower sulfate. Am I looking at this right even with mash temps still in the 150 range ? Almost 2 yrs into ag being and I love that I'm learning stuff all the time although I just got into water chemistry thanks to yooper and it's completely changed my beers. It's no joke water chemistry matters.
OP
OP
I have not used Nelson, but I would think it would work very well in a beer like this. Like I said - I tend to use 4 additions, 3 ounces each and adjust the amts. of each to the hops I want to emphasize. I have had a few beers that were straight Nelson and I liked them. Have seen a couple that used Galaxy as a combo..... But, I don't have much personal experience with it as a hop.
Pseudo Sue is all Citra.
This is kind of a cool link that gives hop combos of various commercial IPA's. http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2013/02/american-ipa-hop-bills-and-analysis.html
OP
OP
The biggest thing with brewing (including water profile) is to start somewhere and then adjust according to your own personal taste. Not everyone prefers the same approaches. One of the best things you can do is brew the same beer with two different profiles (significant enough difference that there is a real taste difference) and see what you like. Then even within that strategy you prefer, make some adjustments and contrast the differences. Also - adjusting water a few ppm one way or the other is really not something that is going to be noticed.
Whenever you mess with water, remember, the #1 priority is to make sure your mash pH is somewhere in the ballpark before you worry about the flavor/mouthfeel component. 5.2-5.5 is a general ballpark you want to find yourself in. I find that lower pH gives you clearer beer and higher end tends to leave the exact same beer cloudier, hazier.
Mash Temps..... in my experience there is really not much difference as long as you are in the 150-154 range. Pushing it lower or higher can give some differences in dryness/full ness of the beer.
And you can always add salts to the finished beer to see what they do to the taste. It's a great way to identify batch to batch changes before you brew the next batch.
I totally agree that you should focus less on the absolute numbers and their purported effects, and adjust your beer to your own personal taste
I totally agree that you should focus less on the absolute numbers and their purported effects, and adjust your beer to your own personal taste
Yup totally agree with both of you there. im interested to see what outcome reversing the sulfate and chloride has to do with this batch since after brewing 5-7 batches with higher sulfates I have a good taste and idea of what that can produce. Thanks for the info sorry for the thread jack.
OP
OP
Make sure you start small - 200-300ml of starter wort @1.020-1.030 gravity. I find it can take a couple days before you really notice activity. Depends on how fresh the Heady Topper is too.
KirkMN
Well-Known Member
I was thinking of stepping it up a few times, a few days on each low gravity wort. It was canned 12/28, but its been through some travels. Should I cool it between and decant off the excess liquid? Any tips?
OP
OP
Yes - that is what I do. I start with a 1L flask and I do that first small starter (200-300ml) to get activity going and then let it ferment out and settle out. I decant as much clear liquid off as possible and boil up 500ml of 1.040 gravity wort - dump it right in on the freshly decanted small starter. Let it ferment out again and decant. I then use a 2L flask and make a 1200ml starter (1.040) and if everything looks good, I may pitch that into a batch of blonde ale (1.040) gravity. If it looks like it is still on the small side, I might do one more step ..... crash the 1200ml starter, decant and add another 1200ml of wort. I am never in a big hurry to go from a can of beer into a batch of beer..... My step up might be over the course of 2 weeks sometimes.
When I pitch into beer, I always pitch an entire, actively fermenting, 1L starter. I don't decant.
Also - personally, I would recommend that your first pitch off of a starter you take up from a can of beer goes into a small beer (I do a blonde ale). Low hops, low gravity. Makes a good house beer. The yeast has an easy time with it, and then you can collect 4-6 jars of yeast pretty easily that you can turn around and use for your IPA's and beers that are a bit bigger.
When I pitch into beer, I always pitch an entire, actively fermenting, 1L starter. I don't decant.
Also - personally, I would recommend that your first pitch off of a starter you take up from a can of beer goes into a small beer (I do a blonde ale). Low hops, low gravity. Makes a good house beer. The yeast has an easy time with it, and then you can collect 4-6 jars of yeast pretty easily that you can turn around and use for your IPA's and beers that are a bit bigger.
brewski09
Well-Known Member
How much does it affect the finished beer to mash with the treated water vs adding for the boil. I'm thinking about the quicker extract batches I like to squeeze in and wondering if I can apply these water concepts successfully to extract beers. Thx
OP
OP
The issue with adding sulfate/Chloride to the boil kettle for an extract beer is basically that you have no idea what you are actually really getting in regard to mineral content.
With all grain, you know your water source. You know what you are starting with, and you know what your additions are. You are first shooting for mash pH and secondarily flavor/perception of your additions.
With extract - you don't need to worry about pH as you are not mashing. You may know the mineral content of the water you are using, but you really don't know about the mineral content of the water that was used to make the extract. So, there is a certain amount of minerals already present in the extract itself. It might be high, it might be low - but you don't know what it is. So, adding on top of it is a bit of a guessing game.
That said - you can absolutely add minerals to the boil kettle for the purpose of flavor/perception. You can even add to finished beer to get a feel for additions. If my mineral additions are going to affect my pH in a way that is too extreme, I will add some of them to the boil kettle. If I was adding to extract, I would start maybe on the lower side a bit...... say 100 chloride and 50 sulfate for instance and see what you think. You can raise or lower on future batches based on your preferences.
With all grain, you know your water source. You know what you are starting with, and you know what your additions are. You are first shooting for mash pH and secondarily flavor/perception of your additions.
With extract - you don't need to worry about pH as you are not mashing. You may know the mineral content of the water you are using, but you really don't know about the mineral content of the water that was used to make the extract. So, there is a certain amount of minerals already present in the extract itself. It might be high, it might be low - but you don't know what it is. So, adding on top of it is a bit of a guessing game.
That said - you can absolutely add minerals to the boil kettle for the purpose of flavor/perception. You can even add to finished beer to get a feel for additions. If my mineral additions are going to affect my pH in a way that is too extreme, I will add some of them to the boil kettle. If I was adding to extract, I would start maybe on the lower side a bit...... say 100 chloride and 50 sulfate for instance and see what you think. You can raise or lower on future batches based on your preferences.
Subscribed.
Can you suggest a dry yeast for this recipe? I am still pretty much a newb and nervous about moving to liquid yeast.
Can you suggest a dry yeast for this recipe? I am still pretty much a newb and nervous about moving to liquid yeast.
OP
OP
I don't know if I personally have ever went over 150 on calcium. I am sure some people have. But, I have had 125 for sure and did not notice anything adverser that I recall. That was on beers where I was pushing higher sulfate levels though.
Generally though, I am more in the 65/130 range and that brings my calcium in at 85-95 range.
OP
OP
Perhaps S04 for dry.
Also, Gigayeast Vermont IPA is a "Double Pitch" liquid yeast, so if making a starter was a concern, this would be a good way to go in liquid form.
Don't forget that a lot of the calcium is precipitated out in the mash.
And seriously, don't worry too much about the absolute numbers. The only place where we really worry about ion concentrations in home brewing is in the water. Ions disappear all over the place as we mash, sparge and boil. There probably are some dedicated folks out there who have the final ion concentrations in the beer analysed, but they are the minority.
And seriously, don't worry too much about the absolute numbers. The only place where we really worry about ion concentrations in home brewing is in the water. Ions disappear all over the place as we mash, sparge and boil. There probably are some dedicated folks out there who have the final ion concentrations in the beer analysed, but they are the minority.
brewski09
Well-Known Member
Thanks. I think I'll add to bottles like previously suggested and see what works for my process and my tastes. I tend to use the same extract when I do brew extract so I'll assume the water profile is the same or very close for every batch they do and work that way until proven otherwise.
brewski09
Well-Known Member
There is nothing like Conan yeast. The double pitch is a great way to go so you don't have to make a starter. Another great way to make a starter is to make a low gravity beer like 1.040 starting gravity or less (you can also do a smaller batch). It also gives you a chance to learn the yeast. Using liquid yeast (at times at least) opens up so many brewing doors for you if you have only used dry before. For the record, I keep a few dry yeasts in my Arsenal for easy brew days.
I do 2.5 gallon batches, so I guess that would mean a quadruple pitch. Does that raise any issues?
Double pitch is just a marketing term. All it really means is that they package twice as many cells as the typical liquid yeast providers such as Wyeast and White Labs.
If you check out a pitching rate calculator (eg MrMalty), you'll see that you need about 100-100bn cells for a 2.5 gallon batch at 1.055. Depending on the viability of the yeast when you receive and actually use it, you will not be overpitching by much if at all based on 200bn packaged cells.
If you check out a pitching rate calculator (eg MrMalty), you'll see that you need about 100-100bn cells for a 2.5 gallon batch at 1.055. Depending on the viability of the yeast when you receive and actually use it, you will not be overpitching by much if at all based on 200bn packaged cells.
Been using a recipe similar to yours for all my Northeast Style beers since the summer and could not be happier. Yours look clearer than mine, but I'm absolutely 100% okay with the haze since it is found in so many beers up here. The base, both your recipe and the variation I have been using, with those yeasts, make for a very balanced beer that lets the hops be the "star of the show." These are two pictures of my Galaxy Pale Ale.
Pictures attached.
Pictures attached.
brewski09
Well-Known Member
I'm looking to start with distilled and build up the profile from there. I'm using the Bru'n spreadsheet and I'll be damned if I can get the adjustments figured out. I started with Braufessor's profile from the first post and then changed the sulfate and chloride to 100/180. I can nail 5 of the 6 numbers but always end up with 1 number that is way off. Of the 6 numbers to dial in, which one is the least important? Or is there some simpler way to adjust the profile?
That is easy. Completely ignore bicarbonate. And when it gives you a negative number for same, ignore that, too. That is a glitch in the program, not a clue that you've just invented negative salt.
OP
OP
I agree - if I was going to ignore a number..... it would have to be bicarbonate - ESPECIALLY if using RO. My tap water is high in bicarbonate naturally, and thus there is some hardness to the profile when I use 80% RO. However, if I was starting with 100% RO, I would never try to add bicarbonate to it.
with all the wheat and oats beersmith keeps giving me high final gravity around 1.018. Will the attenuation from the yeast, i'm using 1318, be higher than expected in beersmith? I'd like the fg to be a touch lower.
OP
OP
I don't use 1318 - so can't tell you for sure. But mine always finishes right in the 1.011-1.012 range (and iBrewmaster usually predict higher than that for me as well). Having good, active starter and keeping fermentation temps in a good range will have a lot to do with your finishing gravity.
OK, so by ignoring bicarb, I can get within a few ppm of each of the other 5 numbers in Bru'n. I'm using gypsum, epsom salt, canning salt and calcium chloride. That leaves my bicarb number at zero. Is that OK?
Is it safe to assume that RO water basically has 0 minerals in it?
OP
OP
That sounds like a good place to start. RO water does not have zero minerals - but it is quite low and for practical purposes it is basically zero. I think it should give you the mineral level of RO in B'run water. When you select your dilution % (100) and type of water (RO) it should give you your starting water profile....... that is what is in RO water. All numbers will be low, but not zero.
Also - remember the first thing you are really targeting is mash pH. So make sure that is where it needs to be. Personally, I have been targeting 5.40-5.45 and I have liked the results.
Id skip the Epsom and canning salt. Just add gypsum to hit your sulfate number and calcium chloride to hit your chloride number.
The malt will provide magnesium in sufficient quantity, and there's really no need to add sodium either.
Measure your mash pH and adjust if neede using lactic acid.
The malt will provide magnesium in sufficient quantity, and there's really no need to add sodium either.
Measure your mash pH and adjust if neede using lactic acid.
OK, I used gypsum to hit the sulfate and calcium chloride to hit the chloride. And then used baking soda to raise the pH to 5.4. That puts my calcium at 143. Is that too high for this beer?
