New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[bailey mountain brewer]

I think it’s preference, but lactic acid tends to be used more on the hb scale due to strength and scale. Phosphorus would be better as it’s tasteless, however I use lactic as it’s what I have on hand and still trying to work through the enormous bottle I bought 5 years ago lol

Yeah, a little goes a longgg way. I bought the phosphoric probably 5 years ago, I do 15 gallon batches, and I haven't put a dent in the bottle of acid... I did go with phosphoric originally because of it being tasteless, I'll play around with it and see what I can dial in with it.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

Well, I ordered some superdelic (haven't brewed with it yet) and .... 2024 galaxy... I know I know, I was placing an order with YVH and said screw it, I'll order it, smell it, and if it passes that test I'll brew with it, dryhop only that is... and see how it goes.. according to YVH it's "back and better then ever" we'll see.

 

[Dwaynehaze]

Well, I ordered some superdelic (haven't brewed with it yet) and .... 2024 galaxy... I know I know, I was placing an order with YVH and said screw it, I'll order it, smell it, and if it passes that test I'll brew with it, dryhop only that is... and see how it goes.. according to YVH it's "back and better then ever" we'll see.

They're always real good with refunding or replacing ****** hops for me so can't hurt

 

[Ulisses4677]

They're always real good with refunding or replacing ****** hops for me so can't hurt

Nelson,mosaic, Superdelic is my next brew. Hopefully this weekend.

 

[Bobby_M]

The BJCP guidelines for 21C Hazy IPA are a joke and do not line up with what we would class as a classic example. Don't know how they got this so wrong. I just got my BJCP qualification a few weeks ago and this really annoyed me while training and studying.

Can you quote or highlight what sections of the guideline description of hazy IPA you disagree with please?

 

[Bobby_M]

Don't worry about hop creep. Pick hops that don't promote it for dry hopping. Cascade and Idaho 7 are notorious hop creepers. But really who cares. If you dry hop with those just carbonate to less CO2 volumes and make sure your FG is high enough to compensate.

Don't take this the wrong way because this is constructive criticism. As a pro brewer, you really need to do some more research on this. Hop creep isn't just about a little extra fermentation, no big deal. It's a perfect way to ruin a beer with diacetyl and/or acetaldehyde.

 

[Dgallo]

Can you quote or highlight what sections of the guideline description of hazy IPA you disagree with please?

I personally dislike these two parts (highlighted in the picture);1) creamy mouthfeels are certainly acceptable and so would fuller/viscous mouthfeels (obviously not overboard). 2) Heavy dryhoped versions with hops high in polyphenols will produce more opaque haze than the “hazy shine” they reference. I’ve never been knocked personally for this but based on the guideline wording, I could

I also dont necessarily like that it only mentions fruit/juicy as being acceptable. This neglects dankness or other non fruit character from hops that add a great layer of complexity and unfortunately judges less familiar with the style will knock points for that. I make a great hazy with strata, Nelson, and Mosiac and though it’s genuinely one of my best hazies, it never goes overall well in comps with judges noting dankness or not fruity enough

 

[CascadesBrewer]

And heavy dryhop versions with hops high in polyphenols will produce more opaque haze than the “hazy shine” they reference.

The way it is written ("should always be drinkable", "not a cloudy, murky mess") sounds like it was written by somebody that hates the style. The phrase "murky mess" seems a bit unprofessional for a style guide. While I agree, I don't want a murky mess, cloudy or a milky haze IS part of the best examples of the style.

 

[LumberZach]

Would it be possible to petition the BJCP to revise or change the category to properly fit the description of what a hazy ipa is?

 

[Bobby_M]

The way it is written ("should always be drinkable", "not a cloudy, murky mess") sounds like it was written by somebody that hates the style. The phrase "murky mess" seems a bit unprofessional for a style guide. While I agree, I don't want a murky mess, cloudy or a milky haze IS part of the best examples of the style.

I agree with that sentiment. I'm pretty sure Gordon Strong was already reluctant to make Hazy IPA a permanent fixture in the guidelines and thought it was going to be a fad similar to the Cascadian Dark and Brut IPA thing. Bias is definitely showing here. To be a little more generous, it was written at a time where many brewers (pro and home) were floundering a bit and adding wheat flour and 20% lactose to try to one up the haze factor or just from a misunderstanding of what the beer is supposed to be.

 

[Bobby_M]

View attachment 858269

I think there is enough ambiguity in the word "creamy". Medium full mouthfeel would be creamy, but I think he's mostly trying to preempt milkshake IPAs from dominating this category.

 

[Dgallo]

I think there is enough ambiguity in the word "creamy". Medium full mouthfeel would be creamy, but I think he's mostly trying to preempt milkshake IPAs from dominating this category.

Ambiguity allows for even more personal preference and interpretation on styles from judges. Just think it needs to be tighten up. I also think any mention of bready malts needs to be omitted or stated like it is with dms in some styles where they state “low levels of ___ are acceptable”.

At the end of the day, the judge is the one that matters and we hope they all interpret the style guidelines the same across competitions, though we know that’s not always the case. Ive had the same beer on the same weekend score a 43 in one comp and a 32 in another. Could it had been packaging, shipping, or storage before comp, absolutely. But it also could have simply been judge preference.

 

[Bobby_M]

I agree the description needs work and any editors that think ill of the style should recuse. I'm just speculating how it got here. Even with edits, the divisive nature will make for some wild swings in interpretation. Better guidelines help when judge pairs heavily disagree. I just with judges would use the "I don't want to judge THESE styles" option when signing up.

 

[Fergal]

Has anyone ever pitched wort onto a previous dry hop? I have a very clean dry hop from a previous beer that was in contact for 48 hours (cali ipa) and I'm considering pitching my hazy wort straight onto it like a day 1 dry hop. I'm tempted to experiment and take one for the team.

I'll be able to drop out the yeast and hops after fermentation. My thoughts are it will add a lot of depth to the beer and then I can finish it off with 1 hop (nectaron) and still have a lot of complexity... Anyone ever tried this?

Previous dry hop was idaho 7, citra, nectaron & galaxy...

 

[aaronm13]

Can you quote or highlight what sections of the guideline description of hazy IPA you disagree with please?

Dgallo pretty much summed up what I disagree with in relation to the styles. I don't agree with the mouthfeel section as a creamy mouthfeel is acceptable and pretty much a given in higher end examples of this style, i.e. Fidens, Equilibrium, Verdant etc. Verdant's yeast even states it leaves a creamy mouthfeel.

Flavor section only mentions fruity or tropical hops but newer hops are bringing so much more, Stratsa for example is very dank and the New Zealand hops bring so much more complexity than just straight up fruit.

I also don't fully agree with appearance as cloudy/ murky is also pretty common in great examples. If this is as you say to prevent milkshake IPAs from dominating this leads to another argument that milkshake IPA needs it's own category or should probably be entered in speciality IPA. This is on the brewer to enter the beer in the correct category.

I understand there has to be a guideline to follow or it just becomes a beauty contest but marking people down for very acceptable characteristics especially if the judge isn't overly familiar with the style shows a flaw in the guidelines to me.

 

[Ulisses4677]

Follow up on my latest batch. It turned out great. Quick question, had any of you ever repitched anything higher than 20 Plato ?

 

[Dgallo]

View attachment 858463
Follow up on my latest batch. It turned out great. Quick question, had any of you ever repitched anything higher than 20 Plato ?

I have. I’m guessing you came in about 8.3% - 8.5% or so, and would be fine. I wouldnt worry at all, assuming you have no issues with sanitation.

That said, I now overbuild starters for the next beer. Easier to manage and ensure viability without many risks.

 

[Ulisses4677]

I have. I’m guessing you came in about 8.3% - 8.5% or so, and would be fine. I wouldnt worry at all, assuming you have no issues with sanitation.

That said, I now overbuild starters for the next beer. Easier to manage and ensure viability without many risks.

Thanks brother.

 

[Ulisses4677]

My beer on the left. Has any of y’all had the chance to drink Troon beers? I know a lot of pro brewers praise Alex helms but in my personal experience I haven’t had the opportunity to consume any good beers from Troon. They’ve all been average at best. I’ve had better beers from fidens, brujos, the test, noble savage. FYI I live in Vegas so I never get a fresh batch.

 

[Dgallo]

View attachment 858473

My beer on the left. Has any of y’all had the chance to drink Troon beers? I know a lot of pro brewers praise Alex helms but in my personal experience I haven’t had the opportunity to consume any good beers from Troon. They’ve all been average at best. I’ve had better beers from fidens, brujos, the test, noble savage. FYI I live in Vegas so I never get a fresh batch.

I have roughly 5 troon beers (some where beer shares) and then maybe 3-4 collabs brewed elsewhere. And I agree with you, nothing has been a banger. Nothing has been awful but all hoppys that I’ve had from then were Very green, vegetal in character, with quite a bit of hop burn.

In my opinion, fidens is pumping out the smoothest and brightest hoppy beers right now. I like that they still primarily use t90 versus products and I think the overall hoppiness is benefited by it. I was just there for lunch on Saturday and brought some cans home and this latest batch of vegan is a banger

 

[Ulisses4677]

I have roughly 5 troon beers (some where beer shares) and then maybe 3-4 collabs brewed elsewhere. And I agree with you, nothing has been a banger. Nothing has been awful but all hoppys that I’ve had from then were Very green, vegetal in character, with quite a bit of hop burn.

In my opinion, fidens is pumping out the smoothest and brightest hoppy beers right now. I like that they still primarily use t90 versus products and I think the overall hoppiness is benefited by it. I was just there for lunch on Saturday and brought some cans home and this latest batch of vegan is a banger View attachment 858475

Fidens is on another level right now. The state of New York is killing the northeast ipa game.

 

[anteater8]

I have roughly 5 troon beers (some where beer shares) and then maybe 3-4 collabs brewed elsewhere. And I agree with you, nothing has been a banger. Nothing has been awful but all hoppys that I’ve had from then were Very green, vegetal in character, with quite a bit of hop burn.

In my opinion, fidens is pumping out the smoothest and brightest hoppy beers right now. I like that they still primarily use t90 versus products and I think the overall hoppiness is benefited by it. I was just there for lunch on Saturday and brought some cans home and this latest batch of vegan is a banger View attachment 858475

Just an anecdote, but I was able to drink some Fiden's (DDH Eugene's Axe) and Brujos (FH Hails) side by side at Brujos the other day. Both were absolutely world class, but Brujos had way more flavor and aroma. Not saying it was better, I could argue that Fiden's had a better overall balance, but anyway it was cool to try two of the best in one sitting.

 

[DevilsCups]

In my opinion, fidens is pumping out the smoothest and brightest hoppy beers right now.

You think they're still using 1272? I remember you mentioning that a bit ago. We brewed a collab with them a few years back up in Albany and I think we used 1318 at that time. The only other collabs we did were at the location I used to be at, and those were definitely 1318 (but at our facility).

I'd like to give it a shot at home, but I'm hesitant.

 

[Dgallo]

Just an anecdote, but I was able to drink some Fiden's (DDH Eugene's Axe) and Brujos (FH Hails) side by side at Brujos the other day. Both were absolutely world class, but Brujos had way more flavor and aroma. Not saying it was better, I could argue that Fiden's had a better overall balance, but anyway it was cool to try two of the best in one sitting.

Wondering if heat during shipping had anything to do with it. That said. I had the DDH NM4NM and for being a DDH it was underwhelming so maybe it was the same for axe.

Haven’t really been trading beer much recently, so I haven’t been able to try anything new west coast hazies.

 

[Dgallo]

You think they're still using 1272? I remember you mentioning that a bit ago. We brewed a collab with them a few years back up in Albany and I think we used 1318 at that time. The only other collabs we did were at the location I used to be at, and those were definitely 1318 (but at our facility).

I'd like to give it a shot at home, but I'm hesitant.

This is a message between Steve and I. This is all I know about their yeast

 

[DevilsCups]

Interesting! I guess I'm just to the point where I'll throw caution to the wind and see how it turns out.

 

[tracer bullet]

I was going to start my post also with "Interesting!".

1272 is my go-to for Pale Ales, I've tried a few things but never that for the hazy's. I settled (prized?) on the 1272 for what I got as citrus from it, and it goes great with Centennial and also Cascade. I'll have to think about it for my next hazy as well it seems.

 

[Ulisses4677]

This is a message between Steve and I. This is all I know about their yeast View attachment 858484

That’s rad.

 

[Dgallo]

That’s rad.

Thanks. Steve’s been a great resource. Super nice guy

 

[balrog]

I was going to start my post also with "Interesting!".

1272 is my go-to for Pale Ales, I've tried a few things but never that for the hazy's. I settled (prized?) on the 1272 for what I got as citrus from it, and it goes great with Centennial and also Cascade. I'll have to think about it for my next hazy as well it seems.

I used it in pales and cream ales and always had a tanginess/tartness that bothered me; admittedly with more American hops, it would blend in.

 

[aaronm13]

This is a message between Steve and I. This is all I know about their yeast View attachment 858484

Thanks for that, love brewer's who are open about these things. I kegged my newest IPA over the weekend that used 1272 for the first time and early tasting is very promising.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Rhere has been recent identification of "haze positive" strains. What about Wyeast 1272? While I have mostly used more typical Hazy IPA strains for the past several years (and my process and recipes have evolved) early on I had some batched with WLP013, S-04, and US-05 that started to drop clear-ish after 3 weeks in the keg. As the haze cleared, the hop flavors faded. Does Wyeast 1272 produce a stable haze?

 

[aaronm13]

Rhere has been recent identification of "haze positive" strains. What about Wyeast 1272? While I have mostly used more typical Hazy IPA strains for the past several years (and my process and recipes have evolved) early on I had some batched with WLP013, S-04, and US-05 that started to drop clear-ish after 3 weeks in the keg. As the haze cleared, the hop flavors faded. Does Wyeast 1272 produce a stable haze?

According to Steve in The CB&B video it does. He said they've opened cans 6 months after packaging and are still as hazy. Time will tell with mine.

 

[couchsending]

Has anyone ever pitched wort onto a previous dry hop? I have a very clean dry hop from a previous beer that was in contact for 48 hours (cali ipa) and I'm considering pitching my hazy wort straight onto it like a day 1 dry hop. I'm tempted to experiment and take one for the team.

I'll be able to drop out the yeast and hops after fermentation. My thoughts are it will add a lot of depth to the beer and then I can finish it off with 1 hop (nectaron) and still have a lot of complexity... Anyone ever tried this?

Previous dry hop was idaho 7, citra, nectaron & galaxy...

Did you end up trying this? I’ve wanted to explore this for a few years now but have never gotten around to doing it. I’ve found a few articles with mention of it but that’s about it.

Flavor and aroma extraction from hops is very low so in theory there should be a lot more left in those hops we dry hop with. I’d think that if you had removed as much yeast as possible before DH in the first batch and maybe even dump the first stuff that settles there should be no issue. After you pitch the second beer I wouldn’t wait until the end of fermentation to start dumping hops. It probably wouldn’t hurt to start dumping 24-36 hours into fermentation depending on activity and could be better for overall yeast health and fermentation.

I think in an ideal world you’d want to pitch a larger beer onto a dry hop from something smaller but maybe not super critical. I’ve even thought of doing a closed transfer of the spent DH into another vessel and knocking out onto that instead of going into the same vessel. Or even transferring them into a brink of sorts and then shooting that into another tank.

 

[Dgallo]

Did you end up trying this? I’ve wanted to explore this for a few years now but have never gotten around to doing it. I’ve found a few articles with mention of it but that’s about it.

Flavor and aroma extraction from hops is very low so in theory there should be a lot more left in those hops we dry hop with. I’d think that if you had removed as much yeast as possible before DH in the first batch and maybe even dump the first stuff that settles there should be no issue. After you pitch the second beer I wouldn’t wait until the end of fermentation to start dumping hops. It probably wouldn’t hurt to start dumping 24-36 hours into fermentation depending on activity and could be better for overall yeast health and fermentation.

I think in an ideal world you’d want to pitch a larger beer onto a dry hop from something smaller but maybe not super critical. I’ve even thought of doing a closed transfer of the spent DH into another vessel and knocking out onto that instead of going into the same vessel. Or even transferring them into a brink of sorts and then shooting that into another tank.

Im pretty sure I read a few years back that wayfinder (or someone PNW) was doing this. But if I recall correctly they were utilizing their previous Dryhop load into their next beers whirlpool. Which seems like it might be a little more practical with far less risk.

 

[couchsending]

Not sure there's really any more risk than adding incognito at knockout or dry hopping on day 1. Putting a beer into the same tank without cleaning it
first might not be the best but I doubt there's much in that tank that would have a negative impact if everything is kept sanitary and is kept under some positive pressure. I wouldn't repitch the yeast from a batch where I did this but that's how we treat any beer that's been dry hopped before yeast has been removed.

I found the article. There are three breweries in the article using spent dry hops again in another dry hop. Bosque, Forest & Main, Black Narrows. It's
a Craft Beer & Brewing article. If you search Recycle Hops it should be easy to find.

 

[Dgallo]

Not sure there's really any more risk than adding incognito at knockout or dry hopping on day 1. Putting a beer into the same tank without cleaning it
first might not be the best but I doubt there's much in that tank that would have a negative impact if everything is kept sanitary and is kept under some positive pressure. I wouldn't repitch the yeast from a batch where I did this but that's how we treat any beer that's been dry hopped before yeast has been removed.

I found the article. There are three breweries in the article using spent dry hops again in another dry hop. Bosque, Forest & Main, Black Narrows. It's
a Craft Beer & Brewing article. If you search Recycle Hops it should be easy to find.

absolutely. A brewery/hber with sound practices and sanitation wouldn’t have an issue. But they understand the potential risk and have therefore put in practices to minimize/negate the risk. As I’m sure you know, not every brewery is solid in those department and that is why I said using those previous run dryhops in the whirlpool would Minimize the risk

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

I would likely not do this, but the thought of saving some of the copious amount of hops we use is appealing ... I wonder how you would calculate utilization or oil content. So if you dry hopped at 5lb per barrel and then used that entire dry hop in the next batch for whirlpool, would you assume maybe half of what those hops had would still be available leaving you with an equivalent of 2.5lb per barrel for said whirlpool, or would it be less, like 25% .. I know when I dump trub before kegging I'm like, dang these smell awesome, sucks to dump them in the garbage... so clearly one would think they could be used to a certain extent.

 

[Fergal]

I did go for it. I went straight into the fermenter from the previous beer. I had given the previous beer a prolonged crash before dry hopping so less yeast than usual. I also managed to siphon off all the beer and then dumped a bit out of the bottom, I ended up with Approx 2L of hops to begin with. I brewed a slightly bigger batch than usual - 26L aiming for 18 - 19 into the keg. I didn't drop any hops during the fermentation but wish I had done in hindsight. The beer was green for a while and the aroma is pretty spectacular. The ferment is just finishing up now so I'm going to attempt to drop as much solid matter as possible before dry hop. Will keep you updated...

 

[Dgallo]

I would likely not do this, but the thought of saving some of the copious amount of hops we use is appealing ... I wonder how you would calculate utilization or oil content. So if you dry hopped at 5lb per barrel and then used that entire dry hop in the next batch for whirlpool, would you assume maybe half of what those hops had would still be available leaving you with an equivalent of 2.5lb per barrel for said whirlpool, or would it be less, like 25% .. I know when I dump trub before kegging I'm like, dang these smell awesome, sucks to dump them in the garbage... so clearly one would think they could be used to a certain extent.

I can’t even to begin to give any science behind/about it.

If I were to try the whirlpool after a dryhop, I’d scrape the top off where there might be excess yeast. Then use the middle portions of the hop cake. Maybe say I’m using 60-70-% of original volume of hops (Might be generous, have no idea) and would probably count it as 1/2 of the calculated ibus i’d get from that size of a whirlpool with fresh hops