New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[bailey mountain brewer]

Classic example = heady topper.

Not what I aim for with this style, just saying.

 

[aaronm13]

Classic example = heady topper.

Not what I aim for with this style, just saying.

Exactly. That's my point with the BJCP. I'm aiming for Other Half, Fidens, Verdant. These are peak examples of this style.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

Exactly. That's my point with the BJCP. I'm aiming for Other Half, Fidens, Verdant. These are peak examples of this style.

Yes, I agree with you on that. I aim for the same as you.

 

[ihavenonickname]

Anyone have a calculator to help predict how much citric acid (solid) or lactic acid to add with dry hops? Or during whirpool for that matter. My experience from trial and measure is 3-4 ml lactic acid drop my kettle (7gal wort) from 5.2 to 5.0. But that’s about all I have to go off. Anyone else have data points of their experience?

 

[Dgallo]

Anyone have a calculator to help predict how much citric acid (solid) or lactic acid to add with dry hops? Or during whirpool for that matter. My experience from trial and measure is 3-4 ml lactic acid drop my kettle (7gal wort) from 5.2 to 5.0. But that’s about all I have to go off. Anyone else have data points of their experience?

It’s going to be hard since everyone is going to have a different buffer based on their water, grain bill, and amount of hops. The best way to figure this out is to scale it. Degas a beer that is your typical grainbil/hop rate. Then measure ph. Buy your self a dropper or syringe that goes to tenths of a ml. Start by adding 1/10 ml and see what ph drop you get(trying to see how much you need to drop the ph of the pint by 0.1. Once yo find that try a few beers targeting 4.3,4.4, and 4.5 and see which you think drinks the best. Then you’ll scale up to a full keg

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

Out of curiosity, is lactic preferred for later corrections? I adjust my ph with 85% phosphoric acid, I assume I could use this to adjust fermenter ph as well... honestly I go about adjusting my water a completely different way, I don't rely on spread sheets or water calculators. I use a salifert kit to measure my alkalinity, I do have a ward report (private well), I add phosphoric acid until I get my alkalinity/hardness CaCO³ under 30ppm, I know that this takes approximately .1ml to .2ml of acid per gallon of water for me to go from 98ppm to 25ish ppm and my mash ph usually comes in between 5.2 and 5.3 so in my mind, if I'm using .2ml per gallon, I wonder if for scaling purposes this acid is to strong to try to adjust in a pint with the dropper I have, though it is graduated to hundreds of a ml. Maybe I'd be better off using lactic acid for this particular purpose. I might be getting a little off topic for this thread so I apologize for that.

 

[Greg Morris]

Edit: my question is just does “dip hopping” avoid hop creep or embrace it?

I mostly like to take the approach of “avoiding” hop creep by dry hopping colder and short, using ALDC, and always keeping cold. This certainly helps keep the FG high. If I want to use something in the mid ferment I use incognito or spectrum which also works well.

Is there any way to use pellets mid fermentation and still avoid hop creep and Keep the FG/body big? what about dip hopping? Is a short contact with hot wort enough to kill the enzymes to avoid hop creep?

Don't worry about hop creep. Pick hops that don't promote it for dry hopping. Cascade and Idaho 7 are notorious hop creepers. But really who cares. If you dry hop with those just carbonate to less CO2 volumes and make sure your FG is high enough to compensate.

 

[Greg Morris]

Out of curiosity, is lactic preferred for later corrections? I adjust my ph with 85% phosphoric acid, I assume I could use this to adjust fermenter ph as well... honestly I go about adjusting my water a completely different way, I don't rely on spread sheets or water calculators. I use a salifert kit to measure my alkalinity, I do have a ward report (private well), I add phosphoric acid until I get my alkalinity/hardness CaCO³ under 30ppm, I know that this takes approximately .1ml to .2ml of acid per gallon of water for me to go from 98ppm to 25ish ppm and my mash ph usually comes in between 5.2 and 5.3 so in my mind, if I'm using .2ml per gallon, I wonder if for scaling purposes this acid is to strong to try to adjust in a pint with the dropper I have, though it is graduated to hundreds of a ml. Maybe I'd be better off using lactic acid for this particular purpose. I might be getting a little off topic for this thread so I apologize for that.

We use 88% lactic acid. Know that water absorbs carbon after RO processing or atmospheric absorbtion with regular water. Your strike/HLT water will be around 5.8-5.9ph. Most light malts will make your ph for mash within the range without doing anything to the water. Depending on style you need to adjust or not. However it's best to take a sample of ph from fermenter before fermentation or at whirlpool to identify whether or not further treatment is needed, and then go from there. Target 4.95-5.15ph depending on style into your fermenter.

 

[Dgallo]

Don't worry about hop creep. Pick hops that don't promote it for dry hopping. Cascade and Idaho 7 are notorious hop creepers. But really who cares. If you dry hop with those just carbonate to less CO2 volumes and make sure your FG is high enough to compensate.

You probably want to worry about hopcreep….. reformation of VDK, creation of hop burn, changing of mouthfeel, stripping of hop compounds to just mention a few

 

[Dgallo]

Out of curiosity, is lactic preferred for later corrections? I adjust my ph with 85% phosphoric acid, I assume I could use this to adjust fermenter ph as well... honestly I go about adjusting my water a completely different way, I don't rely on spread sheets or water calculators. I use a salifert kit to measure my alkalinity, I do have a ward report (private well), I add phosphoric acid until I get my alkalinity/hardness CaCO³ under 30ppm, I know that this takes approximately .1ml to .2ml of acid per gallon of water for me to go from 98ppm to 25ish ppm and my mash ph usually comes in between 5.2 and 5.3 so in my mind, if I'm using .2ml per gallon, I wonder if for scaling purposes this acid is to strong to try to adjust in a pint with the dropper I have, though it is graduated to hundreds of a ml. Maybe I'd be better off using lactic acid for this particular purpose. I might be getting a little off topic for this thread so I apologize for that.

I think it’s preference, but lactic acid tends to be used more on the hb scale due to strength and scale. Phosphoric would be better as it’s tasteless, however I use lactic as it’s what I have on hand and still trying to work through the enormous bottle I bought 5 years ago lol

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

I think it’s preference, but lactic acid tends to be used more on the hb scale due to strength and scale. Phosphorus would be better as it’s tasteless, however I use lactic as it’s what I have on hand and still trying to work through the enormous bottle I bought 5 years ago lol

Yeah, a little goes a longgg way. I bought the phosphoric probably 5 years ago, I do 15 gallon batches, and I haven't put a dent in the bottle of acid... I did go with phosphoric originally because of it being tasteless, I'll play around with it and see what I can dial in with it.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

Well, I ordered some superdelic (haven't brewed with it yet) and .... 2024 galaxy... I know I know, I was placing an order with YVH and said screw it, I'll order it, smell it, and if it passes that test I'll brew with it, dryhop only that is... and see how it goes.. according to YVH it's "back and better then ever" we'll see.

 

[Dwaynehaze]

Well, I ordered some superdelic (haven't brewed with it yet) and .... 2024 galaxy... I know I know, I was placing an order with YVH and said screw it, I'll order it, smell it, and if it passes that test I'll brew with it, dryhop only that is... and see how it goes.. according to YVH it's "back and better then ever" we'll see.

They're always real good with refunding or replacing ****** hops for me so can't hurt

 

[Ulisses4677]

They're always real good with refunding or replacing ****** hops for me so can't hurt

Nelson,mosaic, Superdelic is my next brew. Hopefully this weekend.

 

[Bobby_M]

The BJCP guidelines for 21C Hazy IPA are a joke and do not line up with what we would class as a classic example. Don't know how they got this so wrong. I just got my BJCP qualification a few weeks ago and this really annoyed me while training and studying.

Can you quote or highlight what sections of the guideline description of hazy IPA you disagree with please?

 

[Bobby_M]

Don't worry about hop creep. Pick hops that don't promote it for dry hopping. Cascade and Idaho 7 are notorious hop creepers. But really who cares. If you dry hop with those just carbonate to less CO2 volumes and make sure your FG is high enough to compensate.

Don't take this the wrong way because this is constructive criticism. As a pro brewer, you really need to do some more research on this. Hop creep isn't just about a little extra fermentation, no big deal. It's a perfect way to ruin a beer with diacetyl and/or acetaldehyde.

 

[Dgallo]

Can you quote or highlight what sections of the guideline description of hazy IPA you disagree with please?

I personally dislike these two parts (highlighted in the picture);1) creamy mouthfeels are certainly acceptable and so would fuller/viscous mouthfeels (obviously not overboard). 2) Heavy dryhoped versions with hops high in polyphenols will produce more opaque haze than the “hazy shine” they reference. I’ve never been knocked personally for this but based on the guideline wording, I could

I also dont necessarily like that it only mentions fruit/juicy as being acceptable. This neglects dankness or other non fruit character from hops that add a great layer of complexity and unfortunately judges less familiar with the style will knock points for that. I make a great hazy with strata, Nelson, and Mosiac and though it’s genuinely one of my best hazies, it never goes overall well in comps with judges noting dankness or not fruity enough

 

[CascadesBrewer]

And heavy dryhop versions with hops high in polyphenols will produce more opaque haze than the “hazy shine” they reference.

The way it is written ("should always be drinkable", "not a cloudy, murky mess") sounds like it was written by somebody that hates the style. The phrase "murky mess" seems a bit unprofessional for a style guide. While I agree, I don't want a murky mess, cloudy or a milky haze IS part of the best examples of the style.

 

[LumberZach]

Would it be possible to petition the BJCP to revise or change the category to properly fit the description of what a hazy ipa is?

 

[Bobby_M]

The way it is written ("should always be drinkable", "not a cloudy, murky mess") sounds like it was written by somebody that hates the style. The phrase "murky mess" seems a bit unprofessional for a style guide. While I agree, I don't want a murky mess, cloudy or a milky haze IS part of the best examples of the style.

I agree with that sentiment. I'm pretty sure Gordon Strong was already reluctant to make Hazy IPA a permanent fixture in the guidelines and thought it was going to be a fad similar to the Cascadian Dark and Brut IPA thing. Bias is definitely showing here. To be a little more generous, it was written at a time where many brewers (pro and home) were floundering a bit and adding wheat flour and 20% lactose to try to one up the haze factor or just from a misunderstanding of what the beer is supposed to be.

 

[Bobby_M]

View attachment 858269

I think there is enough ambiguity in the word "creamy". Medium full mouthfeel would be creamy, but I think he's mostly trying to preempt milkshake IPAs from dominating this category.

 

[Dgallo]

I think there is enough ambiguity in the word "creamy". Medium full mouthfeel would be creamy, but I think he's mostly trying to preempt milkshake IPAs from dominating this category.

Ambiguity allows for even more personal preference and interpretation on styles from judges. Just think it needs to be tighten up. I also think any mention of bready malts needs to be omitted or stated like it is with dms in some styles where they state “low levels of ___ are acceptable”.

At the end of the day, the judge is the one that matters and we hope they all interpret the style guidelines the same across competitions, though we know that’s not always the case. Ive had the same beer on the same weekend score a 43 in one comp and a 32 in another. Could it had been packaging, shipping, or storage before comp, absolutely. But it also could have simply been judge preference.

 

[Bobby_M]

I agree the description needs work and any editors that think ill of the style should recuse. I'm just speculating how it got here. Even with edits, the divisive nature will make for some wild swings in interpretation. Better guidelines help when judge pairs heavily disagree. I just with judges would use the "I don't want to judge THESE styles" option when signing up.

 

[Fergal]

Has anyone ever pitched wort onto a previous dry hop? I have a very clean dry hop from a previous beer that was in contact for 48 hours (cali ipa) and I'm considering pitching my hazy wort straight onto it like a day 1 dry hop. I'm tempted to experiment and take one for the team.

I'll be able to drop out the yeast and hops after fermentation. My thoughts are it will add a lot of depth to the beer and then I can finish it off with 1 hop (nectaron) and still have a lot of complexity... Anyone ever tried this?

Previous dry hop was idaho 7, citra, nectaron & galaxy...

 

[aaronm13]

Can you quote or highlight what sections of the guideline description of hazy IPA you disagree with please?

Dgallo pretty much summed up what I disagree with in relation to the styles. I don't agree with the mouthfeel section as a creamy mouthfeel is acceptable and pretty much a given in higher end examples of this style, i.e. Fidens, Equilibrium, Verdant etc. Verdant's yeast even states it leaves a creamy mouthfeel.

Flavor section only mentions fruity or tropical hops but newer hops are bringing so much more, Stratsa for example is very dank and the New Zealand hops bring so much more complexity than just straight up fruit.

I also don't fully agree with appearance as cloudy/ murky is also pretty common in great examples. If this is as you say to prevent milkshake IPAs from dominating this leads to another argument that milkshake IPA needs it's own category or should probably be entered in speciality IPA. This is on the brewer to enter the beer in the correct category.

I understand there has to be a guideline to follow or it just becomes a beauty contest but marking people down for very acceptable characteristics especially if the judge isn't overly familiar with the style shows a flaw in the guidelines to me.

 

[Ulisses4677]

Follow up on my latest batch. It turned out great. Quick question, had any of you ever repitched anything higher than 20 Plato ?

 

[Dgallo]

View attachment 858463
Follow up on my latest batch. It turned out great. Quick question, had any of you ever repitched anything higher than 20 Plato ?

I have. I’m guessing you came in about 8.3% - 8.5% or so, and would be fine. I wouldnt worry at all, assuming you have no issues with sanitation.

That said, I now overbuild starters for the next beer. Easier to manage and ensure viability without many risks.

 

[Ulisses4677]

I have. I’m guessing you came in about 8.3% - 8.5% or so, and would be fine. I wouldnt worry at all, assuming you have no issues with sanitation.

That said, I now overbuild starters for the next beer. Easier to manage and ensure viability without many risks.

Thanks brother.

 

[Ulisses4677]

My beer on the left. Has any of y’all had the chance to drink Troon beers? I know a lot of pro brewers praise Alex helms but in my personal experience I haven’t had the opportunity to consume any good beers from Troon. They’ve all been average at best. I’ve had better beers from fidens, brujos, the test, noble savage. FYI I live in Vegas so I never get a fresh batch.

 

[Dgallo]

View attachment 858473

My beer on the left. Has any of y’all had the chance to drink Troon beers? I know a lot of pro brewers praise Alex helms but in my personal experience I haven’t had the opportunity to consume any good beers from Troon. They’ve all been average at best. I’ve had better beers from fidens, brujos, the test, noble savage. FYI I live in Vegas so I never get a fresh batch.

I have roughly 5 troon beers (some where beer shares) and then maybe 3-4 collabs brewed elsewhere. And I agree with you, nothing has been a banger. Nothing has been awful but all hoppys that I’ve had from then were Very green, vegetal in character, with quite a bit of hop burn.

In my opinion, fidens is pumping out the smoothest and brightest hoppy beers right now. I like that they still primarily use t90 versus products and I think the overall hoppiness is benefited by it. I was just there for lunch on Saturday and brought some cans home and this latest batch of vegan is a banger