Need a substitute for London Ale III aka Boddinton's yeast

[kmarkstevens]

I just got home. Realized I bottled before my trip without bringing it up to 70F diacetyl rest. My ordinary bitter as been bottle conditioning for 2 weeks at 60F ambient in my garage. It's developed a clove/spice taste for sure. Not offensive but a bit distracting and not really a positive IMHO. Did not use any finings and it hasn't cleared.

I'll let it age a few more weeks, and will probably make a few more small batches to see how things develop.

 

[ong]

I brought my 1037 best bitter to my brew club without really providing much information, and it was described as a “Belgian table beer” and “bitter brewed in a farmhouse.”

Kmarkstevens, I doubt a D-rest would have lessened the phenolic flavor. I think that’s just how this yeast expresses. Mine is also extremely cloudy still, although it’s only been chilled for a week or so.

 

[kmarkstevens]

I'm going to do a split batch with Yorkie Squares, Belle Saison and T-58 to compare and frankly whether I want to keep any of them.

I've got 5 gallons of a Yorkie square ordinary bitter ageing in the carboy waiting for my keg to empty..

Regardless, I quite like the White Labs vault yeast. For just under $10 American, you get a big vial of yeast delivered to your front door. I got the 611 Nordic Strain. 85 English Ale blend actually got when I visited White Labs over a year ago and had just enough time to slam a flight and purchase a vial.

I love the 85 English Ale blend. It is clean, pretty low attenuation (while avoiding the overly sweet residue taste of 02), flocculent and works really well for 1030 - 1040 session ales. I've got a few others on order. I kinda like that you have to wait for when enough people pony up, it gets fermented and shipped out, and then eagerly find it in the mailbox kinda like a Christmas present from a distant Uncle that you can't wait to rip open and pitch for the helluva it. The journey as important as the result, and if I come out with 10% keepers I'll be happy. YMMV

 

[ong]

Yes, I think the Vault program is really cool, even if I’m not thrilled about the 1037 yeast! It’s like GoFundMe for yeasts.

 

[ba-brewer]

I just got home. Realized I bottled before my trip without bringing it up to 70F diacetyl rest. My ordinary bitter as been bottle conditioning for 2 weeks at 60F ambient in my garage. It's developed a clove/spice taste for sure. Not offensive but a bit distracting and not really a positive IMHO. Did not use any finings and it hasn't cleared.

I'll let it age a few more weeks, and will probably make a few more small batches to see how things develop.

Well you sort of dashed my hopes that fermenting at near lager temp might tame the phenols of this yeast, may my still try it cool to see how it turns it.

 

[kmarkstevens]

So, I did a split yeast test with Yorkshire Square (WLP037), West Yorkshire (Wyeast 1469) and Danstar Nottingham based on this Boddington's Nut Brown Ale from 1930 (nice recipe) http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2016/05/lets-brew-wednesday-1939-boddington-mild.html
6 gallons split into brewpig containers:
1/2# Crystal 60L
14oz flaked corn
4oz American Wheat
3.2oz 6 row
2oz black treacle
40 IBU
Mashed 150 x90 minutes
OG: 1036
FG Yorkie Sq: 1006
FG W Yorkie: 1012
FG Notty: 1009

The Yorkshire Sq had sulfur odor 1 week into the ferment and then was gone by the two week mark. Bottled after 14 days with no D rest. I swirled the brewpig about twice a day (and the other two) for a week or so, careful

Yorkshire Square: most spicy/clove taste out of the three. Also most cloudy with better head retention. flash photo makes it look yellow, but in real life it is a bit lighter than the notty but more yeasty/cloudy. Too spicy for my palette. To me, it's distracting from the beer

West Yorkshire: has spice but maybe 50% of the Yorkie Sq yeast. Not so strong or noticeable. Some may prefer this as more complex than the Notty. Me, I prefer the cleaner notty. Darkest of the three

Nottingham: Cleanest tasting, lightest color of the three and clearest. this is still one of my go to yeasts and acts as a control in the test. (I am doing lower octane beers so this attenuates higher than I would prefer just from an ABV point of view).

I'm kegging a different Yorkie Square recipe tonight. Again, to my palate, the spicy notes are at the distracting level but maybe e better after it carbonates. Who's to say what the taste would be like with a real Yorkshire traditional treatment with the wort sprayed on the top multiple times per brew day. In my garage, with my technique, most likely my banked Yorkie Squares won't be utilized in the future.

 

[ong]

Yeah, I won’t be using the Yorkshire Square again — and maybe dumping the rest of the keg once I’ve got something more enjoyable ready to transfer.

 

[kmarkstevens]

@ong, did you try kegging or bottle conditioning? I made a 4% best bitter (OG 1043, FG 1013) fermented under 60F ambient in the garage, kegged it, and the spicy clove has receded considerably compared with my bottle ferment test. To my palette, its a bit spicy, just a hint of clove, and thankfully much more in the background. Adds complexity not found in S-04, WLP02, but I'm not sure this is an improvement per say. I don't think most tasters would peg this as a "saison". Not my favorite taste but I just had 2 pints, so it's not like I have to force it down.

Not sure if increasing the OG to 1043 vs the bottle conditioned ordinary bitter that was OG 1036 makes a difference?

Will keep testing the bottled ordinary over time to see how it changes. I don't think I'm ready to try "master" this yeast, although the kegged version is far more encouraging than the bottled I did.

 

[ong]

@ong, did you try kegging or bottle conditioning? I made a 4% best bitter (OG 1043, FG 1013) fermented under 60F ambient in the garage, kegged it, and the spicy clove has receded considerably compared with my bottle ferment test. To my palette, its a bit spicy, just a hint of clove, and thankfully much more in the background. Adds complexity not found in S-04, WLP02, but I'm not sure this is an improvement per say. I don't think most tasters would peg this as a "saison". Not my favorite taste but I just had 2 pints, so it's not like I have to force it down.

I kegged it. My bitter sounds similar to yours, although I fermented around 64°. It’s still a massive phenol bomb. I did a substantial dry hop (Bramling and EKG) but all I can taste is cloves.

 

[kmarkstevens]

@ong This is trey weird. I am drinking a bottle conditioned Yorkshire Square brewed on 17 Nov (photos above), and the clove/spice has pretty much dropped out. It has NOT cleared and is cloudy as all get out. It's no longer distracting nor offensive, but I'm not sure I like it. Don't have a side by side but probably could get something similar with Windsor.

I was ready to throw in the towel on this yeast as too complex for me, but maybe I should keep trying with some small batches to see what I might coax out of this...

 

[shoreman]

Conan is the best English yeast I've used in my almost 20 years of homebrewing - especially this version https://omegayeast.com/yeast/ales/dipa-ale - been using it for the past 2 years consistently. Just make sure its fermented at about 66-68 and you are golden.

It drops clear quickly if you want it to, but will produce great NEIPA if you want to do the bio thing.

 

[ong]

@ong This is trey weird. I am drinking a bottle conditioned Yorkshire Square brewed on 17 Nov (photos above), and the clove/spice has pretty much dropped out. It has NOT cleared and is cloudy as all get out. It's no longer distracting nor offensive, but I'm not sure I like it. Don't have a side by side but probably could get something similar with Windsor.

I was ready to throw in the towel on this yeast as too complex for me, but maybe I should keep trying with some small batches to see what I might coax out of this...

Interesting. I don’t find anything redeeming about the yeast, so I think I’m done experimenting with it. Maybe I’ll find someone to pass my stocks on to.

 

[kmarkstevens]

I'm making a last try. I have about 10 English yeasties to do side by side comparisons of (so will make 3-4 split batches using the same recipe over the next month or so). First two are WLP 23 Burton and WLP37 Yorkie Squares. This time, since Yorkie Squares like to be agitated, I have decided to you a paint stirrer for about two minutes every morning and evening for 3-4 days. See how that turns out before giving up on the yeast.

 

[ong]

I'm making a last try. I have about 10 English yeasties to do side by side comparisons of (so will make 3-4 split batches using the same recipe over the next month or so). First two are WLP 23 Burton and WLP37 Yorkie Squares. This time, since Yorkie Squares like to be agitated, I have decided to you a paint stirrer for about two minutes every morning and evening for 3-4 days. See how that turns out before giving up on the yeast.

Never give up on CloveBomb2019!

 

[kmarkstevens]

Well, that was a bust. Fermented at 64F ambient. Hit it with a wine de-gasser/paint stirrer for 30 seconds every morning and evening to rouse the yeast. Might as well be drinking clove extract. POF is definitely there. Now, maybe it will age, drop out and leave an amazing result, and maybe a monkey will grow wings and fly out of my butt. I'll bottle and age it, but this yeast is beyond my modest skills.

BTW, I'm doing split batches with about a dozen different English yeasts with more or less the same recipe and more or less the same conditions, but it's going to take a few months and a few batches to get there. My intention is to get to a short-list of the yeasts I like and chalk the rest up to an interesting experience. 99% sure that Yorkshire squares will join London III, Windsor and CBC in the "been there, done that" list. Will be interesting, at least to me, to see if WLP85 and Nottingham make the keeper list.

What the hey, my list is:
Pub / WLP002 (supposedly the same strain, but in previous split batches I much prefer Pub)
WLP85
Nottingham
Windsor
W Yorkie WY1469
Yorkie Squares WLP37
Burton Ale Yeast WLP23
British Ale II Adnan's WY1332
S-04
Irish WLP04
London III
CBC
Anything else that might come out of the WLP vault before I'm done.

 

[ong]

Well, that was a bust. Fermented at 64F ambient. Hit it with a wine de-gasser/paint stirrer for 30 seconds every morning and evening to rouse the yeast. Might as well be drinking clove extract. POF is definitely there. Now, maybe it will age, drop out and leave an amazing result, and maybe a monkey will grow wings and fly out of my butt. I'll bottle and age it, but this yeast is beyond my modest skills.

BTW, I'm doing split batches with about a dozen different English yeasts with more or less the same recipe and more or less the same conditions, but it's going to take a few months and a few batches to get there. My intention is to get to a short-list of the yeasts I like and chalk the rest up to an interesting experience. 99% sure that Yorkshire squares will join London III, Windsor and CBC in the "been there, done that" list. Will be interesting, at least to me, to see if WLP85 and Nottingham make the keeper list.

What the hey, my list is:
Pub / WLP002 (supposedly the same strain, but in previous split batches I much prefer Pub)
WLP85
Nottingham
Windsor
W Yorkie WY1469
Yorkie Squares WLP37
Burton Ale Yeast WLP23
British Ale II Adnan's WY1332
S-04
Irish WLP04
London III
CBC
Anything else that might come out of the WLP vault before I'm done.

That will be interesting to hear about! I’ve thought about doing something similar but never gotten motivated.

The experiment I am thinking about trying this month is splitting a 3 gallon batch of wort, and doing a different single 60 minute hop addition to each, to see if bittering hops really make a perceptible difference.

 

[ba-brewer]

Well, that was a bust. Fermented at 64F ambient. Hit it with a wine de-gasser/paint stirrer for 30 seconds every morning and evening to rouse the yeast. Might as well be drinking clove extract. POF is definitely there. Now, maybe it will age, drop out and leave an amazing result, and maybe a monkey will grow wings and fly out of my butt. I'll bottle and age it, but this yeast is beyond my modest skills.

BTW, I'm doing split batches with about a dozen different English yeasts with more or less the same recipe and more or less the same conditions, but it's going to take a few months and a few batches to get there. My intention is to get to a short-list of the yeasts I like and chalk the rest up to an interesting experience. 99% sure that Yorkshire squares will join London III, Windsor and CBC in the "been there, done that" list. Will be interesting, at least to me, to see if WLP85 and Nottingham make the keeper list.

What the hey, my list is:
Pub / WLP002 (supposedly the same strain, but in previous split batches I much prefer Pub)
WLP85
Nottingham
Windsor
W Yorkie WY1469
Yorkie Squares WLP37
Burton Ale Yeast WLP23
British Ale II Adnan's WY1332
S-04
Irish WLP04
London III
CBC
Anything else that might come out of the WLP vault before I'm done.

I really hope you get that monkey thing to work. Summer is not too far off, a semi dry saison might taste pretty good then.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Anything else that might come out of the WLP vault before I'm done.

There's not much interesting planned for this year, although you might still find WLP006 Bedford kicking around in the retail chain, which was a Q4 release that has a good reputation - I've got some fermenting as we speak. But most of the seasonal releases they're planning on the ale front are pretty clean - WLP019 California IV, WLP072 French, WLP003 German II (close to 1007?), WLP039 East Midlands (close to Notty) and WLP515 Antwerp (Belgium's "Chico"). Hopefully Wyeast will manage something more British.

You might want to give WLP041 a go though, I've only used it once and while not the flashiest yeast it had that "one-more-pint" drinkability to it that's rather appealing.

WLP026 is the one I really want to come out of the Vault, as a POF- saison type.

 

[kmarkstevens]

@Northern_Brewer WLP026 currently needs 117 more orders until it ships. Not sure if you're aware of the vault program or can get the vault strains shipped overseas? These can be included in the seasonal releases but has a separate release program. As soon as they get enough orders, they culture up a run and ship it out. I've noticed the countdown speeds up as they get close to 150 orders. And I've also noticed that when it goes into production, you can also place an order (you don't have to be in the 150 order lot). I've gotten a few, have several on order, and both Marañón Canyon Wild Cacao and the Scottish Cider blend are both coming my way soon to test in a cyser. So far, my preferred cyser yeast remains notty.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Oh, I'm well aware of how the Vault works, which is why it's so frustrating that it only works with US credit cards - I'm sure some of the rarer British strains would get a few more orders if that was changed.

The other interesting one would be WLP037 Manchester which is another POF+ saison type, but at current progress it will hit the 150 some time in the late 2020s...

 

[ba-brewer]

Maybe they will do another purge to flush the system.

I am rethinking the vault and seasonal offering, think about pick something easy to get and figure out how to get the most of it.

 

[kmarkstevens]

Oh, I'm well aware of how the Vault works, which is why it's so frustrating that it only works with US credit cards - I'm sure some of the rarer British strains would get a few more orders if that was changed.

The other interesting one would be WLP037 Manchester which is another POF+ saison type, but at current progress it will hit the 150 some time in the late 2020s...

That's a pisser. Brewlab and White Labs should do a cross continent deal. Sea ship probably is fine in the winter months, but not sure about when it gets warmer. Anyhoo, ping me if there's something incredible coming on offer, and will see if I can send you a tube or a slant.

That said, I think there is a reason why the yeasts are in the vault and not in the standard greatest hits collection available year round. I take that back. WLP085 for example is fantastic (it's WLP02 and 07? mixed), flocculates like a cottage cheese, is very clean, and avoids the overly sweetness of 02. (I only got it because I did a 15 minute drive by of White Labs in San Diego 18 months ago, and it's been stuck in the vault with only 2 orders for months). It should be a standard offering. Yorkshire Squares, on the other hand, is beyond my modest ability. Furthermore, I found that the 100+ lab hours spent on WLP611/Torulaspora delbrueckii didn't help humanity much.

I will say again that I think the Vault program is completely awesome. $9.43 including shipping to your door, so what's not to like? I know even with cherry picking the offerings, that it will be hit and miss for me, but I still have about 10 strains on order and eagerly awaiting delivery of each one.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

That's a pisser. Brewlab and White Labs should do a cross continent deal. Sea ship probably is fine in the winter months, but not sure about when it gets warmer. Anyhoo, ping me if there's something incredible coming on offer, and will see if I can send you a tube or a slant.

That's kind of you, I should be OK thanks, my ratio of brewing to yeasts waiting in the fridge is already too low! Brewlab aren't really interested in homebrewers any more, more trouble than it's worth. We do have access to Vault strains as there's some kind of system for our retailers to order them but White Labs have been in such chaos for the last year that it's not been terribly reliable even for the seasonal releases. There are signs they are slowly sorting themselves out, but they've annoyed a lot of people in the process. Even if WLP037 just becomes my saison strain, I can live with that. WLP002 isn't overly sweet, your recipe may be. If you look back in history a lot of British brewers were only getting 60% attenuation.

 

[kmarkstevens]

Calling all Yeastie Boys. White Labs is going to put all vault yeast into production on 1 July. Here's your chance to get something like WLP85 that is collecting an order every 6 months.

@Northern_Brewer Offer still stands if I can shout you a vial of yeast

 

[couchsending]

Where did you see this about all vault strains going into production? Been really wanting to try wlp030 and 072 forever.

 

[ba-brewer]

internet

I got an email yesterday

 

[couchsending]

Just didn’t see anything in their website... at least the mobile version.

 

[kmarkstevens]

https://www.whitelabs.com/yeast-vau...244964713&mc_cid=4485d2e0c7&mc_eid=92ebff3dd0

 

[kmarkstevens]

The email:
Our strains are breaking out of the Vault
We're releasing all of our Vault Strains, making it easier for you to get your hands on our specialty, creative, and unique strains that typically require 150 pre-orders to get out...until now!

All Vault Strains will go into production July 1st unless a strain hits 150 orders... then it will be pushed into production right away. That means you're not going to want to wait to order your favorites!

 

[kmarkstevens]

Here's the email highlights:
Our strains are breaking out of the Vault
We're releasing all of our Vault Strains, making it easier for you to get your hands on our specialty, creative, and unique strains that typically require 150 pre-orders to get out...until now!

All Vault Strains will go into production July 1st unless a strain hits 150 orders... then it will be pushed into production right away. That means you're not going to want to wait to order your favorites!