Infected? Or just WY1318 London Ale III doing its thing?

[luckybeagle]

I recently switched over to stainless fermenters after having periodic infections in my old Fermzillas. Today, just after kegging my oatmeal stout, I went to clean my fermenter and I saw this white crust on the walls of the fermenter. It was VERY difficult to remove. And it accumulated in kind of a weird way, imo.

I peeked in on the beer before crashing it and noticed a persistent head of krausen. I know this strain (London Ale III) is a top cropper, and I know I hit FG, so I dropped it to 40F yesterday in preparation for today's kegging. I'm wondering if this crust is just dried and hardened krausen, or something more.

I did not notice any sitting on the surface of the beer, but I suppose the crashing could've dragged any of that down with it.

Does this look infected? My mind might be playing tricks on me and I think I taste something wild/out of place/farmhouse-y in it, but I really am not sure. What does this look like?

Equipment wise, I brew on a 3 vessel system using a herms coil, I chill with a plate chiller that I ALWAYS pump boiling wort through for 15 minutes prior to flameout, and I recirculate back into the kettle via a whirlpool/chilling technique until I reach pitching temperature. I am getting so incredibly frustrated with these spoiled batches of beer as I've dumped well over 50 gallons over the past year, yet I can't figure out where in my process I'm picking up an infection especially now after getting rid of the fermzillas. Does this look like an infection?

 

[IslandLizard]

Sad to say, but those white chalky, ripply remnants along the krausen line and the specs also deposited below (during racking) do remind me of a pellicle. That would mean some other microorganism may have cohabitated in there. Not all will spoil the beer (sufficiently), leave an off-flavor/aroma, or turn it sour, but many could.

So yes, if that's indeed a pellicle, you've got some infection going on, somewhere.

Aside from a regular cleaning regimen, have you recently taken apart and cleaned your kettle valves, and other areas, parts, and tight spaces the cool side touches? Anywhere bugs can hide?
Such as transfer hoses/tubing, valves, couplers, pumps, etc.?

I also recirc boiling wort through the plate chiller for 15-30 minutes to "sterilize" before starting the chilling cycle.

In addition, every few (5-10) uses, or when I think it's needed, I thoroughly sterilize my plate chiller by baking it in the oven for a few hours a at 400-450F. I may put a few loaves of bread in there with it.
Before putting it into the oven, shake it dry (upside down) as much as possible. Any leftover water will have to evaporate before the chiller itself can reach oven temps.

 

[luckybeagle]

Thanks for the quick response!

For my brewing regimen, just to cover as many variables as I can think of, I boil with the lid on and use a steam condenser. The lid stays on from hot break through chilling and transfer, except for when adding hops/whirlfloc/yeast nutrient/adjuncts/etc.

I recirculate the boiling wort through the plate chiller for the final 15 minutes with the cold water supply off. Once I hit flameout, I flip on the cold water supply and keep everything hooked up to whirlpool/chill directly in the kettle simultaneously. Once I hit pitching temps, I disconnect the hose that ran from the plate chiller to the kettle with the cooled wort and bring it over to my fermenter and pump the wort in.

Since boiling wort has traveled through the pumps, plate chiller and lines, I thought this would be sufficient to kill any bugs/wild yeast/bacteria that might otherwise be hiding in these places. Is that just wishful thinking though?

Aside from that, my cleaning regimen has just involved scrubbing the kettles with Oxyclean free and pumping that solution through the system as well. I baked my plate chiller about 10 batches ago for the first time. I have not removed any valves or fittings on the hot side in years since (maybe illogically) I thought the heat would take care of any issues.

Do I need to up my sanitation regimen?

 

[IslandLizard]

I have not removed any valves or fittings on the hot side in years since (maybe illogically) I thought the heat would take care of any issues.

Strange enough, apparently there's not enough heat to kill all bugs.
One of my brew friends found black Pediococcus slime inside the kettle's exit valve, hiding in the ball chamber. Thoroughly cleaning that cured the persistent infections that had suddenly started to appear.

So I'd start with the valves, and other areas with tight spaces.

That said, I've never removed the camlocks screwed on my equipment, including those on the plate chiller. Those threaded fittings seem to clean well enough in place. I think it's the (very) tight spaces where water and detergent just can't go to flush them out.

 

[luckybeagle]

Strange enough, apparently there's not enough heat to kill all bugs.
One of my brew friends found black Pediococcus slime inside the kettle's exit valve, hiding in the ball chamber. Thoroughly cleaning that cured the persistent infections that had suddenly started to appear.

So I'd start with the valves, and other areas with tight spaces.

That said, I've never removed the camlocks screwed on my equipment, including those on the plate chiller. Those threaded fittings seem to clean well enough in place. I think it's the (very) tight spaces where water and detergent just can't go to flush them out.

Ahhh I will definitely do that! I have two ball valves on my BK (one as the exit, the other for whirlpooling/return. I'll also bake my plate chiller. I use (ball lock style) quick disconnects with teflon tape. It sounds like teflon can tolerate 450F no problem, so I guess I'll leave them on as well.

I can't imagine anything back from the BK being the infection source, My HERMS coil gets cleaned well after every brew, and anything that comes out of the MLT obviously gets boiled for 1 hour or more.

What do you think about my tubing, though? It's discolored but always has boiling wort pumped through it, and also receives the oxyclean flush treatment. No ridges or nooks for things to hide, really. I'd rather not replace the 36 ft of silicone tubing I use throughout the brewery as it's flippin' expensive.

 

[IslandLizard]

Ahhh I will definitely do that! I have two ball valves on my BK (one as the exit, the other for whirlpooling/return.

Same setup here, I would definitely start there.

I'll also bake my plate chiller. I use (ball lock style) quick disconnects with teflon tape. It sounds like teflon can tolerate 450F no problem, so I guess I'll leave them on as well.

Mine have teflon on the threads too, seems to survive 450F in the oven without any issues.
You've got the male halves of your ball lock QDs mounted onto the chiller, right? And there are no plastic parts in them?

I can't imagine anything back from the BK being the infection source, My HERMS coil gets cleaned well after every brew, and anything that comes out of the MLT obviously gets boiled for 1 hour or more.

Yeah, that side of the brewery is irrelevant, it should never touch chilled wort.

What do you think about my tubing, though? It's discolored but always has boiling wort pumped through it

I use the same tubing, it discolors over time, but that's never been an issue. Although I did replace them after 5 years of use or so, for good measure. They were very dark brown, almost opaque.

I'd rather not replace the 36 ft of silicone tubing I use throughout the brewery as it's flippin' expensive.

No, you don't want to or need to.
However, that's a lot of tubing, yowsers! I only use 7-8 ft., everything is placed rather close.
I wish there was an easy way to make them oxygen impermeable, or even mostly.

Re: the possible/lingering infection on this latest batch. Have you tasted anything yet?

 

[sibelman]

@luckybeagle, I noticed that you did not mention how you sanitize your fermenter.

 

[luckybeagle]

@luckybeagle, I noticed that you did not mention how you sanitize your fermenter.

Hey, I use Oxyclean free with the hottest water I can get from my tap for a good scrub, then rinse, then fill with about a gallon of starsan solution, shake up with the fermenter lid on, then drain the sanitizer out of the ball valve.

Today I have spent some time sanitizing my equipment. This involved about 1/2 gallon of water in my fermenter + 2 tsp of potassium metabisulfite + 1 tsp of Citric acid. Shook it up and clamped the lid down but with the airlock affixed to let gases escape. I was told this would kill wild yeast, and I haven't done this before.

I also removed all of the fittings from my BK, soaked them in Oxyclean free before scrubbing and boiling them, baked my plate chiller as recommended above (450F for 2+ hours), and am now pumping Oxyclean free through my entire system at 170F for 4 hours. After the oxyclean pumps through everything, I'll rinse with water, then run boiling water through it all again.

What do you all think? Have I sufficiently nuked whatever's in there?

Re: the possible/lingering infection on this latest batch. Have you tasted anything yet?

Yep, its got that subtle yet intensifying lactic/sour/weird funk in the background. I am going to keep it kegged for a few days to see what direction it goes, but it doesn't taste right to me. Day 16 from brew day.

PS, I learned a valuable lesson: don't go three years without removing your BK fittings for a good scrubbing! My clean-in-place oxyclean soak and circulate method clearly was no match for this crust.

 

[IslandLizard]

Yowsers, you had quite a bit of built-up gunk in there!

FYI, those 2-part valves do come apart too. There's a chamber inside with 2 plastic "cheeks" within which the ball turns. Stuff can hide behind that.
You may need a bench vise to hold the one end, with a big wrench (or a socket wrench) on the other. A little hammer action on the wrench can help separating the valve the first time.

Also good practice to let (assembled) valves dry with the handle at a 45° position. That way air can get inside.

While you're at it, take a good look at the ends of your hoses, where the barbs go inside. Gunk can build up in there too, between the barb and the hose.

 

[wootz001]

Good idea to check and swap out any gaskets in your fermenter as well. The bugs love to hitch a ride on them.

 

[luckybeagle]

Good idea to check and swap out any gaskets in your fermenter as well. The bugs love to hitch a ride on them.

Definitely will do. These are both new fermenters, but with the suspected infection in the Oatmeal Stout, I'll swap them out. Cheap insurance policy!

@IslandLizard I'll take a look at my hoses today, too. The reason I have so much length is that my brew setup uses 6 in total (sounds like yours might, too?)

3x for the HLT (one from HLT to pump 1 inlet, one to pump 1 outlet to the top of the MLT to keep water moving through it during the HERMS recirculation, and the third coming from the HERMS outlet to the MLT)
2x for the MLT (one from the MLT to pump 2, the other from pump 2 to the HLT herms inlet

During chilling/whirlpool the hose setup is as follows

1. BK to pump 1 inlet
2. Pump 1 outlet to pump 2 inlet (I use both to move the wort with more gusto)
3. Pump 2 outlet to plate chiller inlet
4. Plate chiller outlet to BK elbowed return (whirlpool)
5. Water supply to plate chiller water inlet
6. Hot water out from plate chiller outlet to sink drain

Photo taken mid glycol chiller DIY (box beneath fermenters before I plumbed everything)

I guess there's no real need to share a pic, but it might explain the hose usages--and I also love how it's coming along! I'll be super happy to brew on it again once this infection is confirmed to be licked!

 

[sibelman]

Very lovely and tidy garage brewery! Best of luck with the recurring infection struggle, @luckybeagle.

Your tale motivates me to disassemble threaded BK, chiller and pump fittings more often. And then there's hoses!

Like you, I have generally gone several years between this maintenance. I've been luckier regarding (known) infection, but that's a slender excuse for complacency.