Need a substitute for London Ale III aka Boddinton's yeast

[jfolks]

I’ve used it 3 times, it’s nothing like 1056. I was under the same impression as you and it couldn’t be any different. It’s a crazy top cropper and produces some cool red fruit like notes at higher temps.

Interesting. I know it’s marketed for Bruts. I did a fresh hop brut that turned out incredible. Haven’t done a NEIPA with it, but Corporate is my new go to for west coast style ipa

 

[kmarkstevens]

I'll be watching our suppliers here in the UK as well in the hope that it does show up. Any idea how long a vault strain remains in production?

My understanding is the White Labs does one single production run when the vault strain is released. Just my guesstimate that translates into something more than 250 orders (Maybe 300). The reason I say this is because about a year ago I went by the White Labs tasting room but only had about 15 minutes. So went thru a flight very quickly and asked the bar keep if they sold yeast in the tasting room. The Tasting room had a small shop with t shirts, glasses, etc but no yeast. He said yes and that they usually had pretty much everything. I asked for the WL85 English Ale blend, which I've checked at about 5 HBS and no one had even heard of it much less had it in stock. Two minutes later the bartender came back with a vial. I was far too rushed and wasn't sure if I would have problems with airport security (no officer, that's not anthrax it's beer yeast), so I only got the one strain. BTW, no issue taking it thru airport security.

I also listened to 's Jamil's Can You Brew It Black Sheep Riggwelter, and after failing on the first attempt, they called up White Labs who dug around and found a vial of the Yorkshire Squares.

 

[kmarkstevens]

Opps, I stand corrected. I re-listened to the Black Sheep Riggwelter podcast, and they use the Wyeast West Yorkshire yeast (also a seasonal that Wyeast keeps extra in stock), which I believe is the Samuel Smith strain.

 

[kmarkstevens]

Ha, got my Yorkshire Squares yeast in the mail today. just in time to brew this weekend and give me time to think about how best to do a second batch over Thanksgiving.

 

[ba-brewer]

Ha, got my Yorkshire Squares yeast in the mail today. just in time to brew this weekend and give me time to think about how best to do a second batch over Thanksgiving.

Is that the whitelabs wlp037 yeast from the vault. I have a beer fermenting with that one now and would like to hear how other have been doing with that yeast.

 

[ong]

Ha, got my Yorkshire Squares yeast in the mail today. just in time to brew this weekend and give me time to think about how best to do a second batch over Thanksgiving.

Same here. Thinking about just a simple 100% Golden Promise bitter with Goldings and Bramling Cross.

 

[ba-brewer]

Ha, got my Yorkshire Squares yeast in the mail today. just in time to brew this weekend and give me time to think about how best to do a second batch over Thanksgiving.

Same here. Thinking about just a simple 100% Golden Promise bitter with Goldings and Bramling Cross.

Did either of you brew with this yeast yet, if so how is it coming along?

 

[ong]

Did either of you brew with this yeast yet, if so how is it coming along?

Not yet, but I just freed up a fermenter! Probably will do a bitter this weekend.

 

[kmarkstevens]

ba-da-boom, ba-ba-brewer: Yes, WL37. Pitched my yeast yesterday. What are you brewing and how is it coming along?

Did my usual. Made a starter with ~1/2 of the WL37, and re-sealed the tube for a future starter. Also making extra starter right now so will have 3-4 first gen in canning jars to play with.

Did my second usual, which is a 6 gallon batch and split between 3 yeasties to see what I like. This time I made the Shut Up Barclay 1939 Boddington's Nut Brown Ale split between WL37, Wyeast West Yorkshire, and Nottingham (this forum yeast guru's recommended for the recipe and previously turned out really nicely). All three have a krausen in the garage at 60 F and I swirled them all today.

 

[ong]

I just got set up to autoclave a glycerin/water solution, so I’ve been freezing 3 tubes from each new package of yeast to raise up later. I’ll do several tubes with this guy, so I can come back to it if I like the bitter.

I’ve also been meaning to do a historical London brown (BCJP 27D). I know this probably isn’t the most historically accurate yeast for the style, but I’m tempted to try it out anyway. Although maybe it’s too attenuative? I’ll see how dry the bitter finishes.

 

[ba-brewer]

I have a simple Golden Promise and Target smash, mashed lower should come out in the best bitters ABV. Been going 10days and finally starting to slow a bit but there is still yeast in suspension even without rousing. My starter was quite chunk and dropped fast when I took it off the stirplate so I am surprise it is still going good at 10days.

My starter had a phenolic aroma which I figure came from the temp being ~70F but I also got some phenols from the fermentor at 62F. It was quite strong for the first two days but then it turned to more of a fruit punch aroma. Did you get any clove like aroma from your starter or fermentor?

 

[kmarkstevens]

ba-brewer. No clove aroma. Just very yeasty from the stir plate with maybe a little tropical overtone, and less so from the fermenter. The fermenter is in the garage at ~60F and stir plate ~70F.

The stir plate looks like a snow globe on steroids. But that's pretty typical for the highly flocculant English yeasts like 02 or Nottingham. And the clumps settle out about 10 seconds after turning off the stir plate, which also seems typical.

ong - I tried the autoclave glycerin thing, but with my freezer defrost cycle it was a miserable failure. I found that just a canning jar in the fridge keeps yeast viable (especially if you make a new starter) for a year easily. So I have gone that route.

 

[ba-brewer]

Thanks @kmarkstevens

 

[Northern_Brewer]

WLP037 and WLP038 are interesting as they're the only homebrew yeast known for certain to be POF+ British saison types - WPL026 Premium Bitter (124 to go) is a POF- member of the same family. But they're all Vault strains which haven't been released since their DNA data was properly unblinded. However, I believe Brewlab have a derivative of WLP037.

1469 is couldawouldashouldamaybe another POF+ member of the family, which would make sense, and would be a lot more convenient to use as it's a core strain for Wyeast. If 1469 is what I think it is, then it would be more closely related to 038 than 037.

For those that haven't seen, 1469 is another surprise in the latest genome sequencing results - it's in the main group of POF- UK brewery yeasts, in fact it looks like a Wyeast version of WLP022 Essex. So that's unexpected - it looks like something about the internet's version of what came from where is broken. Still - a nice yeast, but it means that the only homebrew sources of these kinds of yeasts are either obscure Vault strains or Brewlab (or if you can find one of Wiper & True's beers that use it, they do a blanche and a saison with it). If you're look at Brewlab's standard list of strains, actually quite a lot of them have some kind of phenolic character.

But yes, that clove thing is exactly what you'd expect from a POF+ yeast, which is what WLP037 is meant to be.

 

[ong]

Just kegged my WLP037 best bitter. I’m not convinced I love this yeast — a little more saison-y funk than I was hoping for. It will need some time to drop clear and carb up, so maybe that phenol taste will retreat a little. The hop schedule is nice, though, very fruity and interesting (equal parts Bramling Cross and EKG).

 

[ba-brewer]

Just kegged my WLP037 best bitter. I’m not convinced I love this yeast — a little more saison-y funk than I was hoping for. It will need some time to drop clear and carb up, so maybe that phenol taste will retreat a little. The hop schedule is nice, though, very fruity and interesting (equal parts Bramling Cross and EKG).

Sorry to hear you also got phenolic flavors but also glad it is just not me.

Mine has been chilling for almost two weeks which is about the normal time curiosity gets the better of me and I take a taste but I have zero interest. Maybe in another week I will give it a try, who knows maybe I will pleasantly surprised.

Someone did post recently that they got it to ferment at close to lager temps with no phenols, so I still have some hope.

 

[ong]

Someone did post recently that they got it to ferment at close to lager temps with no phenols, so I still have some hope.

I fermented at 63°, and brought it up to 70° for a couple days after it was close to projected FG. I just took another pour, and it’s drinkable, but still not my favorite. We’ll see how it does.

 

[kmarkstevens]

I'm still on a business trip to China but will bring up to 70 when I get home Friday and then bottle. Looking forward to seeing how the split batch comparison between Yorkshire Squares, West Yorkshire and Nottingham plays out.

Hoping for finding a diamond, but seems like some of these vault strains are not available full time for a reason.

 

[ong]

Tried it again — this is basically a saison. I’m bringing it to my club meeting tomorrow — will be interesting to hear what others think.

 

[ba-brewer]

Tried it again — this is basically a saison. I’m bringing it to my club meeting tomorrow — will be interesting to hear what others think.

There is some similarity to 3711 for sure, but cleaner I don't think I get any funky flavors or aroma. Almost 3 weeks in the keg without fining and it is very clear.

 

[kmarkstevens]

I just got home. Realized I bottled before my trip without bringing it up to 70F diacetyl rest. My ordinary bitter as been bottle conditioning for 2 weeks at 60F ambient in my garage. It's developed a clove/spice taste for sure. Not offensive but a bit distracting and not really a positive IMHO. Did not use any finings and it hasn't cleared.

I'll let it age a few more weeks, and will probably make a few more small batches to see how things develop.

 

[ong]

I brought my 1037 best bitter to my brew club without really providing much information, and it was described as a “Belgian table beer” and “bitter brewed in a farmhouse.”

Kmarkstevens, I doubt a D-rest would have lessened the phenolic flavor. I think that’s just how this yeast expresses. Mine is also extremely cloudy still, although it’s only been chilled for a week or so.

 

[kmarkstevens]

I'm going to do a split batch with Yorkie Squares, Belle Saison and T-58 to compare and frankly whether I want to keep any of them.

I've got 5 gallons of a Yorkie square ordinary bitter ageing in the carboy waiting for my keg to empty..

Regardless, I quite like the White Labs vault yeast. For just under $10 American, you get a big vial of yeast delivered to your front door. I got the 611 Nordic Strain. 85 English Ale blend actually got when I visited White Labs over a year ago and had just enough time to slam a flight and purchase a vial.

I love the 85 English Ale blend. It is clean, pretty low attenuation (while avoiding the overly sweet residue taste of 02), flocculent and works really well for 1030 - 1040 session ales. I've got a few others on order. I kinda like that you have to wait for when enough people pony up, it gets fermented and shipped out, and then eagerly find it in the mailbox kinda like a Christmas present from a distant Uncle that you can't wait to rip open and pitch for the helluva it. The journey as important as the result, and if I come out with 10% keepers I'll be happy. YMMV

 

[ong]

Yes, I think the Vault program is really cool, even if I’m not thrilled about the 1037 yeast! It’s like GoFundMe for yeasts.

 

[ba-brewer]

I just got home. Realized I bottled before my trip without bringing it up to 70F diacetyl rest. My ordinary bitter as been bottle conditioning for 2 weeks at 60F ambient in my garage. It's developed a clove/spice taste for sure. Not offensive but a bit distracting and not really a positive IMHO. Did not use any finings and it hasn't cleared.

I'll let it age a few more weeks, and will probably make a few more small batches to see how things develop.

Well you sort of dashed my hopes that fermenting at near lager temp might tame the phenols of this yeast, may my still try it cool to see how it turns it.

 

[kmarkstevens]

So, I did a split yeast test with Yorkshire Square (WLP037), West Yorkshire (Wyeast 1469) and Danstar Nottingham based on this Boddington's Nut Brown Ale from 1930 (nice recipe) http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2016/05/lets-brew-wednesday-1939-boddington-mild.html
6 gallons split into brewpig containers:
1/2# Crystal 60L
14oz flaked corn
4oz American Wheat
3.2oz 6 row
2oz black treacle
40 IBU
Mashed 150 x90 minutes
OG: 1036
FG Yorkie Sq: 1006
FG W Yorkie: 1012
FG Notty: 1009

The Yorkshire Sq had sulfur odor 1 week into the ferment and then was gone by the two week mark. Bottled after 14 days with no D rest. I swirled the brewpig about twice a day (and the other two) for a week or so, careful

Yorkshire Square: most spicy/clove taste out of the three. Also most cloudy with better head retention. flash photo makes it look yellow, but in real life it is a bit lighter than the notty but more yeasty/cloudy. Too spicy for my palette. To me, it's distracting from the beer

West Yorkshire: has spice but maybe 50% of the Yorkie Sq yeast. Not so strong or noticeable. Some may prefer this as more complex than the Notty. Me, I prefer the cleaner notty. Darkest of the three

Nottingham: Cleanest tasting, lightest color of the three and clearest. this is still one of my go to yeasts and acts as a control in the test. (I am doing lower octane beers so this attenuates higher than I would prefer just from an ABV point of view).

I'm kegging a different Yorkie Square recipe tonight. Again, to my palate, the spicy notes are at the distracting level but maybe e better after it carbonates. Who's to say what the taste would be like with a real Yorkshire traditional treatment with the wort sprayed on the top multiple times per brew day. In my garage, with my technique, most likely my banked Yorkie Squares won't be utilized in the future.

 

[ong]

Yeah, I won’t be using the Yorkshire Square again — and maybe dumping the rest of the keg once I’ve got something more enjoyable ready to transfer.

 

[kmarkstevens]

@ong, did you try kegging or bottle conditioning? I made a 4% best bitter (OG 1043, FG 1013) fermented under 60F ambient in the garage, kegged it, and the spicy clove has receded considerably compared with my bottle ferment test. To my palette, its a bit spicy, just a hint of clove, and thankfully much more in the background. Adds complexity not found in S-04, WLP02, but I'm not sure this is an improvement per say. I don't think most tasters would peg this as a "saison". Not my favorite taste but I just had 2 pints, so it's not like I have to force it down.

Not sure if increasing the OG to 1043 vs the bottle conditioned ordinary bitter that was OG 1036 makes a difference?

Will keep testing the bottled ordinary over time to see how it changes. I don't think I'm ready to try "master" this yeast, although the kegged version is far more encouraging than the bottled I did.

 

[ong]

@ong, did you try kegging or bottle conditioning? I made a 4% best bitter (OG 1043, FG 1013) fermented under 60F ambient in the garage, kegged it, and the spicy clove has receded considerably compared with my bottle ferment test. To my palette, its a bit spicy, just a hint of clove, and thankfully much more in the background. Adds complexity not found in S-04, WLP02, but I'm not sure this is an improvement per say. I don't think most tasters would peg this as a "saison". Not my favorite taste but I just had 2 pints, so it's not like I have to force it down.

I kegged it. My bitter sounds similar to yours, although I fermented around 64°. It’s still a massive phenol bomb. I did a substantial dry hop (Bramling and EKG) but all I can taste is cloves.

 

[kmarkstevens]

@ong This is trey weird. I am drinking a bottle conditioned Yorkshire Square brewed on 17 Nov (photos above), and the clove/spice has pretty much dropped out. It has NOT cleared and is cloudy as all get out. It's no longer distracting nor offensive, but I'm not sure I like it. Don't have a side by side but probably could get something similar with Windsor.

I was ready to throw in the towel on this yeast as too complex for me, but maybe I should keep trying with some small batches to see what I might coax out of this...

 

[shoreman]

Conan is the best English yeast I've used in my almost 20 years of homebrewing - especially this version https://omegayeast.com/yeast/ales/dipa-ale - been using it for the past 2 years consistently. Just make sure its fermented at about 66-68 and you are golden.

It drops clear quickly if you want it to, but will produce great NEIPA if you want to do the bio thing.

 

[ong]

@ong This is trey weird. I am drinking a bottle conditioned Yorkshire Square brewed on 17 Nov (photos above), and the clove/spice has pretty much dropped out. It has NOT cleared and is cloudy as all get out. It's no longer distracting nor offensive, but I'm not sure I like it. Don't have a side by side but probably could get something similar with Windsor.

I was ready to throw in the towel on this yeast as too complex for me, but maybe I should keep trying with some small batches to see what I might coax out of this...

Interesting. I don’t find anything redeeming about the yeast, so I think I’m done experimenting with it. Maybe I’ll find someone to pass my stocks on to.

 

[kmarkstevens]

I'm making a last try. I have about 10 English yeasties to do side by side comparisons of (so will make 3-4 split batches using the same recipe over the next month or so). First two are WLP 23 Burton and WLP37 Yorkie Squares. This time, since Yorkie Squares like to be agitated, I have decided to you a paint stirrer for about two minutes every morning and evening for 3-4 days. See how that turns out before giving up on the yeast.

 

[ong]

I'm making a last try. I have about 10 English yeasties to do side by side comparisons of (so will make 3-4 split batches using the same recipe over the next month or so). First two are WLP 23 Burton and WLP37 Yorkie Squares. This time, since Yorkie Squares like to be agitated, I have decided to you a paint stirrer for about two minutes every morning and evening for 3-4 days. See how that turns out before giving up on the yeast.

Never give up on CloveBomb2019!

 

[kmarkstevens]

Well, that was a bust. Fermented at 64F ambient. Hit it with a wine de-gasser/paint stirrer for 30 seconds every morning and evening to rouse the yeast. Might as well be drinking clove extract. POF is definitely there. Now, maybe it will age, drop out and leave an amazing result, and maybe a monkey will grow wings and fly out of my butt. I'll bottle and age it, but this yeast is beyond my modest skills.

BTW, I'm doing split batches with about a dozen different English yeasts with more or less the same recipe and more or less the same conditions, but it's going to take a few months and a few batches to get there. My intention is to get to a short-list of the yeasts I like and chalk the rest up to an interesting experience. 99% sure that Yorkshire squares will join London III, Windsor and CBC in the "been there, done that" list. Will be interesting, at least to me, to see if WLP85 and Nottingham make the keeper list.

What the hey, my list is:
Pub / WLP002 (supposedly the same strain, but in previous split batches I much prefer Pub)
WLP85
Nottingham
Windsor
W Yorkie WY1469
Yorkie Squares WLP37
Burton Ale Yeast WLP23
British Ale II Adnan's WY1332
S-04
Irish WLP04
London III
CBC
Anything else that might come out of the WLP vault before I'm done.

 

[ong]

Well, that was a bust. Fermented at 64F ambient. Hit it with a wine de-gasser/paint stirrer for 30 seconds every morning and evening to rouse the yeast. Might as well be drinking clove extract. POF is definitely there. Now, maybe it will age, drop out and leave an amazing result, and maybe a monkey will grow wings and fly out of my butt. I'll bottle and age it, but this yeast is beyond my modest skills.

BTW, I'm doing split batches with about a dozen different English yeasts with more or less the same recipe and more or less the same conditions, but it's going to take a few months and a few batches to get there. My intention is to get to a short-list of the yeasts I like and chalk the rest up to an interesting experience. 99% sure that Yorkshire squares will join London III, Windsor and CBC in the "been there, done that" list. Will be interesting, at least to me, to see if WLP85 and Nottingham make the keeper list.

What the hey, my list is:
Pub / WLP002 (supposedly the same strain, but in previous split batches I much prefer Pub)
WLP85
Nottingham
Windsor
W Yorkie WY1469
Yorkie Squares WLP37
Burton Ale Yeast WLP23
British Ale II Adnan's WY1332
S-04
Irish WLP04
London III
CBC
Anything else that might come out of the WLP vault before I'm done.

That will be interesting to hear about! I’ve thought about doing something similar but never gotten motivated.

The experiment I am thinking about trying this month is splitting a 3 gallon batch of wort, and doing a different single 60 minute hop addition to each, to see if bittering hops really make a perceptible difference.

 

[ba-brewer]

Well, that was a bust. Fermented at 64F ambient. Hit it with a wine de-gasser/paint stirrer for 30 seconds every morning and evening to rouse the yeast. Might as well be drinking clove extract. POF is definitely there. Now, maybe it will age, drop out and leave an amazing result, and maybe a monkey will grow wings and fly out of my butt. I'll bottle and age it, but this yeast is beyond my modest skills.

BTW, I'm doing split batches with about a dozen different English yeasts with more or less the same recipe and more or less the same conditions, but it's going to take a few months and a few batches to get there. My intention is to get to a short-list of the yeasts I like and chalk the rest up to an interesting experience. 99% sure that Yorkshire squares will join London III, Windsor and CBC in the "been there, done that" list. Will be interesting, at least to me, to see if WLP85 and Nottingham make the keeper list.

What the hey, my list is:
Pub / WLP002 (supposedly the same strain, but in previous split batches I much prefer Pub)
WLP85
Nottingham
Windsor
W Yorkie WY1469
Yorkie Squares WLP37
Burton Ale Yeast WLP23
British Ale II Adnan's WY1332
S-04
Irish WLP04
London III
CBC
Anything else that might come out of the WLP vault before I'm done.

I really hope you get that monkey thing to work. Summer is not too far off, a semi dry saison might taste pretty good then.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Anything else that might come out of the WLP vault before I'm done.

There's not much interesting planned for this year, although you might still find WLP006 Bedford kicking around in the retail chain, which was a Q4 release that has a good reputation - I've got some fermenting as we speak. But most of the seasonal releases they're planning on the ale front are pretty clean - WLP019 California IV, WLP072 French, WLP003 German II (close to 1007?), WLP039 East Midlands (close to Notty) and WLP515 Antwerp (Belgium's "Chico"). Hopefully Wyeast will manage something more British.

You might want to give WLP041 a go though, I've only used it once and while not the flashiest yeast it had that "one-more-pint" drinkability to it that's rather appealing.

WLP026 is the one I really want to come out of the Vault, as a POF- saison type.

 

[kmarkstevens]

@Northern_Brewer WLP026 currently needs 117 more orders until it ships. Not sure if you're aware of the vault program or can get the vault strains shipped overseas? These can be included in the seasonal releases but has a separate release program. As soon as they get enough orders, they culture up a run and ship it out. I've noticed the countdown speeds up as they get close to 150 orders. And I've also noticed that when it goes into production, you can also place an order (you don't have to be in the 150 order lot). I've gotten a few, have several on order, and both Marañón Canyon Wild Cacao and the Scottish Cider blend are both coming my way soon to test in a cyser. So far, my preferred cyser yeast remains notty.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Oh, I'm well aware of how the Vault works, which is why it's so frustrating that it only works with US credit cards - I'm sure some of the rarer British strains would get a few more orders if that was changed.

The other interesting one would be WLP037 Manchester which is another POF+ saison type, but at current progress it will hit the 150 some time in the late 2020s...