Need a substitute for London Ale III aka Boddinton's yeast

[kmarkstevens]

Yeast meisters - need help

I am going for this Shut Up About 1939 Boddington Mild recreation. The challenge I have is I dislike the Wyeast 1318 London ale III (aka Boddington yeast) taste in my beers. I've made 3-4 batches and split batches with London III, and I simply don't like it. I don't have temperature control in my garage but probably most of the batches were done between 50-70 degree fermentation temperature.

I'd like recommendations for something similar to London III?

Anyone have experience with the Imperial A38 Juice? My cheat chart says it is the same strain as Wyeast 1318. FWIW, My split batch 02 vs Pub result was I preferred Pub. Maybe the same is true for London III vs Juice?

Anyhoo, would you I have the following in my yeast bank but willing to try something else:
Whitelabs 02, 85
Windsor and Nottingham
1469 West Yorkie
S-04

Thanks in advance...

 

[dmtaylor]

Notty will work very well for you, and cheap and easy, no starter required or any fancy treatment. Sprinkle it in and done. I picked Notty because of its high attenuation which it shares with 1318, so FG and ABV will turn out as you intended. If you use those other yeasts, you'll probably need to make adjustments to hit targets.

 

[jfolks]

Notty is a good sub. juice is the same darn thing, so don’t expect different results

 

[kmarkstevens]

Thanks for the replies. Notty is probably my favorite go to yeast as it is neutral tasting and flocculates out. The only issue I have with Notty is I like to do English session beers in the 2-4% ABV range, and Notty has pretty high attenuation. Also thanks for pointing out the attenuation and flocculation between III and Notty is pretty close, so that's a good way of looking at the comparison.

I found that 02 and Pub were not quite the same. Pub finished less sweet that 02 to my palate. So, was thinking that's either my bias, or if there really is a difference then there may also be a difference between London III and Juice.

I've been splitting batches for "yeast offs" comparisons and dropping the yeasts that fall short in my tasting.

 

[ong]

I believe the new London Fog is a different strain than 1318, although I don’t have personal experience with it.

I just did a 3.8% best bitter with WY1469, West Yorkshire Ale, that is pretty good (not very bright, though). I really like WY1968 for bitters as well — it’s a bit tart, some nice esters, and floccs beautifully.

 

[ong]

I’m curious what you dislike about 1318, though — it’s one of my favorites for all kinds of styles.

 

[kmarkstevens]

I just did a 3.8% best bitter with WY1469, West Yorkshire Ale, that is pretty good (not very bright, though). I really like WY1968 for bitters as well — it’s a bit tart, some nice esters, and floccs beautifully.

I haven't tried the 1968 vs 02, but did try the 02 split batch vs Pub and preferred the Pub.

I also have the West yorkie in the collection. Good but need to retry the split batch as the yorkie portion was infected somehow.

I did a Notty vs London III vs 85 bake off. The London III in various batches has what I can only describe as kinda bland and dull. Very disappointing and has "ruined" my Boddington attempts. (I understand Boddington probably also uses a cask bottling yeast in the nitrocan product.) Need to check brew logs, but I've prolly done 4 London III milds/bitters and all were lackluster.

I like the White Labs 85 (which is a blend using 02 and I'm not sure what) I picked up when visiting their taproom in San Diego. It's a little sweeter (but avoids the level of 02) and more complex than the Notty.

 

[ong]

My understanding is that the 1318 is the Boddington’s cask yeast — dunno if that’s what they bottle with?

My perception of that yeast is that it’s very light/effervescent, without a ton of esters. But without any distracting off flavors... just a nice clean British yeast.

 

[hottpeper13]

If you're looking for a full flavor low alcohol beer I would use the Windsor, it's my go to for those beers. Notty is my go to for crisp and clean.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I am going for this Shut Up About 1939 Boddington Mild recreation. The challenge I have is I dislike the Wyeast 1318 London ale III (aka Boddington yeast)

Ah, the quest for the One True Boddies Yeast. It's kinda like the quest for Eldorado, only less achievable.

If you're serious about getting the right yeast, then there's only one realistic option for homebrewers and that's to drop an email to Brewlab saying what beer you're trying to clone, and asking them what they would recommend. In many cases they can't actually say "this is the yeast from X brewery", but they can say "We suggest this yeast if you're trying to clone a beer from X brewery". Subtle difference.

What do we know for certain?

Whitbread bought Boddies in 1989, so they would have had access to all Whitbread's resources, including their huge yeast bank, after that time.

The original Boddingtons brewery was in Manchester, 170 miles as the crow flies from London, or over 200 miles by road. So this idea that London Ale III is somehow "the" Boddies yeast just makes no sense at all. I've seen theories that maybe 1318 was a London yeast stored by the Boddies/Whitbread yeast bank but not actually used by them, or that they lost their original yeast and replaced it with a yeast from Courage (of London).

Ron Pattinson has blogged extensively on Boddies, which means we have a load of attenuations for the bitter, which had more or less the same recipe for a century - close to a pale malt/Goldings SMaSH, with maybe 7-10% sugar - so we can get an idea of what kind of yeast they were using :
1901 74.7%
1939 76.7%
1939 77.8%
1951 87.5%
1966 89.6%
1971 91.6%
1974 88.4%
1987 83.6%

We're not looking at your typical southern English sickly-sweet beer - this is classic Northern bitter, dry and hoppy. So forget Windsor and WLP002, they're way off-beam.

One can speculate on the reasons for the increase in attenuation. Some of it will undoubtedly be improving technology on the ingredient side, and there were minor tweaks to the recipe. In 1939 they were using 17-20% maize, which got killed off by WWII, in the 1970s sugar crept up to 13%, in 1987 they'd dropped adjuncts altogether.

The leap in attenuation in WWII is intriguing, and makes me wonder if they either deliberately or accidentally got some diastaticus in there which would allow them to make the same amount of beer from fewer ingredients during wartime.

Anecdotally, Boddies seems to have been notably bitter in the 1970s, but the quality dropped significantly in the recession of the early 1980s - probably sometime in late 1981. There are also rumours that they lost their yeast at some point, which might support the theory that they got yeast from Courage.

But those 90% attenuations look like a diastaticus yeast, which in British terms makes me think of the saison relatives normally found in Yorkshire squares. Indeed WLP038 Manchester is one such yeast, although I don't think we know what brewery it comes from and the official attenuation isn't that great.

Anyway, to cut a long story short, I'd use either Notty or 1469.

 

[kmarkstevens]

Appreciate all the replies. I pitched Notty today from a starter.

Northern Brewer - fascinating post. Thank you. Brewing Canon has London III as the Boddy yeast but you raise excellent points. What do you think of the White Labs 37 Yorkshire Squares yeast? BTW, It's in the White Labs vault program with only 21 orders until it ships (if they get 250 pre orders, then will do a limited production run and it's pretty cheap with special low shipping charges vs their standard mail order).

I recently discovered Can You Brew It podcasts with Jamil. Had a really fascinating one for Black Sheep Riggwelter, and just raved about the Yorkshire Square yeast. Can't wait to try it

 

[dmtaylor]

@Northern_Brewer is the MAN. Always enjoy your posts, sir. Cheers.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

What do you think of the White Labs 37 Yorkshire Squares yeast? BTW, It's in the White Labs vault program with only 21 orders until it ships (if they get 250 pre orders, then will do a limited production run and it's pretty cheap with special low shipping charges vs their standard mail order).

I recently discovered Can You Brew It podcasts with Jamil. Had a really fascinating one for Black Sheep Riggwelter, and just raved about the Yorkshire Square yeast. Can't wait to try it

I've been watching WLP037 for a while now - sadly you need a US credit card to preorder from the Vault, which I suspect dramatically underestimates the potential demand for some of the British strains, at least. It's only 150 preorders needed, sadly WLP038 Manchester is on 147....

WLP037 and WLP038 are interesting as they're the only homebrew yeast known for certain to be POF+ British saison types - WPL026 Premium Bitter (124 to go) is a POF- member of the same family. But they're all Vault strains which haven't been released since their DNA data was properly unblinded. However, I believe Brewlab have a derivative of WLP037.

1469 is couldawouldashouldamaybe another POF+ member of the family, which would make sense, and would be a lot more convenient to use as it's a core strain for Wyeast. If 1469 is what I think it is, then it would be more closely related to 038 than 037. More speculatively, Brewlab F40 and Mangrove Jack M15 Empire may, possibly, potentially, hypothetically be other members of the family - they're on my list to play with (and may be fun ones to try in a NEIPA).

Black Sheep got their yeast from Hardy & Hanson when they bought their squares from them; in turn Black Sheep also propagate it for Elgood's. When people ask Brewlab for a Black Sheep yeast they get sent vials labelled HH, I leave it to you what HH might stand for! If you're serious about cloning Riggwelter, then Brewlab HH would be the way to go.

I've seen reports that it's also a POF+ yeast, but rather different to WLP037/1469. It would make sense for these saison yeasts to be associated with a particular production system - if you think what happens in a square, it suggests these yeast need regular rousing and/or plenty of oxygen, at least to start with - you may not need the rousing if you give them pure O2 to start with, in fact rousing can increase diacetyl. Some people don't get on with 1469, and I suspect that's where they go wrong.

 

[kmarkstevens]

@Northern Brewer - yet another fascinating post. Thanks!

What does POF+ stand for?

Does it make sense to aerate the yeast once or twice a day for say 4 days as a mimic to Black Sheep? I typically use a wine degasser attachment to an electric drill and aerate for 2 minutes when I first pitch the yeast. OR do you have a better suggestion on how to "hack" a Yorkshire stone set up in a homebrew environment.

One more question please. When you reference "brewlab" is it these folks? https://www.brewlab.co.uk/

 

[dmtaylor]

I too am still learning. I know POF stands for Phenolic Off Flavor, and I *think* that means it makes the beer taste "Belgian" or otherwise "very characterful" due to phenols? And then on the other hand, often I get the impression that maybe it has more to do with high attenuation (thus the "saison" references)?!

I'd appreciate a better definition than that, or to be corrected if my thinking is off base. Thanks!

 

[ong]

POF+ basically means it will throw that hefe banana/clove phenol, I believe.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Yep, POF stands for Phenolic Off Flavour, which means that the yeast has a little packet of DNA that encodes enzymes involved in phenol biochemistry. Which means that in particular it can convert ferulic acid into 4-VG, which puts the clove into hefeweizen; much of hefe brewing is concerned with maximising the presence of that ferulic acid precursor. But those same enzymes can get to work on a variety of flavour compounds - and also different yeast strains have different amounts of enzyme activity, so the effects can be quite mild. For instance, T-58 is effectively a POF+ version of S-33/Windsor but is not particularly spicey. Or more likely, S-33/Windsor are POF- mutant versions of T-58.

It's nothing to do with attenuation per se, it's a different mechanism, but the saison yeast are known for their "Belgian-ness" which comes from being POF+, and independently they also have high attenuation.

@ong Banana is not a phenol, it's an ester. Completely different chemistry.

 

[ong]

@ong Banana is not a phenol, it's an ester. Completely different chemistry.

Huh — so I imagine that’s why the hefe yeasts throw more banana during warm ferments.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

All yeasts tend to throw more esters when they're warm - British yeasts are famous for it too. But they have a different genetic package so the mix of esters is somewhat different - and a wheat-rich grist tends to favour banana whatever yeast you use.

 

[kmarkstevens]

Quick update. Thanks for replies and recommendations. Kegging tomorrow. OG was 1033 and FG at 1006 (target was FG at 1007, so pretty good). A pint off the fermenter tastes pretty good already and will be even better in a few days!

@Northern Brewer If you don't mind, care to take a stab at how to deal with the oxygen requirements in a homebrew environment for a Yorkshire Square yeast/process? I'm guessing aerate the wort 1-2x per day for maybe 5 days as a homebrew hack? I pinged a guy at White Labs with this question but hasn't replied yet. They only need 15 more orders before shipping the Yorkshire Square yeast....

 

[cyberbackpacker]

I have some Yorkshire square that I banked from the "platinum" selection back in early 2015 and have had great success using it without rousing the yeast. What I have found works well is to dose with pure oxygen (out of a cylinder, not an aquarium "air" pump); I go with about 1lpm of pure oxygen for about 45 seconds for worts up to 1.055 or so. This seems to provide a great environment for the wlp037 to do it's thing.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Sorry, got waylaid. It's always tricky getting the balance right between replicating commercial practice and having a system that is practical at a homebrew level - the day job gets in the way, but set against that we have smaller volumes and there tends to be more oxygen getting in passively. And I don't like "fussing" too much over beer - it's not good for the finished and it's just more opportunity for infection.

There are some here who have built their own homebrew-level squares, but as a first approximation I'd give it a good stir once a day until you're within 8-10 points of FG. By a good stir, I mean more than just rousing the yeast off the bottom, but not thrashing it - scrambling eggs not making meringue if that makes sense. Or start with oxygen and then just rouse it daily.

Yep, that's the right Brewlab, they're the main source of original British brewery yeasts for homebrewers (assuming you don't want to pay silly prices from the NCYC). On their website they list a few of the common ones, but if you just drop them an email they can get you almost any of the main brewery yeasts - just so long as you phrase it in terms of "I'm brewing a clone of X, what do you recommend" rather than "I want X brewery's yeast". I know some USians here have bought from them and the shipping charges haven't been too bad, albeit they work out more than just buying from White Labs etc.

Don't rush the mild - it'll need a few weeks at least to come together.

 

[bierhaus15]

I have some Yorkshire square that I banked from the "platinum" selection back in early 2015 and have had great success using it without rousing the yeast. What I have found works well is to dose with pure oxygen (out of a cylinder, not an aquarium "air" pump); I go with about 1lpm of pure oxygen for about 45 seconds for worts up to 1.055 or so. This seems to provide a great environment for the wlp037 to do it's thing.

This is my experience as well. So long as the yeast has oxygen available during its aerobic growth phase, it should not need additional rousing or mixing during fermentation, even with true top croppers.

I'd give it a good stir once a day until you're within 8-10 points of FG. By a good stir, I mean more than just rousing the yeast off the bottom, but not thrashing it - scrambling eggs not making meringue if that makes sense. Or start with oxygen and then just rouse it daily.

Rousing yeast should only be done within the first 24 hours and rarely up to 48hrs. Even brewing textbooks from 100 years ago warned against rousing after this time, lest the yeast produce "unwanted flavours" aka excessive diacetyl and higher alcohols. The Yorkshire system works because it injects 02 into yeast during the tail end of the aerobic phase, producing some diacetyl and getting yeast counts up before it goes anerobic. Rousing throughout fermentation forces yeast back to aerobic growth, stalling fermentation and producing diacetyl, ect. While diacetyl and the mouthfeel it provides is a hallmark of square fermented beers, that diacetyl is produced during the initial growth phase, not after. A typical Yorkshire process is to start rousing around the 18hr mark, for 5-10 minutes every 4 hrs, until the 24-36 hr mark.

 

[kmarkstevens]

thanks for all the replies. I'm gonna have fun with the west yorkie when it ships I think.

I have enough yeast to play with at the moment but will look into brewlabs and probably pick out a couple of "I want something to replicate xxx."

@Northern Brewer - I took my eye off the pipeline so the keg just ran out, I've got almost no bottles left, and 20 liters of the Boddington Mild cold crashing right now. So, I'll keg the mild early just to have something to drink whilst I get the pipeline back to a healthy state. Based on the hydrometer sample, I will be re-doing the Boddington Mild and plan to properly age it.

 

[ong]

thanks for all the replies. I'm gonna have fun with the west yorkie when it ships I think.

I just signed up for some, as well! Have you read the stuff about it being close to a saison yeast?

 

[kmarkstevens]

@ong So you're the guy that brought it down from 15 to 14 orders until shipping! I read the white labs warning about it. Do you have a link to more info on it being sorta kinda a saison yeast?

BTW, we're both in the PNW as I'm in Bellevue. You've got Wyeast and Imperial Yeast in your backyard.

 

[kmarkstevens]

Again, appreciate the replies. The Boddington Mild historic recipe came out very nicely. It's carbonated at 15 psi in the keg (apologies as a septic I know this may be too high and too chilled but I like it, and I let it warm up by sipping slowly after pouring). Definitely will need to repeat and let age properly with either Notty or with the Yorkie Squares yeast once it ships.

BTW, there is an older 5 page thread on the Yorkie square yeast here that I am part way through: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/yorkshire-square-on-a-home-level.635302/page-3

 

[ong]

@ong So you're the guy that brought it down from 15 to 14 orders until shipping! I read the white labs warning about it. Do you have a link to more info on it being sorta kinda a saison yeast?

BTW, we're both in the PNW as I'm in Bellevue. You've got Wyeast and Imperial Yeast in your backyard.

Yup, I even worked a bit on the Wyeast web site!

I believe I read that an English brewery made a French saison with that yeast, but I don’t have it handy. I’ve read it can really attenuate like a beast.

 

[kmarkstevens]

@ong Whitelabs reached the 150 orders and will be shipping soon. I'll redo the 1939 Boddy mild and let it condition this time before kegging. The first attempt kettle to keg in 6 days turned out really well and a not really beer drinking neighbors were coming back for thirds, so I'm doing something right...again appreciate the replies

 

[ong]

Oh, nice! I usually overbuild starters and use a yeast for several to many beers; one thing I almost always have on tap is a best or ordinary bitter with 100% Golden Promise and a single hop, so I’ll probably start there.

My last batch (with all Bramling Cross and the WY1469 Yorkshire) finally dropped clear after about 2-3 weeks in the keg and is quite nice now... the black currant has shifted more to a slightly astringent black tea flavor. I think I’d prefer using this hop with some EKG, but I’m enjoying this SMaSH.

 

[Comfort_Zone]

I just use Conan, never been a fan of LA III

 

[EnglishAndy]

I've been watching WLP037 for a while now - sadly you need a US credit card to preorder from the Vault, which I suspect dramatically underestimates the potential demand for some of the British strains, at least. It's only 150 preorders needed, sadly WLP038 Manchester is on 147....

Your wish has been granted. WLP037 has reached the target and is shipping from the vault soon!

 

[kmarkstevens]

I haven't heard confirmation from White Labs yet. There is usually a lag between target hit and they actually send a confirmation email and ding your credit card. I'll ping the guy that does orders on Monday if I haven't heard anything.

Looking forward to this yeast big time and ready to start making some Boddy style brews.

 

[couchsending]

Imperial A30 corporate

 

[EnglishAndy]

I haven't heard confirmation from White Labs yet. There is usually a lag between target hit and they actually send a confirmation email and ding your credit card. I'll ping the guy that does orders on Monday if I haven't heard anything.

Looking forward to this yeast big time and ready to start making some Boddy style brews.

I'll be watching our suppliers here in the UK as well in the hope that it does show up. Any idea how long a vault strain remains in production?

 

[jfolks]

Imperial A30 corporate

Really? I thought that was more of a 1056-like strain?

 

[couchsending]

I’ve used it 3 times, it’s nothing like 1056. I was under the same impression as you and it couldn’t be any different. It’s a crazy top cropper and produces some cool red fruit like notes at higher temps.

 

[Tribe Fan]

Oh, nice! I usually overbuild starters and use a yeast for several to many beers; one thing I almost always have on tap is a best or ordinary bitter with 100% Golden Promise and a single hop, so I’ll probably start there.

My last batch (with all Bramling Cross and the WY1469 Yorkshire) finally dropped clear after about 2-3 weeks in the keg and is quite nice now... the black currant has shifted more to a slightly astringent black tea flavor. I think I’d prefer using this hop with some EKG, but I’m enjoying this SMaSH.

I have a 1469 with Golden Promise and 60L crystal, target bittering and first gold aroma in the fermenter now. It's been at 66F for 90 hours and I'm bumping it to 72F now to hopefully get rid of any diacetyl. It's been an open ferment with the lid loosely attached. Big thick cheesy krausen covering it.

How did you ferment your batch?

 

[ong]

I have a 1469 with Golden Promise and 60L crystal, target bittering and first gold aroma in the fermenter now. It's been at 66F for 90 hours and I'm bumping it to 72F now to hopefully get rid of any diacetyl. It's been an open ferment with the lid loosely attached. Big thick cheesy krausen covering it.

How did you ferment your batch?

I used similar temps, but I didn’t do an open fermentation (I’m not really set up for that, and I didn’t want to risk it).

FWIW my bitter eventually dropped clear and is very pleasant now. This yeast definitely takes its time clearing, but I would use it again (although I had to dump my banked sample because it got some lacto).

 

[kmarkstevens]

Received an email today that White Labs has released the yeast for the Yorkshire Squares. It will be mailed out in a few weeks. This is going to be fun to play with methinks.