Make IPA Clear Again

[applescrap]

Wish I had a ham hock, love pea soup!

 

[FruityHops]

Make writing cuneiform again!

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

Make writing cuneiform again!

With texting and emoji, we've pretty much returned to hieroglyphics.

 

[bwible]

I didn’t read through all 23 pages so far but this is an interesting topic. My question would be for those homebrewers who enter competitions. I gather all the IPAs are bunched into one category? I haven’t been in the competition loop for some time. So what winners are we seeing coming out of these combined categories? Are the hazy beers winning all the time?

I know from experience that it is much harder to win competitions with certain styles vs certain other styles. As a brewer of mostly English Ales, I have a bunch of first place ribbons but never won a best of show. In my experience, best of show has usually gone to the latest fad beer such as Kellerbier or some unusual creation.

So I’m just curious from that perspective, whether combined judging in competitions is fair.

 

[Iseneye]

I didn’t read through all 23 pages so far but this is an interesting topic. My question would be for those homebrewers who enter competitions. I gather all the IPAs are bunched into one category? I haven’t been in the competition loop for some time. So what winners are we seeing coming out of these combined categories? Are the hazy beers winning all the time?

IPA is category 21. There are 9 separate styles under category 21. If I was brewing a fruity hazy beer then it would be entered under New England IPA. If I was doing a west coast then it would be under standard IPA. There is also category 22A for double IPA so there are 10 different options.

 

[bwible]

“IPA is category 21. There are 9 separate styles under category 21. If I was brewing a fruity hazy beer then it would be entered under New England IPA. If I was doing a west coast then it would be under standard IPA. There is also category 22A for double IPA so there are 10 different options.”

Thats ridiculous.

 

[grampamark]

“IPA is category 21. There are 9 separate styles under category 21. If I was brewing a fruity hazy beer then it would be entered under New England IPA. If I was doing a west coast then it would be under standard IPA. There is also category 22A for double IPA so there are 10 different options.”

Thats ridiculous.

BJCP is to homebrewing what HOAs are to homeownership. You have to voluntarily agree to do things a certain way and give up the way you would do things if left to your own devices.

There’s nothing wrong with either one, if one is willing to accept someone else’s arbitrary standards, which are only binding if one agrees to make them so.

 

[SEndorf]

BJCP is to homebrewing what HOAs are to homeownership. You have to voluntarily agree to do things a certain way and give up the way you would do things if left to your own devices.

There’s nothing wrong with either one, if one is willing to accept someone else’s arbitrary standards, which are only binding if one agrees to make them so.

An interesting analogy. I completely agree.
BJCP requires a certain rigidity to standardize competitions. Otherwise it would be impossible.
If your not formulating a competition beer, brew to your palette, not your category.

 

[applescrap]

Thats ridiculous.

Or is it...
Im not overly familiar with bjcp styles so dont quote me on these. I respect the bjcp and their work. I am not interested in joining them and have my opinions about taste certification but keep them to myself. I also respect judging and tasting for the purposes it serves and god bless those passionate enough to pursue this craft. Also within these categories are brewing inspirations for me.

Back to the ipa, where to start. Belgian ipa. That clearly (see what i did) isnt american ipa. And for the English brother across the pond, i would hope the english ipa has a place. Black ipa must be one. Fruit loops ipa has its place. And of course the point of this thread. Nagrogs beloved dishwasher juice. I figure there are more I cant think of.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

IPA is category 21. There are 9 separate styles under category 21. If I was brewing a fruity hazy beer then it would be entered under New England IPA. If I was doing a west coast then it would be under standard IPA. There is also category 22A for double IPA so there are 10 different options."

That's ridiculous.

Well, yes and no. Style guidelines exist for a reason--to help us discuss and categorize beer. The key is that to some extent style guidelines are descriptive. A proliferation of defined beer styles is simply a recognition that there are a lot of ways to make beer.

IPA is a particularly good (or bad) example, depending on who you ask. 10 different styles of IPA might seem ridiculous on its face. But brewers [home or pro] have taken some of the defining characteristics of IPA, a beer style simply defined as being aggressively hop-forward in flavor and aroma, and have gone MANY ways with it. If I describe a beer as "this is an IPA" and then I hand you a Black IPA, or a Belgian IPA, I am technically correct but I have likely misled you related to what's going to be in the glass.

That's what started this whole thread, in fact.

At the risk of backlash, yes I'm posting this! Am I the only one (or one of a few) that isnt on board with the Haze Craze?

I might be open minded to the "style" if it weren't for the association with IPA... Other than the large qty's of hops used, I dont think these beers are characteristic of IPA at all. Personally, the lack of clarity is off-putting and I believe its damaged what a lot of folks think beers should look like. For example, now you can be served a glass of yeast and nobody thinks there is anything wrong with the pour!

I'll admit that I have tasted some that were pretty tasty and had a good aroma but still... IPA?? Really??? Can we just not have a "Hazy Ale" category instead of bastardizing IPA?

MIPACA.... I need to make some hats!

In all honesty, it doesn't really matter what it's called. But the fact is that it should be called something separate from "IPA", even if it's some sort of "Hazy IPA" or "NE IPA" descriptor. Because if I go into a bar and I see "IPA" on the menu with no modifier, I'm expecting to be served a classic American IPA, and a Hazy IPA is NOT the same thing at all.

 

[davidabcd]

Missed my 30 min hop addition by 4 min because I was reading this thread.
I'm not into the IPA anything but it's interesting reading the viewpoints. The hop sellers are pleased with the amounts being sold, I'm sure.

I'd like to see the results of a blindfolded taste test on all of these sub-styles and see how the professional judges do with them. I could probably guess two or three distinct types.

When I bring beer to a party, I have written out for people what to expect when drinking a particular style.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Well, yes and no. Style guidelines exist for a reason--to help us discuss and categorize beer. The key is that to some extent style guidelines are descriptive. A proliferation of defined beer styles is simply a recognition that there are a lot of ways to make beer.

IPA is a particularly good (or bad) example, depending on who you ask. 10 different styles of IPA might seem ridiculous on its face. But brewers [home or pro] have taken some of the defining characteristics of IPA, a beer style simply defined as being aggressively hop-forward in flavor and aroma, and have gone MANY ways with it. If I describe a beer as "this is an IPA" and then I hand you a Black IPA, or a Belgian IPA, I am technically correct but I have likely misled you related to what's going to be in the glass.

That's what started this whole thread, in fact.



In all honesty, it doesn't really matter what it's called. But the fact is that it should be called something separate from "IPA", even if it's some sort of "Hazy IPA" or "NE IPA" descriptor. Because if I go into a bar and I see "IPA" on the menu with no modifier, I'm expecting to be served a classic American IPA, and a Hazy IPA is NOT the same thing at all.

But, as this is easily the current trend and dominant form OF an American IPA, both at home and commercially, one could posit that this *is* American IPA, and that the simple IPA moniker, as used to describe West Coast pale, highly bitter IPA is as inappropriate to the modern style as an OLD SCHOOL malty/balanced East Coast/Mid-Atlantic IPA.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

But, as this is easily the current trend and dominant form OF an American IPA, both at home and commercially, one could posit that this *is* American IPA, and that the simple IPA moniker, as used to describe West Coast pale, highly bitter IPA is as inappropriate to the modern style as an OLD SCHOOL malty/balanced East Coast/Mid-Atlantic IPA.

I would not call it dominant by any stretch. Nor do we know whether it has staying power as a trend.

But I'll meet you halfway. If breweries all agree to label hazy IPA as hazy, I support all breweries also being asked to label west coast IPA as west coast (or whatever term we agree upon).

 

[Qhrumphf]

I would not call it dominant by any stretch. Nor do we know whether it has staying power as a trend.

But I'll meet you halfway. If breweries all agree to label hazy IPA as hazy, I support all breweries also being asked to label west coast IPA as west coast (or whatever term we agree upon).

It's been at least a good few years as a steady force. I'd call that staying power. And at least here on the east coast it's a safe bet that if you order an IPA with no further elaboration, that's what you'll get. I'd call that dominant.

I would be in favor of all restaurants/bars labeling whatever style of IPA. West Coast. East Coast. New England. English. Black. White. Belgian. Whatever. But brewers aren't gonna abide by that anyway. Ultimately, if you're not sure, *ask for a sample*. Almost anyone should give you a little taste, at least enough to tell the difference. And it's no bigger an issue than a good West Coast IPA vs a harsh, biting, astringent one.

 

[grampamark]

I’ve mentioned this before (maybe even in this thread, but I’m too lazy to look). The most popular beers in America are all tasteless, odorless, and colorless Light American Lagers. Craft beer (which the various trade associations seem to agree is all breweries producing less than 6MM barrels/year) accounts for 25% of the market. Anybody seriously want to claim that hazy IPAs make up the majority of the craft beer market? Me neither.

The most popular “craft” beer in the US is probably Boston Lager or Blue Moon. Hazy IPAs, or any IPA, regardless of how one defines IPA, might be a rounding error in the overall craft beer market. Hazy IPAs are the most popular style among a small percentage of the beer drinkers in this country. Period. Same goes for just about anybody on this board’s favorite style.

Hazy IPAs are wildly popular with the folks who hang out in cool, trendy, soon-to-go-Tango-Uniform brewpubs. They aren’t on the radar of the people who buy “not BMC” beer at Albertson’s, Winco, or Krogers.

Those of us who waste time well on forums such as this can easily forget that we’re a tiny minority within the minority of Americans who prefer craft beer to the bland, mass produced stuff.

 

[eimar]

PLease allow a crabby , traditional ,Belgian old fart to jump into the discussion . Way too many subcategories in the 21 IPA style. The word IPA is used to lure the naive customer, the way abbey beers are labeled: the ignorant customer think it is a trappist.
Some beers has nothing to do with Bass, and should be in a separate category how about a "hazy Rhodes Island amarillo soup " style for example. It tells exacly the customer what to expect.

Why so many pseudo beer styles created overnight by the BJCP ?( it takes centuries to create a real beer style ) because of the conspiration between BJCP and the beer festivals organizers. The more beer styles , the more breweries will enter the comptitions because they'll find a category that fits their beer ( instead of brewing a beer to fit in the category ) . And of course the richer the beer festivals organizers will become.

Now I have to go because 2 hours from now I'll be judging a beer competition with only 1 style and this style is ... category 11 , real IPA and bitter.

TO resume, make IPAclear again

Jacques

 

[Blazinlow86]

I’ve mentioned this before (maybe even in this thread, but I’m too lazy to look). The most popular beers in America are all tasteless, odorless, and colorless Light American Lagers. Craft beer (which the various trade associations seem to agree is all breweries producing less than 6MM barrels/year) accounts for 25% of the market. Anybody seriously want to claim that hazy IPAs make up the majority of the craft beer market? Me neither.

The most popular “craft” beer in the US is probably Boston Lager or Blue Moon. Hazy IPAs, or any IPA, regardless of how one defines IPA, might be a rounding error in the overall craft beer market. Hazy IPAs are the most popular style among a small percentage of the beer drinkers in this country. Period. Same goes for just about anybody on this board’s favorite style.

Hazy IPAs are wildly popular with the folks who hang out in cool, trendy, soon-to-go-Tango-Uniform brewpubs. They aren’t on the radar of the people who buy “not BMC” beer at Albertson’s, Winco, or Krogers.

Those of us who waste time well on forums such as this can easily forget that we’re a tiny minority within the minority of Americans who prefer craft beer to the bland, mass produced stuff.

Your getting way off topic. Were talking about IPAs here not BMC or Boston lager. Due to the overwhelming popularity of the new style ipas the odds of ordering a beer labeled ipa and getting a old style is pretty slim and for finicky drinkers its appears to be a issue hence the creation of the thread. Obviously if hazy ipas weren't such a crowd favorite this threads wouldn't have been started in the first place. YMMV. Cheers

 

[Qhrumphf]

PLease allow a crabby , traditional ,Belgian old fart to jump into the discussion . Way too many subcategories in the 21 IPA style. The word IPA is used to lure the naive customer, the way abbey beers are labeled: the ignorant customer think it is a trappist.
Some beers has nothing to do with Bass, and should be in a separate category how about a "hazy Rhodes Island amarillo soup " style for example. It tells exacly the customer what to expect.

Why so many pseudo beer styles created overnight by the BJCP ?( it takes centuries to create a real beer style ) because of the conspiration between BJCP and the beer festivals organizers. The more beer styles , the more breweries will enter the comptitions because they'll find a category that fits their beer ( instead of brewing a beer to fit in the category ) . And of course the richer the beer festivals organizers will become.

Now I have to go because 2 hours from now I'll be judging a beer competition with only 1 style and this style is ... category 11 , real IPA and bitter.

TO resume, make IPAclear again

Jacques

Ummmm, no. This is hogwash.

Breweries brew what sells. Every so often a brewery will take a chance and make something new. If it catches on, others follow on the bandwagon. That's how a style is born. Some styles have staying power and others may fade into the background or go extinct entirely. It has f*** all to do with the BJCP or festivals.

You think breweries give a toss about BJCP styles?

 

[eimar]

Ummmm, no. This is hogwash.

Breweries brew what sells. Every so often a brewery will take a chance and make something new. If it catches on, others follow on the bandwagon. That's how a style is born. Some styles have staying power and others may fade into the background or go extinct entirely. It has f*** all to do with the BJCP or festivals.

You think breweries give a toss about BJCP styles?

Hogwash ?? I am translating the conversation I had with Chris Bauweraerts. In case you don't know him , he is the nobody founder of La Chouffe and of course he doesn't know what he is talking about.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Hogwash ?? I am translating the conversation I had with Chris Bauweraerts. In case you don't know him , he is the nobody founder of La Chouffe and of course he doesn't know what he is talking about.

If he thinks beer styles and IPA subtypes are a conspiracy between the BJCP and beer festivals/competitions, then in this case no, he doesn't know what he's talking about.

That's conspiracy theory nonsense.

 

[Schlenkerla]

PLease allow a crabby , traditional ,Belgian old fart to jump into the discussion . Way too many subcategories in the 21 IPA style. The word IPA is used to lure the naive customer, the way abbey beers are labeled: the ignorant customer think it is a trappist.
Some beers has nothing to do with Bass, and should be in a separate category how about a "hazy Rhodes Island amarillo soup " style for example. It tells exacly the customer what to expect.

Why so many pseudo beer styles created overnight by the BJCP ?( it takes centuries to create a real beer style ) because of the conspiration between BJCP and the beer festivals organizers. The more beer styles , the more breweries will enter the comptitions because they'll find a category that fits their beer ( instead of brewing a beer to fit in the category ) . And of course the richer the beer festivals organizers will become.

Now I have to go because 2 hours from now I'll be judging a beer competition with only 1 style and this style is ... category 11 , real IPA and bitter.

TO resume, make IPAclear again

Jacques

I guess I don't have an issue with a BJCP classification to separate it out from whats been known to be more traditional. English Style, then American. As for American styles there will be more bastardization for marketing gimmicks and just pushing style guidelines. (For making a profit and what the public wants.)

That said so many places make mediocre fad beers. When maybe they should try to get the classics dialed in before brewing some mediocre fad beer. Jack of all trades expert of none with brewing comes to mind. I understand why they do it though. I've had a Renaissance in brewing trying to limit my styles to 3-4 beers and brew them over and over. I used to brew different beers all the time and never repeat them. Switching/adoption of LOB has me looking at process refinement that drives me to repetitive brewing of my favorites. Pale Ales, Ambers, Rauchbier and Stouts.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Ummmm, no. This is hogwash.

Breweries brew what sells. Every so often a brewery will take a chance and make something new. If it catches on, others follow on the bandwagon. That's how a style is born. Some styles have staying power and others may fade into the background or go extinct entirely. It has f*** all to do with the BJCP or festivals.

You think breweries give a toss about BJCP styles?

Yeah, there's two schools of thought going on here. The traditionalist and polar opposite Avant Garde brewer. Neither are really wrong.

The traditionalist wants beers within the style guidelines. They have a history that they don't want bastardized. Thinking CAMRA folks.

Then the Avant Garde who says bless the guidelines. Explore the boundaries of other beer styles. A lot of that comes from New Hop strains and advances in brewing. Thinking malsters and hop producers. Then oodles of specialty and base malts. Then Cryo-hops, hop oils...

I think about the advent of better controls of malting that no longer made every malt a smoked dark or brown roasted malt. The invention of the black patent roaster allowed the milds, browns, stouts and porters to be much more economical to produce. They only needed a fraction of roasted malt to make that beer. Hence lower cost to brew.

To some degree the traditionalist needs to maintain the style guidelines for historical reasons and be ready when that style falls out of favor. Berliner Weisse and Gräzter, Göse are few that come to mind. Also big business drives change over the nature of competition. Like us all, we welcome the craft brewers for what it is preservation of a style or the new twist on a great beer.

 

[bwible]

10 different styles of IPA might seem ridiculous on its face. But brewers [home or pro] have taken some of the defining characteristics of IPA, a beer style simply defined as being aggressively hop-forward in flavor and aroma, and have gone MANY ways with it. If I describe a beer as "this is an IPA" and then I hand you a Black IPA, or a Belgian IPA, I am technically correct but I have likely misled you related to what's going to be in the glass.

Well maybe there doesn’t need to be a niche category for each and every unique concoction somebody can imagine. Another question would be how many entries each of these oddball niche categories draws in competitions throughout the country every year. If the average competition is seeing 1 black IPA, then does that REALLY need to be a category?

In all honesty, it doesn't really matter what it's called. But the fact is that it should be called something separate from "IPA", even if it's some sort of "Hazy IPA" or "NE IPA" descriptor. Because if I go into a bar and I see "IPA" on the menu with no modifier, I'm expecting to be served a classic American IPA, and a Hazy IPA is NOT the same thing at all.

This. Yes. Simple truth in labelling so one knows what to expect or what one is buying.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

Well maybe there doesn’t need to be a niche category for each and every unique concoction somebody can imagine. Another question would be how many entries each of these oddball niche categories draws in competitions throughout the country every year. If the average competition is seeing 1 black IPA, then does that REALLY need to be a category?

Usually categories only become "official" after a beer style has been popular for an extended period of time. And often oddball categories are grouped. For example we mentioned 10 IPA styles (actually it's less, about 7). Category 21 in the BJCP is IPA. 21A is American IPA. 21B is "Specialty IPA", with unique sub-descriptions for Belgian IPA, Black IPA, Brown IPA, Red IPA, Rye IPA, and White IPA. However in a competition, where IPA is generally the most popular style [or close to it], all of those IPAs will be scored as one group and compete against each other. You won't have typically individual medals for each sub-category. In this case the 21B descriptions are just a way to let the judges know what sub-style of IPA you are being scored against.

Not every crazy concoction actually results in a category. For example, there is NO category within the BJCP for Hazy IPA. It's frankly too new, despite being enormously popular. The BJCP hasn't updated their style guidelines since 2015. There probably will be a Hazy IPA category in the next update, because this trend appears to have enough staying power to remain at least a niche. There's no category for glitter beer, either. However, unlike Hazy IPA it will likely never be a BJCP-defined style, even though it was a crazy concoction that was a trend for about 15 minutes.

This. Yes. Simple truth in labelling so one knows what to expect or what one is buying.

That's all we ask.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Black IPAs had their day. Soon enough they can be relegated to the Historical category where they belong LMAO.

I will say, I've seen more Black IPAs than Lichtenhainers in competition. I've seen more Grodziskie than both combined (at homebrew level at least).

 

[Schlenkerla]

Black IPAs had their day. Soon enough they can be relegated to the Historical category where they belong LMAO.

I will say, I've seen more Black IPAs than Lichtenhainers in competition. I've seen more Grodziskie than both combined (at homebrew level at least).

Fuggin Black IPAs. It's non traditional. It's an abberation. For some reason I think the NEIPA will be around for awhile like the California Common.

Lichtenhanner and Grodziske or Gräzter and Gose are really old, somewhat defunct regional specialties. Gose seeing a resurgence as of lately. Most Brewers can't even name a benchmark brand of those beers. That's if they even have one.

That said, I don't know who makes a benchmark Black IPA that's worth committing to memory.

 

[Miraculix]

Fuggin Black IPAs. It's non traditional. It's an abberation. For some reason I think the NEIPA will be around for awhile like the California Common.

Lichtenhanner and Grodziske or Gräzter and Gose are really old, somewhat defunct regional specialties. Gose seeing a resurgence as of lately. Most Brewers can't even name a benchmark brand of those beers. That's if they even have one.

That said, I don't know who makes a benchmark Black IPA that's worth committing to memory.

Why not call it IBA?

 

[Auger]

Why not call it IBA?

CDA*

 

[Miraculix]

CDA*

I don't like the cascadian, because it's not necessarily hopped with cascade. Although I love cascade. Indian black ale or Indian dark ale nails it imo.

 

[balrog]

Hoppy Roasty Ale

It gots nuthing to do with India.

 

[Qhrumphf]

I don't like the cascadian, because it's not necessarily hopped with cascade. Although I love cascade. Indian black ale or Indian dark ale nails it imo.

Cascadian referring to the PNW region (ie Cascade mountain range, Cascade river, etc), one of the dueling origin stories.

I don't care what it was called. It was a dumb idea, and I'm glad no one makes em any more.

But there were some good or least well regarded ones. Firestone Walker Wookey Jack and 21A Back In Black come to mind. Wookey Jack was one of the only good ones.

 

[Miraculix]

Cascadian referring to the PNW region (ie Cascade mountain range, Cascade river, etc), one of the dueling origin stories.

I don't care what it was called. It was a dumb idea, and I'm glad no one makes em any more.

But there were some good or least well regarded ones. Firestone Walker Wookey Jack and 21A Back In Black come to mind. Wookey Jack was one of the only good ones.

I had one once with loads of pine from the hops and almost zero roast. I really liked it! Don't remember the brewery....

 

[Qhrumphf]

I had one once with loads of pine from the hops and almost zero roast. I really liked it! Don't remember the brewery....

The best examples showed hardly any roast. You could make a really good one with zero actual roasted malts and just use Sinamar.

At which point, if you're only looking at appearance, you're walking down the same path as this obnoxious obsession with haze (for or against) while simultaneously disregarding the actual character. Or worse yet, glitter beer.

Otherwise, just make a hoppy brown ale or porter or stout.

 

[Miraculix]

The best examples showed hardly any roast. You could make a really good one with zero actual roasted malts and just use Sinamar.

At which point, if you're only looking at appearance, you're walking down the same path as this obnoxious obsession with haze (for or against) while simultaneously disregarding the actual character. Or worse yet, glitter beer.

Otherwise, just make a hoppy brown ale or porter or stout.

I agree.

Although a glitter beer would be interesting

Google s h I t glitter, it makes your s h I t glitter! No kidding!

 

[davidabcd]

If blindfolded during a taste test and without prior knowledge of which brand, the vast majority would not be able to reliably find differences in IPAs: cloudy, clear, black or otherwise.
More marketing, more marketing, more marketing.
People are 100% certain that they can differentiate which is great but they usually can't.
The same goes for the rest of the styles.
Have a friend buy 3-5 similar beers without telling you the style beforehand and do it blindfolded.

 

[hopjuice_71]

The best examples showed hardly any roast. You could make a really good one with zero actual roasted malts and just use Sinamar.

At which point, if you're only looking at appearance, you're walking down the same path as this obnoxious obsession with haze (for or against) while simultaneously disregarding the actual character. Or worse yet, glitter beer.

Otherwise, just make a hoppy brown ale or porter or stout.

Totally agree with this. I have brewed a handful of black IPAs and it is really strange brewing primarily for aesthetics - black with no/minimal roast flavour and hops up front. Miss the mark on roastiness and things get really weird. Imagine putting grapefruit or tropical flavours in your coffee? Blech. In my opinion, roast flavours do not mix well at all with hoppy, unless you are talking more traditional hop qualities like earthy or spicy.. ..maybe piney. Maybe this is why they seem to be going extinct on a commercial level (at least around here)?

 

[Schlenkerla]

I agree.

Although a glitter beer would be interesting

Google s h I t glitter, it makes your s h I t glitter! No kidding!

If you could serve beer pushing with helium in shots that might be heli-good time.

 

[Robert65]

The best examples showed hardly any roast. You could make a really good one with zero actual roasted malts and just use Sinamar.

At which point, if you're only looking at appearance, you're walking down the same path as this obnoxious obsession with haze (for or against) while simultaneously disregarding the actual character. Or worse yet, glitter beer.

Otherwise, just make a hoppy brown ale or porter or stout.

Appearance can affect our perception of taste, however. I recall a post by Boak and Bailey in the last year regarding Tim Taylor's Ram Tam best mild, of which the open secret/general presumption is that it is merely Landlord colored up with caramel. They noted that even with this intellectual knowledge in mind, they swear they can taste different flavors; and further argue, even if those flavors aren't really there, who cares, so long as they believe themselves to be perceiving and enjoying them? Food (or drink) for thought.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Appearance can affect our perception of taste, however. I recall a post by Boak and Bailey in the last year regarding Tim Taylor's Ram Tam best mild, of which the open secret/general presumption is that it is merely Landlord colored up with caramel. They noted that even with this intellectual knowledge in mind, they swear they can taste different flavors; and further argue, even if those flavors aren't really there, who cares, so long as they believe themselves to be perceiving and enjoying them? Food (or drink) for thought.

I suppose that's something to keep in mind. Could be said for coveted hype beers as well. If the anticipation, wait, lines, cost, search, whatever else is involved in getting some fabled liquid, builds up an expectation, and pure confirmation bias makes the actual product better than it objectively is, I suppose the enjoyment is no less real.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

Totally agree with this. I have brewed a handful of black IPAs and it is really strange brewing primarily for aesthetics - black with no/minimal roast flavour and hops up front. Miss the mark on roastiness and things get really weird. Imagine putting grapefruit or tropical flavours in your coffee? Blech. In my opinion, roast flavours do not mix well at all with hoppy, unless you are talking more traditional hop qualities like earthy or spicy.. ..maybe piney. Maybe this is why they seem to be going extinct on a commercial level (at least around here)?

I think maybe the original precursor to black IPA was Arrogant Bastard. While it was big and brash back when it first appeared, at 7.2% and 67 IBU it's not anywhere near revolutionary compared to current IPAs. At only about 22 SRM, it's a bit on the light side color-wise, but a little Carafa III would darken it without adding TOO much additional roast. It gets it roast character from Special B according to the AHA clone recipe, but replacing a tiny portion of that with Carafa III gives you black IPA.

That beer is 100% Chinook. Which IMHO is a good hop for that style.

I've also looked at the AHA homebrew clone recipe for Wookey Jack, a Black Rye IPA (potentially DIPA at 8.4%). That one uses primarily Citra and Amarillo, and it comes out excellent.

I wouldn't necessarily suggest that you put in some of the modern "juicy" hops in a black IPA, but hops and roast are not strangers to each other. Big imperial stouts often have significant bitterness and hop flavor/aroma.

The flavors can definitely work together if you pick the right hops.