Lallemand Verdant IPA Ale

[Protos]

I built water for those beers from Distilled Water following the Murphy water guidelines: 170 Ca / 400 S / 200 Cl for light Bitters and 220 Ca / 350 S / 250 Cl for strong Burtons.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

I've tried it only in light beers: 2 light Boddingtons and 2 strong Burtons. Each one came out more or less tart.
For darker English beers, I prefer M42 and M15 (or Lalbrews Nott & Windsor).

I think I prefer Verdant in darker beers myself, actually. Just a personal thing. My favourite V beers were a porter and an American Brown ale. Verdant doesnt quite suit english pales with its apricot thing. Good in American hopped pales obviously. An English brewery took an English yeast strain and converted it into a juicy American type by hurling large quantities of US hops at it repeatedly. Outrageous behaviour....

 

[Miraculix]

I built water for those beers from Distilled Water following the Murphy water guidelines: 170 Ca / 400 S / 200 Cl for light Bitters and 220 Ca / 350 S / 250 Cl for strong Burtons.

These are high levels, this is not necessary, is a very specialised profile and also not common to most actual British brewing waters.

It can very well be that you are tasting the high amount of minerals and interpret it as tartness.

I made experiments myself and for my personal taste, especially sulfate above 150 is too much. I try to target about 120 to 150 for chloride and about 100 for sulfate, no matter the British style I brew. These levels still boost flocculation but don't contribute much strangeness itself.

 

[Protos]

I gave that a thought too. I think that's not the case here. I made other beers too with the same water profiles and different yeasts and they weren't tart.
Last autumn, winter and spring I was fiddling massively with water, building different profiles from the scratch. My conclusion is that I'm maybe insensitive to water minerals. I taste little if any difference between similar beers brewed with radically different water profiles. The only things I could really distinguish were Sodium and Alkalinity levels: a surplus of the the former gave the beer a strange Clorine-like twang and the latter had a huge impact on the quality of hop bitterness. The rest demonstrated negligible difference whatever the concentration. So, after 25 or so of custom-built-water beers I went on with controlling just Alkalinity (via boiling and acidifying) and leaving SO and CaCl exactly as God put them into my tap water (50/50, which is nice and not extreme).

 

[Miraculix]

I gave that a thought too. I think that's not the case here. I made other beers too with the same water profiles and different yeasts and they weren't tart.
Last autumn, winter and spring I was fiddling massively with water, building different profiles from the scratch. My conclusion is that I'm maybe insensitive to water minerals. I taste little if any difference between similar beers brewed with radically different water profiles. The only things I could really distinguish were Sodium and Alkalinity levels: a surplus of the the former gave the beer a strange Clorine-like twang and the latter had a huge impact on the quality of hop bitterness. The rest demonstrated negligible difference whatever the concentration. So, after 25 or so of custom-built-water beers I went on with controlling just Alkalinity (via boiling and acidifying) and leaving SO and CaCl exactly as God put them into my tap water (50/50, which is nice and not extreme).

I think there might be a misinterpretation here on your side, at least from my personal point of view. I think that you are probably not insensitive to mineral levels, I think that mineral levels are highly overrated within this forum and that you might expect more from it than there actually is. We can start with this chloride/sulfat ratio thing, which is actually not how this mineral thing works and could end up with promoting HIGH levels of minerals for certain British styles in general, which is again, not how these things work.

Let us just assume that there are sufficient Ca levels, so that the yeast is happy and can flocculate as intended. This usually also means that sulfate and chloride levels are at about 100 ppm. Bam. Sweetspot, do not change this unless you have a really good reason to do so. If you want tp brew a specific historic IPA, that might be a good reason. You will end up with a certain twang or accalerated bitterness/dryness, however one might try to describe this strange elevated sulfate taste, but that is certainly a part of this specific brew (which I personally despise).

But if you are brewing anything else than a beer that sepcifically needs these HIGH levels of minerals, there is little to no reason to go that high, as it can easily destroy the beer, at least to my palate. I have made side by side tests with same brews but different mineral levels, have tried the "dosing some minerals directly to the beer in the glass" test thing, always the same results (again, other palates migth differ).

So long storry short, I would not be convinced, if I were you, that verdant is the reason for the tartness until I have brewed a beer without these excessive mineral additions that still has this tartness. Especially as you seem to be the only one here who made this experience with verdant.

ALkalinity however.... that has to be managed correctly. That one is important.

 

[beervoid]

I think there might be a misinterpretation here on your side, at least from my personal point of view. I think that you are probably not insensitive to mineral levels, I think that mineral levels are highly overrated within this forum and that you might expect more from it than there actually is. We can start with this chloride/sulfat ratio thing, which is actually not how this mineral thing works and could end up with promoting HIGH levels of minerals for certain British styles in general, which is again, not how these things work.

Let us just assume that there are sufficient Ca levels, so that the yeast is happy and can flocculate as intended. This usually also means that sulfate and chloride levels are at about 100 ppm. Bam. Sweetspot, do not change this unless you have a really good reason to do so. If you want tp brew a specific historic IPA, that might be a good reason. You will end up with a certain twang or accalerated bitterness/dryness, however one might try to describe this strange elevated sulfate taste, but that is certainly a part of this specific brew (which I personally despise).

But if you are brewing anything else than a beer that sepcifically needs these HIGH levels of minerals, there is little to no reason to go that high, as it can easily destroy the beer, at least to my palate. I have made side by side tests with same brews but different mineral levels, have tried the "dosing some minerals directly to the beer in the glass" test thing, always the same results (again, other palates migth differ).

So long storry short, I would not be convinced, if I were you, that verdant is the reason for the tartness until I have brewed a beer without these excessive mineral additions that still has this tartness. Especially as you seem to be the only one here who made this experience with verdant.

ALkalinity however.... that has to be managed correctly. That one is important.

How much CA do you aim for?

 

[Miraculix]

How much CA do you aim for?

Around 100 ppm.

 

[Protos]

I think that mineral levels are highly overrated within this forum and that you might expect more from it than there actually is. We can start with this chloride/sulfat ratio thing, which is actually not how this mineral thing works and could end up with promoting HIGH levels of minerals for certain British styles in general, which is again, not how these things work

That's true. Before I started messing with my water I had most thoroughfully studied all available threads on different forums. Which naturally instilled some strong expectations into my inquisitive mind. After all, some respectable homebrewers swore by the Suphate / Chloride Ratio. Which on practice turned out to be a fad, along with several other "common wisdoms" I learned there. Now I build water profiles only when a particular recipe requires a specific water. Otherwise, I just use my boiled tap water blessed with Ca, SO and Cl at 50 ppm each.
I'm still to figure out what's the "twang" aka "brighter hoppiness" aka "dryness" of SO. I fail to discern any significant difference between beers of 50 ppm and of 400 ppm SO content. (Sometimes I think, I need to apply for a permanent job at the Bruelosophy's Tasting Panel which is also notorious of its inability to distinguish between the variables ).
That's why I guess it might be something with my taste perception. Then more, I apparently have an unusual sensitivity to acidity as I was surprised to meet people here who don't find S-04 any kind of tart at all. To me, it's almost a lemon juice. Probably, now it's the same thing: I find Verdant a bit tart while most don't.

 

[Miraculix]

That's true. Before I started messing with my water I had most thoroughfully studied all available threads on different forums. Which naturally instilled some strong expectations into my inquisitive mind. After all, some respectable homebrewers swore by the Suphate / Chloride Ratio. Which on practice turned out to be a fad, along with several other "common wisdoms" I learned there. Now I build water profiles only when a particular recipe requires a specific water. Otherwise, I just use my boiled tap water blessed with Ca, SO and Cl at 50 ppm each.
I'm still to figure out what's the "twang" aka "brighter hoppiness" aka "dryness" of SO. I fail to discern any significant difference between beers of 50 ppm and of 400 ppm SO content. (Sometimes I think, I need to apply for a permanent job at the Bruelosophy's Tasting Panel which is also notorious of its inability to distinguish between the variables ).
That's why I guess it might be something with my taste perception. Then more, I apparently have an unusual sensitivity to acidity as I was surprised to meet people here who don't find S-04 any kind of tart at all. To me, it's almost a lemon juice. Probably, now it's the same thing: I find Verdant a bit tart while most don't.

hmm, ok that S04 example really makes it look like you are on to something regarding your personal taste sensitivity. I never had this S04 tartness in my beers. Or let´s say, I personally did not recognise it, maybe you would have.

For me it is oxidative falvours, especially almond. I can detect that one below twenty layers of roast, hops and crystal... that is so annoying btw.... ruined a lot of batches for me.

 

[MX1]

Anyone use this in a mead or Cyser?

 

[Protos]

That's amazing how different our palates might be!
I'm still to learn what's an oxidized flavour. I probably have a lot of it in my beers (I brew plenty and rarely give out my beer to others, so most of my beers are stored for quite a long time with almost no temp control) but have never tasted any.
S-04, I like it in all regards - flavour, attenuation, fermentation dynamics - but can't brew with it because it's so sour. Now I'm thinking of trying to propagate it first - some say it looses some of acidity in subsequent generations. Hopefully it does, will see.
Verdant, as my top-cropping experience proved, doesn't loose any acidity after repitching. Luckily, it isn't as tart to me as S-04.
Also, I won't say Verdant produces too much esters. Well, I taste in it a distinct pleasant fruity flavour, but not nearly as much as many report.

 

[Miraculix]

That's amazing how different our palates might be!
I'm still to learn what's an oxidized flavour. I probably have a lot of it in my beers (I brew plenty and rarely give out my beer to others, so most of my beers are stored for quite a long time with almost no temp control) but have never tasted any.
S-04, I like it in all regards - flavour, attenuation, fermentation dynamics - but can't brew with it because it's so sour. Now I'm thinking of trying to propagate it first - some say it looses some of acidity in subsequent generations. Hopefully it does, will see.
Verdant, as my top-cropping experience proved, doesn't loose any acidity after repitching. Luckily, it isn't as tart to me as S-04.
Also, I won't say Verdant produces too much esters. Well, I taste in it a distinct pleasant fruity flavour, but not nearly as much as many report.

Total fruit bomb for me

 

[duncan_disorderly]

I detect the tartness in S04 but not in Verdant.

Oxidised flavours in old beer are very noticeable. To me anyway. I struggle to believe anybody would fail to detect them as they take over and change the beer significantly. I have found some beers have oxidised much more than others though.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Anyone else get the everlasting krausen with Verdant?
I have a beer fermenting now, brewed a week ago that still has a little krausen layer on top, and the previous one also took a little over a week to fully drop down.

 

[Miraculix]

Anyone else get the everlasting krausen with Verdant?
I have a beer fermenting now, brewed a week ago that still has a little krausen layer on top, and the previous one also took a little over a week to fully drop down.

Yes, that's a common thing. It has the biggest and strongest yeast layer on top that I've ever seen. Sometimes it doesn't go down at all.

 

[Miraculix]

I detect the tartness in S04 but not in Verdant.

Oxidised flavours in old beer are very noticeable. To me anyway. I struggle to believe anybody would fail to detect them as they take over and change the beer significantly. I have found some beers have oxidised much more than others though.

There are steps involved. Beer can be oxidised and most people wouldn't taste it. Oxidation flavor does not start at fully darkened beer which tastes like cardboard. It can be a slight increase of sweetness or a hint of almond. I get the latter a lot in my beers when the fermenter wasn't really air tight or the head space in the bottle is too big.

 

[Carolina_Matt]

Anyone else get the everlasting krausen with Verdant?
I have a beer fermenting now, brewed a week ago that still has a little krausen layer on top, and the previous one also took a little over a week to fully drop down.

Funny you say that. I brewed a beer last Friday. I'm fermenting with Verdant at 65 degrees. When I looked at it this morning (8 days into fermentation) I thought "when is this krausen going to drop?". I hadn't noticed it until today.

I'm in no rush with this one since my kegerator is full, but I usually tap a keg after maybe 10 days of fermentation.

 

[Miraculix]

Funny you say that. I brewed a beer last Friday. I'm fermenting with Verdant at 65 degrees. When I looked at it this morning (8 days into fermentation) I thought "when is this krausen going to drop?". I hadn't noticed it until today.

I'm in no rush with this one since my kegerator is full, but I usually tap a keg after maybe 10 days of fermentation.

You shouldn't wait for it to drop. Just keg when it is done.

 

[Joshua Hughes]

I guess you like it in dark ales? I've yet to to try it in a stout.... So many beers to brew, so little time....

I love in brown ales and porters

 

[duncan_disorderly]

There are steps involved. Beer can be oxidised and most people wouldn't taste it. Oxidation flavor does not start at fully darkened beer which tastes like cardboard. It can be a slight increase of sweetness or a hint of almond. I get the latter a lot in my beers when the fermenter wasn't really air tight or the head space in the bottle is too big.

I used to eat cardboard and I've never found that taste in beer. Ive had that sherry thing a few times.

 

[Red over White]

This has been a pretty versatile yeast for me. I split batch 10 and 15 gal batches along with a lager yeast in the other half. In 1.040 beers it can turn around in 7 days when I need to fill the pipeline and sit on the lager portion. With just 2 psi head pressure fermented in the mid 60's it will give off its ester profile as expected, at 50% attenuation it can be ramped to 28 psi and retain it Apricot ester. With 10 psi head pressure from pitch it is a very clean yeast with no fruit esters and a nice malt profile. Attenuates well enough to control body in the mashtun for thin to medium body brews as required. It works in light and dark beers and is controllable for the ester profile, I really like this dry yeast.

 

[Shenanigans]

Anyone here have experience with repitching several generations of Verdant?
I brewed up an NEIPA with it and after 9 days it's gone from 1.066 to 1.006 which is a whopping 90% apparent attenuation.
I will check it again tonight to be sure it is finished.
Normally I get 80% with this recipe as there is 3.6% sugar which bumps it up a bit.
It's a 3rd or 4th generation yeast where I top-cropped from another beer and then made a starter later.
Is it's attenuation known to increase with each generation?
I know WLP005 does that because it's happened to me twice before with that yeast.

There are no signs of infection and the beer tastes normal and it's not hop creep because I still need to add the dry hops.
It's an old school NEIPA that is not expected to finish around 1.020 like the most modern versions but I'm afraid 1.006 might be a bit thin to support all those hops.

Recipe is below.

Thanks!

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Anyone here have experience with repitching several generations of Verdant?
I brewed up an NEIPA with it and after 9 days it's gone from 1.066 to 1.006 which is a whopping 90% apparent attenuation.
I will check it again tonight to be sure it is finished.
Normally I get 80% with this recipe as there is 3.6% sugar which bumps it up a bit.
It's a 3rd or 4th generation yeast where I top-cropped from another beer and then made a starter later.
Is it's attenuation known to increase with each generation?
I know WLP005 does that because it's happened to me twice before with that yeast.

There are no signs of infection and the beer tastes normal and it's not hop creep because I still need to add the dry hops.
It's an old school NEIPA that is not expected to finish around 1.020 like the most modern versions but I'm afraid 1.006 might be a bit thin to support all those hops.

Recipe is below.

Thanks!

View attachment 859522

I've got to 3 or 4 generations and for me the attenuation has remained steady in the mid 70s % wise. Verdant is a form of 1318 that was being pitched in a brewery, do people experience increasing attenuation with 1318? I don't know. Could your yeast have picked up a STA1 strain from a Saison batch?

 

[ebbelwoi]

I've gone to about the 4th generation via top-cropping twice, and the attenuation ranged from maybe 74-77, similar to the results that @duncan_disorderly has gotten.

 

[Shenanigans]

Thanks for confirming guys.
I did indeed see that LAIII can be repitched multiple times without any noticeable mutations.
Not sure what's going on with my batch but STA1 could be a source.
I need to think where from though
I had something similar before but normally it first raised its ugly head a few weeks after bottling.
I'm going to dry hop tonight so will measure again.
If the SG hasn't changed I'll just go for it
At least in a few days it will be in a keg with a PRV at about 5 degrees Celsius.
So no danger of bottle bombs but I will bleach everything afterwards to be on the safe side.

 

[beervoid]

Thanks for confirming guys.
I did indeed see that LAIII can be repitched multiple times without any noticeable mutations.
Not sure what's going on with my batch but STA1 could be a source.
I need to think where from though
I had something similar before but normally it first raised its ugly head a few weeks after bottling.
I'm going to dry hop tonight so will measure again.
If the SG hasn't changed I'll just go for it
At least in a few days it will be in a keg with a PRV at about 5 degrees Celsius.
So no danger of bottle bombs but I will bleach everything afterwards to be on the safe side.

Most likely it's related to pitch rate, which is difficult to dial in with repitches if you don't do a cell count.

 

[Shenanigans]

Most likely it's related to pitch rate, which is difficult to dial in with repitches if you don't do a cell count.

Yeah also a possibility.
I kegged the beer last night and it was still at 1.006 and has been for at least 4 days.
I checked it for the first time on day 9 so it might have been fisnished even earlier.
I'm not so concerned now as I was when I first measured as it looks pretty stable.

 

[tyrub42]

I've got to 3 or 4 generations and for me the attenuation has remained steady in the mid 70s % wise. Verdant is a form of 1318 that was being pitched in a brewery, do people experience increasing attenuation with 1318? I don't know. Could your yeast have picked up a STA1 strain from a Saison batch?

Yes LAiii get more aggressive over generations. I'm not sure how many that spans, though.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Yes LAiii get more aggressive over generations. I'm not sure how many that spans, though.

Strange that Verdant yeast seems to stay in the mud 70s over generations. Strange but true, I think. Maybe it gets more aggressive eventually.

 

[corncob]

Same for me. I'm on the third repitch with my first packs of verdant ever, and I've seen zero perceptible change in attenuation, behavior, or taste. I think it likes to go about 75%, but I've got one going now to see how high I can push it, and another planned to see how low.
I'm going to do a post when I get through the series, but one thing I've noticed (I think) is that the trademark "fruit salad" flavors seem to present at any fermentation temperature, but increase noticeable with gravity. The last beer will be a lower gravity mild--I'm hoping to get confirmation.