is there a real substitute for llalemand kolsch yeast

[fluketamer]

i repitched the whole cake (trub, hops, dead cells, a little beer etc) from the first kolsch into my latest one and got a cleaner tasting kolsch with absolutely no off flavors. it went to 81%!!! attenuation. for abv of 5.2 abv
it dropped much better than the initial pitch and is crystal clear. the repitched slurry worked better than just the one pack of dry yeast.

i initially only pitched one pack and fermented at 59 degrees. it had a long lag time but then worked very well . maybe the repitched slurry worked better because of cell count.

i again have the whole cake from my second kolsch now split into two 8 oz mason jars in the kegerator at 38 degrees. (taking serious offers only, and it will go to the highest bidder. lol )

i usually just throw both of them into the next batch except for some of the really compacted sludge at the bottom of the jars which i assume is dead cells and trub . thats what i did last time . but now that this is unobtainium, i am thinking of just using one and maybe freezing the other.

how come i cant make something out of nothing. i want more of these jars. i keep expecting to get a bigger cake with every repitch but i am always coming up with two 8 oz jars?

can i grow up this yeast without flasks and stir plate and feeding? can i just pitch each jar into 2 liters of wort and expect to get more yeast or that wont work?


thanks

 

[dmtaylor]

Just put a split batch into fermenters with Koln and M54.

Thank you! Please let us know the differences!

 

[AlexKay]

Thank you! Please let us know the differences!

Can do. The Koln will probably take at least a month to clear, so I’ll try to report back in early June.

I don’t have the most sensitive palate. I’m hoping to bring them to a club meeting to get a few viewpoints.

If I have time, I’ll do a duplicate batch and split that one between 2565 and Kolsch II. Or maybe 1007? Depends what I can get my hands on…

 

[HM-2]

I had no idea they were discontinuing Koln- very disappointing as its my NEIPA house yeast.

 

[rtstrider]

I had no idea they were discontinuing Koln- very disappointing as its my NEIPA house yeast.

Not going to speak for Lallemand but will say this strain was very inconsistent. From dry state lag time was awful regardless of pitch rate. Another member, along with myself, experienced phenols from this strain in it's early days as well. I wrote Lallemand on it and the sent some packs of Koln. I tested pitching a whole pack into I think it was 1L 1.020 wort (will have to go back and look through the forums) and it still took around 3-4 days to start working with the full yeast pack. I then stepped it up to 2L 1.040 and banked it up. I can see why they chose this yeast though because from liquid state this takes off like gangbusters. I'm talking full krausen at 15-17 hours instead of 2-3 days. This is also a really good/clean kolsch strain. It just doesn't perform consistently is what the consensus has been from discussions both on, and off, the forums.

 

[IrondaleBrewing]

Lately I've been using Novalager on my Kolsch recipes. Although it doesn't taste like a true Kolsch you would get in Cologne, it produces a very good beer and because of numerous requests I have continued to brew it over again. It seems like it has a slight blueberry like ester. For some reason it tastes really good in the Kolsch recipe I use.

I seriously can't really call it a Kolsch though but then again I don't call anything a Kolsch unless it's actually brewed in Cologne.


DMF.

Thanks for sharing this -- I'm doing a Kolsch this weekend and was planning on using NovaLager so it's great to know you've had good results with it!

 

[rtstrider]

Thanks for sharing this -- I'm doing a Kolsch this weekend and was planning on using NovaLager so it's great to know you've had good results with it!

I do believe Novalager would make a decent koslch strain. Now I will say short of filtering this strain takes about a month of cold conditioning to hit it's stride. I was not a fan of this strain right out of the gate, but, after a month of conditioning in the keg I could see where it could make a nice lite american ale or even an american kolsch strain. Think budweiser yeast but more apple and and less crispness and that's the best way I know to describe this strain.

 

[IrondaleBrewing]

I do believe Novalager would make a decent koslch strain. Now I will say short of filtering this strain takes about a month of cold conditioning to hit it's stride. I was not a fan of this strain right out of the gate, but, after a month of conditioning in the keg I could see where it could make a nice lite american ale or even an american kolsch strain. Think budweiser yeast but more apple and and less crispness and that's the best way I know to describe this strain.

Excellent, thanks! I'm planning on fermenting at 60F and conditioning for four weeks so that's great to know. Apparently NovaLager can hit FG pretty quickly but I'll probably let it go for a full two weeks so as not to rush anything. I appreciate the additional info!

 

[Slim M]

2-3 days in a starter to get going!

 

[Slim M]

sorry double post

 

[Draft Master Flash]

Thanks for sharing this -- I'm doing a Kolsch this weekend and was planning on using NovaLager so it's great to know you've had good results with it!

No problem, I think you'll be pleased with the results!


DMF.

 

[HM-2]

2-3 days in a starter to get going!

It's a weird one and a testament to how much variance we see in our hobby. I've done probably a dozen batches with Köln and with the exception of 2 occasions I've got ~83% attenuation instead of the ~77%ish I usually achieve despite having lower fermentability worts, it's been solid as a rock from initial pitch to kegging.


Never had fermentation take more than ~24 hours to start, even when I've accidently cooled down to 15°C pre pitch and not run with any heating.

Never had it throw any esters other than a vague hint of stone fruit or apple/pear, even at 25°C.


As I mentioned it's been my house NEIPA yeast for about 15 months, precisely because it's been exceptionally reliable and predictable for me. Every beer I've made with it has been "great" or better except for one which was oxidised by a CO2 fitting failure, which you can hardly pin on Köln. IMO it's much better than either Verdant or New England in Lallemand 's range for hazies. And I literally dump it straight into the fermenter in dry form during transfer, no rehydration, no starters, no additional oxygen.

 

[fluketamer]

It's a weird one and a testament to how much variance we see in our hobby. I've done probably a dozen batches with Köln and with the exception of 2 occasions I've got ~83% attenuation instead of the ~77%ish I usually achieve despite having lower fermentability worts, it's been solid as a rock from initial pitch to kegging.


Never had fermentation take more than ~24 hours to start, even when I've accidently cooled down to 15°C pre pitch and not run with any heating.

Never had it throw any esters other than a vague hint of stone fruit or apple/pear, even at 25°C.


As I mentioned it's been my house NEIPA yeast for about 15 months, precisely because it's been exceptionally reliable and predictable for me. Every beer I've made with it has been "great" or better except for one which was oxidised by a CO2 fitting failure, which you can hardly pin on Köln. IMO it's much better than either Verdant or New England in Lallemand 's range for hazies. And I literally dump it straight into the fermenter in dry form during transfer, no rehydration, no starters, no additional oxygen.

very similar experiecne for me. this is a really good yeast imo. shame its going going gone. it has made me my best beers in a while much more forgiving than my lager yeasts in similar grain bills. super clean. drops like a rock and repitching it without a problem.

i am afraid i will only get about 5 pitches out of this pack. before its gone for good

 

[beersk]

The problem with 2565 is the white grape ester it creates. I have not once tasted that in any commercial German kolsch, namely Fruh, Reissdorf, Sunner, and Geoffel being the main ones I drink most often. They just don't have that flavor.

So if I were to use a dry yeast for a kolsch or liquid even, I'd probably go with 34/70 or 2124 and ferment it in the 60s. Or maybe ferment US-05 under pressure at a lower temp.

Alright, I admit fault, at least partially. lol I had a Reissdorf on tap at Hessen Haus in Des Moines last week after an Iowa Cubs game and got a very slight, maybe, white grape ester from it. The friend I was with agreed. But it was subtle. Still, I don't think that's an absolute requisite for good Kolsch as I don't taste it in all Kolsch biers I drink.

Either way, let us know how the Novalager turns out. Maybe I'll end up trying it one of these days.

EDIT: Maybe I was looking for that flavor, I don't know. But it had been a while since I'd had that beer too. And, to me, it's the quintessential Kolsch.

 

[Dog House Brew]

Kolsch has such a stylistic taste. To me it’s by itself. Like most here, I’ve tried all the yeasts. While I don’t mind 2565, there are others I like more. I will try the Omega. I’ve been running Giga021 for the last 8 years maybe. I love 021 and will keep going until I lose it somehow.
My last batch I used High Plains Pilsner and it fantastic. Not sure why everyone wants to use non Kolsch yeast and call it a Kolsch.

 

[fluketamer]

i repitched my llalemand kolsch yesterday and i forgot to oxygenate and i pitched too warm. 73 degrees. im cooling it down a little to 60 's but would you open the FV and oxygenate now or is it too late. it seems to be lagging compared to last time.

 

[Dog House Brew]

i repitched my llalemand kolsch yesterday and i forgot to oxygenate and i pitched too warm. 73 degrees. im cooling it down a little to 60 's but would you open the FV and oxygenate now or is it too late. it seems to be lagging compared to last time.

Leave it, you’ll be fine

 

[beersk]

Kolsch has such a stylistic taste. To me it’s by itself. Like most here, I’ve tried all the yeasts. While I don’t mind 2565, there are others I like more. I will try the Omega. I’ve been running Giga021 for the last 8 years maybe. I love 021 and will keep going until I lose it somehow.
My last batch I used High Plains Pilsner and it fantastic. Not sure why everyone wants to use non Kolsch yeast and call it a Kolsch.

Fair enough. I guess it's like using a witbier yeast to make a hefeweizen. It's really just not the same. Some might be fooled but anyone with any beer tasting experience will know.
I'm kind of amazed there aren't other actual dry kolsch yeast options. Same with Irish Ale dry yeast options. I'd love to have a dry version of wyeast 1084.

 

[Dog House Brew]

Fair enough. I guess it's like using a witbier yeast to make a hefeweizen. It's really just not the same. Some might be fooled but anyone with any beer tasting experience will know.
I'm kind of amazed there aren't other actual dry kolsch yeast options. Same with Irish Ale dry yeast options. I'd love to have a dry version of wyeast 1084.

100% agree

 

[fluketamer]

so i recently had a flight that included a kolsch and i was very impressed by the fact that the kolsch tasted very true to style. not like a pilsner or light lager.

i agree the kolsch is in the yeast otherwise its really just a cold conditioned pseudolager. or lager grain and hops with an ordinary ale yeast . not exactly the same.

but i definately think that most people wouldnt bea ble to tell the diference if you brewed the same hops and grain with a very clean ale yeast like notty in the low 60's or if you brewed it with 34/70 and told them it was a kolsch

side by side i could definatley tell but cold in a glass by itslef i dont think i would be able to tell if it was made with ale yeast other than kolsch.

i did get more pear white grape when i fermented at 64 then when i did it at 59. i think that could give it away if it was fermented on the warm side .

 

[rtstrider]

Finally had my first real imported Kolsch a few weeks ago. It was Gaffel and I think 2565 would definitely hit the ballpark of that strain. Of course their beer was way cleaner than I've ever been able to get 2565. Hoping to find Fruh this evening to give it a go and see how it compares to WLP029. In the meantime I'm spinning up some proprietary yeast from the bank that's supposedly either a Kolsch or Altbier strain. I think it's more in the ballpark of 1007 but the history on the strain is mum so it is what it is lol Was going to do some pressurized fermentation tests and go on a tear of 2-3 repitches to see how the strain responds in a pressure environment.

 

[mac_1103]

or lager grain and hops with an ordinary ale yeast

Isn't that a cream ale?

 

[balrog]

i keep expecting to get a bigger cake with every repitch but i am always coming up with two 8 oz jars?

Yeast propogate until they have a certain # cells per degree plato, so if you make the same beer (size batch and relatively same OG) you'll always be getting about the same biomass of yeast. Throw in a billion cells or 4 billion they still go to about 5 billion and don't make more as they "know" they have the right amount adn get to work on the sugars.

I’ve been running Giga021 for the last 8 years maybe. I love 021 and will keep going until I lose it somehow.

Giga021 was the perfect ester, light white wine, Kolsch-y profile, yeast.
I miss it so.
Mine finally died after about 2 years of repitching.

Sigh.

 

[beersk]

Did someone mention this one somewhere in this thread? https://www.morebeer.com/products/c...pzn3wk3PLT28sIQ_pxdyKtWwF6c_SKvhoCtSQQAvD_BwE

Wonder what this is a repackage of? Or is Cellar Science an independent yeast producer?

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Wonder what this is a repackage of? Or is Cellar Science an independent yeast producer?

Likely this yeast from AEB: https://www.aeb-group.com/us/fermoale-german-k-15501

Edit: which is likely the same as the Apex branded Kolsch. With a quick search, I also don't see this one in packs other than 500g (like the Cellar Science one as well). https://www.hopcraftsupply.com/products/apex-cultures-kolsch-yeast-500g-brick

 

[fluketamer]

Isn't that a cream ale?

yes it is

Yeast propogate until they have a certain # cells per degree plato, so if you make the same beer (size batch and relatively same OG) you'll always be getting about the same biomass of yeast. Throw in a billion cells or 4 billion they still go to about 5 billion and don't make more as they "know" they have the right amount adn get to work on the sugars.



Giga021 was the perfect ester, light white wine, Kolsch-y profile, yeast.
I miss it so.
Mine finally died after about 2 years of repitching.

Sigh.

thanks that makes a lot of sense

Did someone mention this one somewhere in this thread? https://www.morebeer.com/products/c...pzn3wk3PLT28sIQ_pxdyKtWwF6c_SKvhoCtSQQAvD_BwE

Wonder what this is a repackage of? Or is Cellar Science an independent yeast producer?

yeah i have had my eye on that one and i like cellar science so much i was planning on getting it. but i havent seen it in small packs just the brick.

 

[AlexKay]

Just put a split batch into fermenters with Koln and M54.

Just kegged these and started lagering. This is my first time using M54, and boy does it throw a ton of sulfur. Not drinkable as green beer, but we’ll see in a couple of months.

Making another split batch now with 2565, 1007, and Omega Kolsch II.

 

[Slim M]

yes it is

thanks that makes a lot of sense

yeah i have had my eye on that one and i like cellar science so much i was planning on getting it. but i havent seen it in small packs just the brick.

Yep I brought it up at some point sometime. I believe it’s repackaged AEB yeast. I actually think its quite possible all CellarScience is repackaged AEB because they seem to have the same stuff. Have a look.

https://www.aeb-group.com/us/fermoale-german-k-15501/fermoale-german-k-05kg_703

 

[jdubdvdt]

Just kegged these and started lagering. This is my first time using M54, and boy does it throw a ton of sulfur. Not drinkable as green beer, but we’ll see in a couple of months.

Making another split batch now with 2565, 1007, and Omega Kolsch II.

Results on the split batch? What was the final result with the Koln vs M54?

I am still on the hunt for a Kolsch yeast.

 

[rtstrider]

Results on the split batch? What was the final result with the Koln vs M54?

I am still on the hunt for a Kolsch yeast.

Kolsch is a weird style to me. After trying a few from Total Wine, and having some experience with the strains, it's easy to see why opinions are split on how they should taste. Gaffel reminds me a good bit of Wyeast 2565 (white winey) where as Fruh and Reissdorf really make me think WLP029 (clean with a subtle fruit/malt hint). So at the end of the day I would offer those as a good learning tool for tastes.