is there a real substitute for llalemand kolsch yeast

[Draft Master Flash]

Thanks for sharing this -- I'm doing a Kolsch this weekend and was planning on using NovaLager so it's great to know you've had good results with it!

No problem, I think you'll be pleased with the results!


DMF.

 

[HM-2]

2-3 days in a starter to get going!

It's a weird one and a testament to how much variance we see in our hobby. I've done probably a dozen batches with Köln and with the exception of 2 occasions I've got ~83% attenuation instead of the ~77%ish I usually achieve despite having lower fermentability worts, it's been solid as a rock from initial pitch to kegging.


Never had fermentation take more than ~24 hours to start, even when I've accidently cooled down to 15°C pre pitch and not run with any heating.

Never had it throw any esters other than a vague hint of stone fruit or apple/pear, even at 25°C.


As I mentioned it's been my house NEIPA yeast for about 15 months, precisely because it's been exceptionally reliable and predictable for me. Every beer I've made with it has been "great" or better except for one which was oxidised by a CO2 fitting failure, which you can hardly pin on Köln. IMO it's much better than either Verdant or New England in Lallemand 's range for hazies. And I literally dump it straight into the fermenter in dry form during transfer, no rehydration, no starters, no additional oxygen.

 

[fluketamer]

It's a weird one and a testament to how much variance we see in our hobby. I've done probably a dozen batches with Köln and with the exception of 2 occasions I've got ~83% attenuation instead of the ~77%ish I usually achieve despite having lower fermentability worts, it's been solid as a rock from initial pitch to kegging.


Never had fermentation take more than ~24 hours to start, even when I've accidently cooled down to 15°C pre pitch and not run with any heating.

Never had it throw any esters other than a vague hint of stone fruit or apple/pear, even at 25°C.


As I mentioned it's been my house NEIPA yeast for about 15 months, precisely because it's been exceptionally reliable and predictable for me. Every beer I've made with it has been "great" or better except for one which was oxidised by a CO2 fitting failure, which you can hardly pin on Köln. IMO it's much better than either Verdant or New England in Lallemand 's range for hazies. And I literally dump it straight into the fermenter in dry form during transfer, no rehydration, no starters, no additional oxygen.

very similar experiecne for me. this is a really good yeast imo. shame its going going gone. it has made me my best beers in a while much more forgiving than my lager yeasts in similar grain bills. super clean. drops like a rock and repitching it without a problem.

i am afraid i will only get about 5 pitches out of this pack. before its gone for good

 

[beersk]

The problem with 2565 is the white grape ester it creates. I have not once tasted that in any commercial German kolsch, namely Fruh, Reissdorf, Sunner, and Geoffel being the main ones I drink most often. They just don't have that flavor.

So if I were to use a dry yeast for a kolsch or liquid even, I'd probably go with 34/70 or 2124 and ferment it in the 60s. Or maybe ferment US-05 under pressure at a lower temp.

Alright, I admit fault, at least partially. lol I had a Reissdorf on tap at Hessen Haus in Des Moines last week after an Iowa Cubs game and got a very slight, maybe, white grape ester from it. The friend I was with agreed. But it was subtle. Still, I don't think that's an absolute requisite for good Kolsch as I don't taste it in all Kolsch biers I drink.

Either way, let us know how the Novalager turns out. Maybe I'll end up trying it one of these days.

EDIT: Maybe I was looking for that flavor, I don't know. But it had been a while since I'd had that beer too. And, to me, it's the quintessential Kolsch.

 

[Dog House Brew]

Kolsch has such a stylistic taste. To me it’s by itself. Like most here, I’ve tried all the yeasts. While I don’t mind 2565, there are others I like more. I will try the Omega. I’ve been running Giga021 for the last 8 years maybe. I love 021 and will keep going until I lose it somehow.
My last batch I used High Plains Pilsner and it fantastic. Not sure why everyone wants to use non Kolsch yeast and call it a Kolsch.

 

[fluketamer]

i repitched my llalemand kolsch yesterday and i forgot to oxygenate and i pitched too warm. 73 degrees. im cooling it down a little to 60 's but would you open the FV and oxygenate now or is it too late. it seems to be lagging compared to last time.

 

[Dog House Brew]

i repitched my llalemand kolsch yesterday and i forgot to oxygenate and i pitched too warm. 73 degrees. im cooling it down a little to 60 's but would you open the FV and oxygenate now or is it too late. it seems to be lagging compared to last time.

Leave it, you’ll be fine

 

[beersk]

Kolsch has such a stylistic taste. To me it’s by itself. Like most here, I’ve tried all the yeasts. While I don’t mind 2565, there are others I like more. I will try the Omega. I’ve been running Giga021 for the last 8 years maybe. I love 021 and will keep going until I lose it somehow.
My last batch I used High Plains Pilsner and it fantastic. Not sure why everyone wants to use non Kolsch yeast and call it a Kolsch.

Fair enough. I guess it's like using a witbier yeast to make a hefeweizen. It's really just not the same. Some might be fooled but anyone with any beer tasting experience will know.
I'm kind of amazed there aren't other actual dry kolsch yeast options. Same with Irish Ale dry yeast options. I'd love to have a dry version of wyeast 1084.

 

[Dog House Brew]

Fair enough. I guess it's like using a witbier yeast to make a hefeweizen. It's really just not the same. Some might be fooled but anyone with any beer tasting experience will know.
I'm kind of amazed there aren't other actual dry kolsch yeast options. Same with Irish Ale dry yeast options. I'd love to have a dry version of wyeast 1084.

100% agree

 

[fluketamer]

so i recently had a flight that included a kolsch and i was very impressed by the fact that the kolsch tasted very true to style. not like a pilsner or light lager.

i agree the kolsch is in the yeast otherwise its really just a cold conditioned pseudolager. or lager grain and hops with an ordinary ale yeast . not exactly the same.

but i definately think that most people wouldnt bea ble to tell the diference if you brewed the same hops and grain with a very clean ale yeast like notty in the low 60's or if you brewed it with 34/70 and told them it was a kolsch

side by side i could definatley tell but cold in a glass by itslef i dont think i would be able to tell if it was made with ale yeast other than kolsch.

i did get more pear white grape when i fermented at 64 then when i did it at 59. i think that could give it away if it was fermented on the warm side .

 

[rtstrider]

Finally had my first real imported Kolsch a few weeks ago. It was Gaffel and I think 2565 would definitely hit the ballpark of that strain. Of course their beer was way cleaner than I've ever been able to get 2565. Hoping to find Fruh this evening to give it a go and see how it compares to WLP029. In the meantime I'm spinning up some proprietary yeast from the bank that's supposedly either a Kolsch or Altbier strain. I think it's more in the ballpark of 1007 but the history on the strain is mum so it is what it is lol Was going to do some pressurized fermentation tests and go on a tear of 2-3 repitches to see how the strain responds in a pressure environment.

 

[mac_1103]

or lager grain and hops with an ordinary ale yeast

Isn't that a cream ale?

 

[balrog]

i keep expecting to get a bigger cake with every repitch but i am always coming up with two 8 oz jars?

Yeast propogate until they have a certain # cells per degree plato, so if you make the same beer (size batch and relatively same OG) you'll always be getting about the same biomass of yeast. Throw in a billion cells or 4 billion they still go to about 5 billion and don't make more as they "know" they have the right amount adn get to work on the sugars.

I’ve been running Giga021 for the last 8 years maybe. I love 021 and will keep going until I lose it somehow.

Giga021 was the perfect ester, light white wine, Kolsch-y profile, yeast.
I miss it so.
Mine finally died after about 2 years of repitching.

Sigh.

 

[beersk]

Did someone mention this one somewhere in this thread? https://www.morebeer.com/products/c...pzn3wk3PLT28sIQ_pxdyKtWwF6c_SKvhoCtSQQAvD_BwE

Wonder what this is a repackage of? Or is Cellar Science an independent yeast producer?

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Wonder what this is a repackage of? Or is Cellar Science an independent yeast producer?

Likely this yeast from AEB: https://www.aeb-group.com/us/fermoale-german-k-15501

Edit: which is likely the same as the Apex branded Kolsch. With a quick search, I also don't see this one in packs other than 500g (like the Cellar Science one as well). https://www.hopcraftsupply.com/products/apex-cultures-kolsch-yeast-500g-brick

 

[fluketamer]

Isn't that a cream ale?

yes it is

Yeast propogate until they have a certain # cells per degree plato, so if you make the same beer (size batch and relatively same OG) you'll always be getting about the same biomass of yeast. Throw in a billion cells or 4 billion they still go to about 5 billion and don't make more as they "know" they have the right amount adn get to work on the sugars.



Giga021 was the perfect ester, light white wine, Kolsch-y profile, yeast.
I miss it so.
Mine finally died after about 2 years of repitching.

Sigh.

thanks that makes a lot of sense

Did someone mention this one somewhere in this thread? https://www.morebeer.com/products/c...pzn3wk3PLT28sIQ_pxdyKtWwF6c_SKvhoCtSQQAvD_BwE

Wonder what this is a repackage of? Or is Cellar Science an independent yeast producer?

yeah i have had my eye on that one and i like cellar science so much i was planning on getting it. but i havent seen it in small packs just the brick.

 

[AlexKay]

Just put a split batch into fermenters with Koln and M54.

Just kegged these and started lagering. This is my first time using M54, and boy does it throw a ton of sulfur. Not drinkable as green beer, but we’ll see in a couple of months.

Making another split batch now with 2565, 1007, and Omega Kolsch II.

 

[Slim M]

yes it is

thanks that makes a lot of sense

yeah i have had my eye on that one and i like cellar science so much i was planning on getting it. but i havent seen it in small packs just the brick.

Yep I brought it up at some point sometime. I believe it’s repackaged AEB yeast. I actually think its quite possible all CellarScience is repackaged AEB because they seem to have the same stuff. Have a look.

https://www.aeb-group.com/us/fermoale-german-k-15501/fermoale-german-k-05kg_703

 

[jdubdvdt]

Just kegged these and started lagering. This is my first time using M54, and boy does it throw a ton of sulfur. Not drinkable as green beer, but we’ll see in a couple of months.

Making another split batch now with 2565, 1007, and Omega Kolsch II.

Results on the split batch? What was the final result with the Koln vs M54?

I am still on the hunt for a Kolsch yeast.

 

[rtstrider]

Results on the split batch? What was the final result with the Koln vs M54?

I am still on the hunt for a Kolsch yeast.

Kolsch is a weird style to me. After trying a few from Total Wine, and having some experience with the strains, it's easy to see why opinions are split on how they should taste. Gaffel reminds me a good bit of Wyeast 2565 (white winey) where as Fruh and Reissdorf really make me think WLP029 (clean with a subtle fruit/malt hint). So at the end of the day I would offer those as a good learning tool for tastes.

 

[AlexKay]

Results on the split batch? What was the final result with the Koln vs M54?

I am still on the hunt for a Kolsch yeast.

All done, all lagering. My hope is to bring them to my local club mid-July and get other opinions, too.

That said, I’ve tasted the M54 just by itself. The sulfur seems to have cleared nicely, and I was pretty impressed with the taste. As a mostly clean, slightly estery hybrid yeast, I’m hopeful.

But I’ll post the side-by-side in a few more weeks.

 

[AlexKay]

All right, I've been slow to get back to this thread. I brought all 5 beers to my club for tasting, and had people fill out forms. Unfortunately, there were only 5 of us there that day, so it's not like I can present statistics that would mean anything. But here's a summary of the results.

Recipe and process:
45% Pilsner (Crisp Hana Heritage)
45% Vienna (Sugar Creek)
10% white wheat (Sugar Creek)
2:1 Saaz:Lubelski @ 60 and 5 minutes
1/2 pack dry yeast or full pack liquid yeast for ~1 gallon
Fermented 2 weeks at 60 F
OG 1.046, FG 1.008, 5.0% ABV
cold conditioned for ~2 months

The available "check all that apply" (CATA) descriptors were red apple, bubblegum, sulfur, green apple, clove, acid/sour, tropical fruit, pepper, neutral, banana, and alcohol.

Wyeast 2565
CATA: neutral (2), green apple, red apple, sulfur, pepper, banana, alcohol
Comments: hazy, bready, sulfur, grainy
In discussion, most of us agreed that this yeast brought malt flavors forward the most.

Omega Kolsch II
CATA: neutral (4), pepper (2), green apple, sour
Comments: bready, good German hop finish, mineral-y aroma, grainy flavor, boring

Wyeast 1007
CATA: neutral (4), red apple (3), pepper, tropical fruit, banana
Comments: not as bready, decent German hop finish, almost no aroma, very neutral flavor

Mangrove Jack M54
CATA: sulfur (4), red apple (2), green apple (2), neutral (2), pepper
Comments: flavor has slight sulfur taste in finish, clear, sulfur flavor,

Lallemand Köln
CATA: neutral (4), bubblegum, green apple, red apple, clove
Comments: honey, light diacetyl, grainy flavor, neutral flavor profile but strong aroma, don't pick up hop flavor
In discussion, many noticed some diacetyl (not me, I am blind)

Ranking as a neutral ale yeast (4 points = best, 0 = worst, from each person)
Kolsch II (15)
1007 (13)
Koln (9)
2565 (7)
M54 (6)

Ranking overall
2565 (12)
Kolsch II (10)
1007 (10)
M54 (10)
Koln (8)

Conclusions:

• While the above might suggest there were significant differences, everyone agreed that the four Kolsch yeasts produced very similar beers, with differences notable only because they were being tasted side-to-side.
• Everyone also agreed that M54 was an outlier, with notably different fermentation character (which some liked and some didn't.)
• 2565 left the beer noticeably hazy, even after 2 months cold. M54 was brilliant, distinctly clearer than the others.
• I was surprised to find that the Koln threw some diacetyl, as I'd never heard that criticism before, but (as mentioned) I am completely insensitive to it, so perhaps I wouldn't know.
• I happened to like M54 rather a bit, and will probably use it for hybrid beers such as California Common (no surprise, as this is how they brand it!) But the sulfur is notable even after extended cold conditioning, and it does not produce a typical Kolsch.

 

[IrondaleBrewing]

Thanks so much for sharing this!

 

[fluketamer]

great post .

i have brewed the same grain bill 90 /10 pilsner vienna with perle and tet with koln and 2565 a few times now. usually around 62 degrees or so.

they both make really good beers.

the koln is a little blander but clears quicker.
the 2565 is more kolschy with a very slight white grape/ pear hint. it alos brings out the malt better imo.

but if the koln was avaialble i would be using that more often because dry yeast is easier.

and they are both very close. like said above hard to tel them apart if not side by side.

they both make very clean beer.

 

[cactusgarrett]

but if the koln was avaialble i would be using that more often because dry yeast is easier.

I just placed an online order for a few sachets, so there maybe some inventory floating around still. I plan on massively overbuilding starters to bank this as best and as long as possible.

 

[fluketamer]

I just placed an online order for a few sachets, so there maybe some inventory floating around still. I plan on massively overbuilding starters to bank this as best and as long as possible.

i dont believe you. lol. proof or it didnt happen. lots of us have been looking for a few months for this yeast . its gone.

edit: i take it back somehow i see a few packs online

 

[fluketamer]

https://www.wildwesthomebrewsupply....H_M6na5bFsVgDBUANiFS0Jao8cCSmgLsCrlXrfYRlQuYC

 

[jdubdvdt]

I just placed an online order for a few sachets, so there maybe some inventory floating around still. I plan on massively overbuilding starters to bank this as best and as long as possible.

great post .

i have brewed the same grain bill 90 /10 pilsner vienna with perle and tet with koln and 2565 a few times now. usually around 62 degrees or so.

they both make really good beers.

the koln is a little blander but clears quicker.
the 2565 is more kolschy with a very slight white grape/ pear hint. it alos brings out the malt better imo.

but if the koln was avaialble i would be using that more often because dry yeast is easier.

and they are both very close. like said above hard to tel them apart if not side by side.

they both make very clean beer.

I have two sachets of koln I'll be using to put in my yeast bank. Wish they still had it... Won't be as easy as dry, but my yeast bank continues to grow.

 

[MaxStout]

If any Koln is still out there it might be close to or past its expiration. If stored in the fridge it should be ok. Or pitch 2 packets, just to be sure.

 

[rtstrider]

I have two sachets of koln I'll be using to put in my yeast bank. Wish they still had it... Won't be as easy as dry, but my yeast bank continues to grow.

I've banked up Koln. My experience is it's not that great from dried state regardless of pitching rate. The initial lag time is a good 48 to 72 hours. It does step up well after that though. It banks well and there is very similar lag time on the initial propagation step from the bank. After that though it fires off fairly quickly and isn't bad at all. I can see why Lallemand chose the strain as it's a very good liquid strain. Dried...Not so much

 

[cactusgarrett]

i dont believe you. lol. proof or it didnt happen. lots of us have been looking for a few months for this yeast . its gone.

edit: i take it back somehow i see a few packs online

https://www.swggbrew.com/product/lallemand-koln-kolsch-ale-yeast-copy/

Although, after pulling the trigger i realized, as @MaxStout said, it'll need to be stepped up from a starter anyway. Thus making it no different from a liquid pitch. At that point I realized I could have just ordered a pack of tried and true liquid from WY or WL.

 

[jdubdvdt]

I've banked up Koln. My experience is it's not that great from dried state regardless of pitching rate. The initial lag time is a good 48 to 72 hours. It does step up well after that though. It banks well and there is very similar lag time on the initial propagation step from the bank. After that though it fires off fairly quickly and isn't bad at all. I can see why Lallemand chose the strain as it's a very good liquid strain. Dried...Not so much

Good to know. I have not used it enough to really remember the difference. I took a hiatus for a few years. Speaking of, Hiatus Brewing in Ocala has a really good Kolsch style beer.

 

[Broothru]

I’ve brewed a lot of Kolsch and Helles over the years, most of them quite good yet they failed to wow the judges in comps. I’ve been to Munich and Koln many times and consumed many beers from the renowned breweries, so I have a good handle on what they should taste like.

In a just completed comp I entered one of each, still trying to capture the magic. Both recipes were my ‘old reliables’ with two minor tweaks: both were pressure fermented at 1 BAR, 65F, and I added ALDC enzyme with the yeast pitch. The Kolsch used Lallemand NovaLager hybrid dry yeast and took Best of Show. The Helles used WLP-808 Mythical Hammer hybrid lager yeast, and won Blue Ribbon in class. Both of them exceeded my expectations.

The wide temperature range of both new yeasts allows even delicate beers like Helles and Kolsch to be fermented quite warm, and don’t require pressure fermentation. Both produced excellent beers from my otherwise average recipes. The ALDC may also have contributed by eliminating any trace of diacetyl. Versatile, extremely clean and crisp, drops clear quickly with minimal Silica Gel.

I even harvested the dry Lallemand Nova-Lager and used it in a Falstaff ‘tribute’ beer, and I’ve never reused a dry yeast before. It worked great in the second fermentation. Both these yeasts are fantastic.

 

[AmarikinBrew]

I’ve brewed a lot of Kolsch and Helles over the years, most of them quite good yet they failed to wow the judges in comps. I’ve been to Munich and Koln many times and consumed many beers from the renowned breweries, so I have a good handle on what they should taste like.

In a just completed comp I entered one of each, still trying to capture the magic. Both recipes were my ‘old reliables’ with two minor tweaks: both were pressure fermented at 1 BAR, 65F, and I added ALDC enzyme with the yeast pitch. The Kolsch used Lallemand NovaLager hybrid dry yeast and took Best of Show. The Helles used WLP-808 Mythical Hammer hybrid lager yeast, and won Blue Ribbon in class. Both of them exceeded my expectations.

The wide temperature range of both new yeasts allows even delicate beers like Helles and Kolsch to be fermented quite warm, and don’t require pressure fermentation. Both produced excellent beers from my otherwise average recipes. The ALDC may also have contributed by eliminating any trace of diacetyl. Versatile, extremely clean and crisp, drops clear quickly with minimal Silica Gel.

I even harvested the dry Lallemand Nova-Lager and used it in a Falstaff ‘tribute’ beer, and I’ve never reused a dry yeast before. It worked great in the second fermentation. Both these yeasts are fantastic.

Falstaff ‘tribute’ beer?

 

[Broothru]

Falstaff ‘tribute’ beer?

Yeah, Standard American Beer is the BJCP category. Typical of beers brewed by the German emigres who replicated Continental lagers with indigenous North American ingredients, like 6-row barley, corn or rice adjuncts, Nugget and Cluster hops.

Beers like Schlitz, Busch, Miller, Hamm’s. The recipe was an adaptation of a “Can You Brew It” clone of Falstaff, just like my Dad used to drink on the weekends when I was growing up in the 50s and 60s. It turned out great: crisp, clear, clean, crushable.

Had a good time designing it, enjoyed brewing it, love drinking it. ‘Tribute’ beer.

 

[fluketamer]

update on this yeast. i dont freeze yeast. when i harvest i simply pour all or most of the cake into mason jars with a little beer on top . sometimes diluted beer if i have to add a little water to loosen it up.

i had 4 oz of slurry that was almost 2 months old. i pitched this into 1 gallon of wort alongside 5 gallons of wort with 2565.
after 3 weeks at 62 degrees the lallemand finished quicker and cleared much quicker and is basically ready to drink. it did have almost one day lag tho.

it is definately less kolsch flavored than the 2565 but it is super clean and a very neutral flavored yeast.

it is the cleanest dry yeast i have tried. it is cleaner than bry 97 and o5/o4 and nottingham.

it is ashame that they discontinued this yeast.

 

[AmarikinBrew]

Yeah, Standard American Beer is the BJCP category. Typical of beers brewed by the German emigres who replicated Continental lagers with indigenous North American ingredients, like 6-row barley, corn or rice adjuncts, Nugget and Cluster hops.

Beers like Schlitz, Busch, Miller, Hamm’s. The recipe was an adaptation of a “Can You Brew It” clone of Falstaff, just like my Dad used to drink on the weekends when I was growing up in the 50s and 60s. It turned out great: crisp, clear, clean, crushable.

Had a good time designing it, enjoyed brewing it, love drinking it. ‘Tribute’ beer.

Wasn't aware "Can You Brew It" did Falstaff clone. Have to find that! It's the 1st beer I stole from my Dad as a kid, so it's en"grained" in my memory.

 

[Broothru]

Wasn't aware "Can You Brew It" did Falstaff clone. Have to find that! It's the 1st beer I stole from my Dad as a kid, so it's en"grained" in my memory.

Let me dig out the brew sheet and post the recipe. It really was a nice one.

 

[wdavis2003]

Give Omega Kolsch II a try. Best Kolsch yeast I've used to date, and I've tried every one I can get my hands on: WL029, Wyeast 2565, K97, Lallemand Koln, and Imperial Dieter. Omega II is great as you can ferment warmer, and it drops fairly quickly. Drops even faster with Biofine.

I've made almost 70 batches of Kolsch, and the Omega strain has been my favorite. I ferment for 14 days at 66F and then package.

Good to hear as I just pitched this on Friday. Currently at 65. Guess I'll leave it there for 14 days!

 

[Broothru]

Let me dig out the brew sheet and post the recipe. It really was a nice one.

Falstaff Tribute 7/3/2024
American Lager – 1B American Standard Beer
All grain, Batch 6.5 gal., Mash Efficiency 80.6%, 75 minute boil

Water profile: Ca: 26, Mg: 6, Na: 22, Cl: 19, SO4: 18, HCO3: 43

4# Pale Ale malt (Briess, 3.5 SRM) 37.2%
3# 6-row Pale malt (Rahr, 2.0 SRM) 27.9%
2# Flaked maize (1.3 SRM) 18.6%
1# Flaked rice (1.0 SRM) 9.3%
8.0 oz Acidulated malt (1.8 SRM) 4.7%
4.0 oz Victory malt (Briess, 25.0 SRM) 2.3%

0.25 oz Nugget 10.1% AA :60 minutes 6.9 IBU
0.50 oz Cluster 6.2% AA :15 minutes 5.7 IBU
0.50 oz Cluster 6.2% AA :20 steep/WP 0.6 IBU
1.00 oz Liberty 2.4% AA :20 steep/WP 0.4 IBU

After boil and chill, transfer to fermenter @ 61F/16C, pitch 1 sachet (11gr) Lallemand NovaLager hybrid yeast, plus ~2ml ALDC enzyme. Pressurize to ~6 psig., attach spunding valve set to 1 ATM/14.7 psig. Vigorous fermentation after 20 hours indicated in spunding cup. Final gravity reached in 4 days. Raised temperature to 73F for D-rest for 2 days, then cold crashed to 38F for 2 days, transferred under pressure to serving keg pre-dosed with 5ml SilicaFine.

O.G. 1.048 SG/11.8P
F.G. 1.012 SG/3.1P
AVB 4.7%
IBU 13.6
SRM 3.8

Won 1st Place in Category for American Standard Beer. Glass has a lot of condensation that masks its clarity, but it drinks really smooth either way.