is there a real substitute for llalemand kolsch yeast

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fluketamer

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hi all,

i used llalemand kolsch yeast for the first time last month and was really surpirsed at the result. i have never had a ale yeast taste so clean . notty is close but not the same.

i repitched it and its now going in another kolsch but i am afraid i wont get more than another few repitches out of this culture.

does anyone know of a true dry substitute for llalemand kolsch. like maybe some other company is repackaging it ala cellarscience or MJ. i have heard k97 isnt the same as llalemand and wont give you the same results. any other suggestions on a dry kolsch yeast available in the US.


i have 2565 and am saving it for when my lallemand strian gives out. but i am afraid it wont taste the same.

thanks
 
M54 should be a very clean ale yeast (despite the name), but I have no experience with it. K-97 is very different and I hate it with a passion because of the snow globe effect. M84 is also a very clean ale yeast despite the name. It gives very malty impressions though, similar to S-189 (but that is a true lager yeast).
 
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I also will miss Lalbrew Koln, as it's being discontinued, or has been already. 2565 is, arguably, the closest to real Kolsch. K-97 leaves a tartness I don't care for, and others have mentioned similar experiences.

It's not really Kolsch, but have you tried Notty at low ferm temps, like upper 50s-low 60s? At the low end of its range it ferments very clean.
 
MaxStout said:
I also will miss Lalbrew Koln, as it's being discontinued, or has been already. 2565 is, arguably, the closest to real Kolsch. K-97 leaves a tartness I don't care for, and others have mentioned similar experiences.

It's not really Kolsch, but have you tried Notty at low ferm temps, like upper 50s-low 60s? At the low end of its range it ferments very clean.
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yes notty is the cleanest ale yeast i have used but still not as crisp and clean as the koln. theres some ester in notty that i dont care for. almost flowery but very sublte. i have used notty in stouts with really good results.



i am hoping 2565 taste similar to my koln.
 
thanks dmt. yeah maybe it’s peach i am detecting. fortunately ill have enough in the pipeline to let it clear
 
Give Omega Kolsch II a try. Best Kolsch yeast I've used to date, and I've tried every one I can get my hands on: WL029, Wyeast 2565, K97, Lallemand Koln, and Imperial Dieter. Omega II is great as you can ferment warmer, and it drops fairly quickly. Drops even faster with Biofine.

I've made almost 70 batches of Kolsch, and the Omega strain has been my favorite. I ferment for 14 days at 66F and then package.
 
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MaxStout said:
I also will miss Lalbrew Koln, as it's being discontinued, or has been already. 2565 is, arguably, the closest to real Kolsch. K-97 leaves a tartness I don't care for, and others have mentioned similar experiences.

It's not really Kolsch, but have you tried Notty at low ferm temps, like upper 50s-low 60s? At the low end of its range it ferments very clean.
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The problem with 2565 is the white grape ester it creates. I have not once tasted that in any commercial German kolsch, namely Fruh, Reissdorf, Sunner, and Geoffel being the main ones I drink most often. They just don't have that flavor.

So if I were to use a dry yeast for a kolsch or liquid even, I'd probably go with 34/70 or 2124 and ferment it in the 60s. Or maybe ferment US-05 under pressure at a lower temp.
 
beersk said:
The problem with 2565 is the white grape ester it creates. I have not once tasted that in any commercial German kolsch, namely Fruh, Reissdorf, Sunner, and Geoffel being the main ones I drink most often. They just don't have that flavor.

So if I were to use a dry yeast for a kolsch or liquid even, I'd probably go with 34/70 or 2124 and ferment it in the 60s. Or maybe ferment US-05 under pressure at a lower temp.
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34/70, 2124 and US05 won't get you close to any commercial Kolsch, either. The closest I've found has been Omega Kolsch 2. It's the closest to the same ballpark flavor as Gaffel. All German ingredients make a HUGE difference too. Regular Weyermann Pilsner is too lemony for the style. I've tried Avangard and Best Malz too. I've been lucky enough to get some German malt from a commercial brewery near me that has imported some slightly darker, earthier/crackery-flavor Pilsner from a 6th generation maltster, and it's made a huge difference in the authentic Kolsch flavor, for me.

*I'm no expert. Just reporting my own findings from all the batches I've made in the last 6 years. I'm chasing the Kolsch rainbow!
 
wepeeler said:
34/70, 2124 and US05 won't get you close to any commercial Kolsch, either. The closest I've found has been Omega Kolsch 2. It's the closest to the same ballpark flavor as Gaffel. All German ingredients make a HUGE difference too. Regular Weyermann Pilsner is too lemony for the style. I've tried Avangard and Best Malz too. I've been lucky enough to get some German malt from a commercial brewery near me that has imported some slightly darker, earthier/crackery-flavor Pilsner from a 6th generation maltster, and it's made a huge difference in the authentic Kolsch flavor, for me.

*I'm no expert. Just reporting my own findings from all the batches I've made in the last 6 years. I'm chasing the Kolsch rainbow!
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I guess I should've added 1007 to my liquid strains. But this is mainly about dry yeast strains, so 2565 or 1007 are out in that case.

I just don't think the white grape ester is what I want in a kolsch, mainly because it's just not in those classic German kolschbiers. Any good clean ale yeast should do really. As long as it's CLEAR, don't use wheat (where did this come from???), and use good German malt and hops, it'll be as close as you can get and produce a good beer.
 
beersk said:
I guess I should've added 1007 to my liquid strains. But this is mainly about dry yeast strains, so 2565 or 1007 are out in that case.

I just don't think the white grape ester is what I want in a kolsch, mainly because it's just not in those classic German kolschbiers. Any good clean ale yeast should do really. As long as it's CLEAR, don't use wheat (where did this come from???), and use good German malt and hops, it'll be as close as you can get and produce a good beer.
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Omega 2 has zero white grape esters, even fermented on the warmer side. I go 66F all the way through. I got those with K-97 (tartness too) and 2565. I haven't had good luck with 1007 for anything, so I can't comment on that yeast. As for 34/70 and 2124, you're going to get a lager with non-Kolsch flavors, and US05 will produce a blond ale. I know "they" claim that Kolsch is a lagered ale (hybrid, blah blah), it doesn't have the same snap/crispness as a true lager. It's close, but there are subtle differences. Even with identical OG/FGs, a beer made with 34/70 and a Kolsch yeast are different. It's definitely more malt-forward. Technically supposed to use a German ale yeast, like WL029. Comparable, but not identical end product.

I just don't know of any dry yeast that produces a real Kolsch-like beer. You have to go liquid to get close.

Definitely no wheat!
 
I've had great success with 1007 and 2565, I pitch 2 L starter on a 1.044 wort at 55* and let rise to 58* over 3 days then to 62* for 5 days then 68* until krausen falls. Never any grape! They lager at 33* for at least 4 weeks under CO2.
 
hottpeper13 said:
I've had great success with 1007 and 2565, I pitch 2 L starter on a 1.044 wort at 55* and let rise to 58* over 3 days then to 62* for 5 days then 68* until krausen falls. Never any grape! They lager at 33* for at least 4 weeks under CO2.
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Why all the hate for the grape? I like the grape! The grape esters aren't from the yeast, they are from Weyermann pilsner malt. I have gotten them from all the beers I have brewed with it, kolsch, pilsner, Maibock, you name it! And really, it is a very pleasant taste/aroma. By the way, I used to get lemon from Lalbrew Koln, and I like that too.
 
Interesting. I go through two sacks of Weyermann Pilsner every year and the only time I ever think "grape" is when it's in a Kolsch brewed with 2565 🤷‍♂️

Cheers!
 
Franktalk said:
Why all the hate for the grape? I like the grape! The grape esters aren't from the yeast, they are from Weyermann pilsner malt. I have gotten them from all the beers I have brewed with it, kolsch, pilsner, Maibock, you name it! And really, it is a very pleasant taste/aroma. By the way, I used to get lemon from Lalbrew Koln, and I like that too.
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Weyermann Pilsner for me is very lemon/lemongrass. Even in the mash. I feel like yeast makes the grape/white wine esters that people are getting more than the malt.
 
Is there any reason why Lallemand Koln yeast can't be reproduced by making a starter and banking it? I know it's not recommended to make a starter with dry yeast but I still have a couple packets of Koln yeast left and I could try making a large starter and reproducing it. I did an experiment doing this with an expired pack of Cellar Science German. I made a 2 liter starter and separated it into 4 portions and put them into 16 oz mason jars in the refrigerator. A few months later I took out one of the jars and made another starter and used it on a Paulaner Munich clone. It worked just fine.

DMF
 
Draft Master Flash said:
Is there any reason why Lallemand Koln yeast can't be reproduced by making a starter and banking it?
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This seems like a perfectly reasonable situation to make a starter with dry yeast.

I'm in a similar situation with a couple of sachets of London. I was thinking about using a partial sachet of dry yeast to make a "properly sized" starter for each batch (rather than a big starter using the entire sachet). I've never had problems with storing open sachets (closed tightly in the fridge). I'll probably run some test batches with some value priced US-05.


eta: for brands of yeast where the supplier is OK with re-pitching, it should also be "OK" to make a starter. In both cases, treat it as a "wet" yeast.

If the supplier recommends not re-pitching or not making a starter, take the time to understand why (does it have added ingredients (like enzymes)? Is is a blend of yeast strains? ...) and make an informed decision as to whether or not to follow their recommendation.
 
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Lately I've been using Novalager on my Kolsch recipes. Although it doesn't taste like a true Kolsch you would get in Cologne, it produces a very good beer and because of numerous requests I have continued to brew it over again. It seems like it has a slight blueberry like ester. For some reason it tastes really good in the Kolsch recipe I use.

I seriously can't really call it a Kolsch though but then again I don't call anything a Kolsch unless it's actually brewed in Cologne.


DMF.
 
BrewnWKopperKat said:
This seems like a perfectly reasonable situation to make a starter with dry yeast.

I'm in a similar situation with a couple of sachets of London. I was thinking about using a partial sachet of dry yeast to make a "properly sized" starter for each batch (rather than a big starter using the entire sachet). I've never had problems with storing open sachets (closed tightly in the fridge). I'll probably run some test batches with some value priced US-05.
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Usually when I split dry packets I will store the unused portion in a 10 gram cosmetic jar in the refrigerator. Never had a problem doing this.

DMF
 
Draft Master Flash said:
Is there any reason why Lallemand Koln yeast can't be reproduced by making a starter and banking it? I know it's not recommended to make a starter with dry yeast but I still have a couple packets of Koln yeast left and I could try making a large starter and reproducing it. I did an experiment doing this with an expired pack of Cellar Science German. I made a 2 liter starter and separated it into 4 portions and put them into 16 oz mason jars in the refrigerator. A few months later I took out one of the jars and made another starter and used it on a Paulaner Munich clone. It worked just fine.

DMF
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That's entirely fine. Phil Markowski, the lead brewer at Two Roads in CT, and professor at the new Brewing program at Sacred Heart University in CT teaches his students to make starters with every yeast, even dry. I have a few friends in our brew club that graduated from there and they said he preached making starters with everything and pitching them while active.
 
wepeeler said:
Phil Markowski, the lead brewer at Two Roads in CT, and professor at the new Brewing program at Sacred Heart University in CT teaches his students to make starters with every yeast, even dry. I have a few friends in our brew club that graduated from there and they said he preached making starters with everything and pitching them while active.
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Does he publicly share the details of his process? If so, that process information could be useful to those who aspire to "brew like the pros brew" (nothing wrong with that).

Within the context of brewing at home, and for most recipes, making a starter is generally unnecessary work.
 
wepeeler said:
That's entirely fine. Phil Markowski, the lead brewer at Two Roads in CT, and professor at the new Brewing program at Sacred Heart University in CT teaches his students to make starters with every yeast, even dry. I have a few friends in our brew club that graduated from there and they said he preached making starters with everything and pitching them while active.
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I agree, I've never had any bad results from making a starter from dry yeast. The only cons I can think of is whether or not it's worth it cost wise after you factor in the cost of DME and the time spent because dry yeast can usually be bought pretty cheap. And also you will need to oxygenate the wort to some degree which you wouldn't normally need to do with dry yeast but then again I think that's part of the fun of it!

DMF
 
Draft Master Flash said:
Is there any reason why Lallemand Koln yeast can't be reproduced by making a starter and banking it? I know it's not recommended to make a starter with dry yeast but I still have a couple packets of Koln yeast left and I could try making a large starter and reproducing it. I did an experiment doing this with an expired pack of Cellar Science German. I made a 2 liter starter and separated it into 4 portions and put them into 16 oz mason jars in the refrigerator. A few months later I took out one of the jars and made another starter and used it on a Paulaner Munich clone. It worked just fine.

DMF
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It banks just fine. I have quite a bit banked up. Just pitch it dry into 2L 1.040 wort and give it 4-5 days or so to ferment out. Pitching rate doesn't make a difference on the initial lag time. You'll get the same lag time right out of the freezer bank but it steps up just fine after the first step. I do a 3 step starter when building up from the bank and have full krausen with this strain in 14-17 hours after tossing in the fermenter. I'd highly recommend making a starter with this strain prior to pitching it into the fermenter.
 
BrewnWKopperKat said:
Does he publicly share the details of his process? If so, that process information could be useful to those who aspire to "brew like the pros brew" (nothing wrong with that).

Within the context of brewing at home, and for most recipes, making a starter is generally unnecessary work.
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I haven't spoken with him directly. Only reporting what his students have told me.

Making a starter can only help, so why wouldn't you want to do it? Except for maybe time? I don't even boil anymore. I've used Poland Spring water, mix some dme, pitch yeast, and harvest for future batches. I recently installed an RO filter under my sink, and now I just use that. I can make a starter in 15-20 min to ensure my yeast is healthy and ready to ferment!
 
rtstrider said:
It banks just fine. I have quite a bit banked up. Just pitch it dry into 2L 1.040 wort and give it 4-5 days or so to ferment out. Pitching rate doesn't make a difference on the initial lag time. You'll get the same lag time right out of the freezer bank but it steps up just fine after the first step. I do a 3 step starter when building up from the bank and have full krausen with this strain in 14-17 hours after tossing in the fermenter. I'd highly recommend making a starter with this strain prior to pitching it into the fermenter.
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Good to hear! So for now those who really want the discontinued Lallemand Koln this may be the way to go. I'll definitely be considering doing this the next time I decide to use it on a Kolsch recipe.

DMF
 
i repitched the whole cake (trub, hops, dead cells, a little beer etc) from the first kolsch into my latest one and got a cleaner tasting kolsch with absolutely no off flavors. it went to 81%!!! attenuation. for abv of 5.2 abv
it dropped much better than the initial pitch and is crystal clear. the repitched slurry worked better than just the one pack of dry yeast.

i initially only pitched one pack and fermented at 59 degrees. it had a long lag time but then worked very well . maybe the repitched slurry worked better because of cell count.

i again have the whole cake from my second kolsch now split into two 8 oz mason jars in the kegerator at 38 degrees. (taking serious offers only, and it will go to the highest bidder. lol )

i usually just throw both of them into the next batch except for some of the really compacted sludge at the bottom of the jars which i assume is dead cells and trub . thats what i did last time . but now that this is unobtainium, i am thinking of just using one and maybe freezing the other.

how come i cant make something out of nothing. i want more of these jars. i keep expecting to get a bigger cake with every repitch but i am always coming up with two 8 oz jars?

can i grow up this yeast without flasks and stir plate and feeding? can i just pitch each jar into 2 liters of wort and expect to get more yeast or that wont work?


thanks
 
dmtaylor said:
Thank you! Please let us know the differences!
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Can do. The Koln will probably take at least a month to clear, so I’ll try to report back in early June.

I don’t have the most sensitive palate. I’m hoping to bring them to a club meeting to get a few viewpoints.

If I have time, I’ll do a duplicate batch and split that one between 2565 and Kolsch II. Or maybe 1007? Depends what I can get my hands on…
 
HM-2 said:
I had no idea they were discontinuing Koln- very disappointing as its my NEIPA house yeast.
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Not going to speak for Lallemand but will say this strain was very inconsistent. From dry state lag time was awful regardless of pitch rate. Another member, along with myself, experienced phenols from this strain in it's early days as well. I wrote Lallemand on it and the sent some packs of Koln. I tested pitching a whole pack into I think it was 1L 1.020 wort (will have to go back and look through the forums) and it still took around 3-4 days to start working with the full yeast pack. I then stepped it up to 2L 1.040 and banked it up. I can see why they chose this yeast though because from liquid state this takes off like gangbusters. I'm talking full krausen at 15-17 hours instead of 2-3 days. This is also a really good/clean kolsch strain. It just doesn't perform consistently is what the consensus has been from discussions both on, and off, the forums.
 
Draft Master Flash said:
Lately I've been using Novalager on my Kolsch recipes. Although it doesn't taste like a true Kolsch you would get in Cologne, it produces a very good beer and because of numerous requests I have continued to brew it over again. It seems like it has a slight blueberry like ester. For some reason it tastes really good in the Kolsch recipe I use.

I seriously can't really call it a Kolsch though but then again I don't call anything a Kolsch unless it's actually brewed in Cologne.


DMF.
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Thanks for sharing this -- I'm doing a Kolsch this weekend and was planning on using NovaLager so it's great to know you've had good results with it!
 
IrondaleBrewing said:
Thanks for sharing this -- I'm doing a Kolsch this weekend and was planning on using NovaLager so it's great to know you've had good results with it!
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I do believe Novalager would make a decent koslch strain. Now I will say short of filtering this strain takes about a month of cold conditioning to hit it's stride. I was not a fan of this strain right out of the gate, but, after a month of conditioning in the keg I could see where it could make a nice lite american ale or even an american kolsch strain. Think budweiser yeast but more apple and and less crispness and that's the best way I know to describe this strain.
 
rtstrider said:
I do believe Novalager would make a decent koslch strain. Now I will say short of filtering this strain takes about a month of cold conditioning to hit it's stride. I was not a fan of this strain right out of the gate, but, after a month of conditioning in the keg I could see where it could make a nice lite american ale or even an american kolsch strain. Think budweiser yeast but more apple and and less crispness and that's the best way I know to describe this strain.
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Excellent, thanks! I'm planning on fermenting at 60F and conditioning for four weeks so that's great to know. Apparently NovaLager can hit FG pretty quickly but I'll probably let it go for a full two weeks so as not to rush anything. I appreciate the additional info!
 

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