Is 3711/Belle Saison a Contaminant?

[ba-brewer]

Thanks @bleme

 

[Shenanigans]

Biofilm won't protect it from heat. I've always used my dishwasher or boiling water.
http://howtobrew.com/book/section-1/brewing-preperations/sanitation/sanitizing-your-equipment

Thanks.

That’s where I got the concentration of 1 tbl spoon to a gallon for the bleach solution.

Does that still apply here or should the concentration be increased?
I'm thinking of filling up a 120L barrel with water and dumping everything in there a letting it soak over night.
Glass shouldn't be affected but since the solution will already be there I'll also put all my bottles in after I have sanitized my plastic equipment.

 

[Miraculix]

Thanks.

That’s where I got the concentration of 1 tbl spoon to a gallon for the bleach solution.

Does that still apply here or should the concentration be increased?
I'm thinking of filling up a 120L barrel with water and dumping everything in there a letting it soak over night.
Glass shouldn't be affected but since the solution will already be there I'll also put all my bottles in after I have sanitized my plastic equipment.

I would probably do the same. Just dump a whole bottle of bleach in there, let it stand for one or two hours and then rinse it very well afterwards.

Overkill but surely works

And wear gloves!

 

[specharka]

Thanks.

That’s where I got the concentration of 1 tbl spoon to a gallon for the bleach solution.

Does that still apply here or should the concentration be increased?
I'm thinking of filling up a 120L barrel with water and dumping everything in there a letting it soak over night.
Glass shouldn't be affected but since the solution will already be there I'll also put all my bottles in after I have sanitized my plastic equipment.

I use that concentration to rid my equipment of Brettanomyces and it appears to work well. I don’t know if Saccharomyces var diastaticus is more robust but I haven’t experienced cross-contamination yet between Brett and Sacc-only beers fermented in the same glass carboys using this method.

I would recommend using a separate set of plastic gear for your Saccharomyces var diastaticus beers — it can be extremely difficult to effectively sterilize plastic tubing, racking canes, etc without damaging them or introducing unwanted leak paths.

 

[Shenanigans]

I use that concentration to rid my equipment of Brettanomyces and it appears to work well. I don’t know if Saccharomyces var diastaticus is more robust but I haven’t experienced cross-contamination yet between Brett and Sacc-only beers fermented in the same glass carboys using this method.

I would recommend using a separate set of plastic gear for your Saccharomyces var diastaticus beers — it can be extremely difficult to effectively sterilize plastic tubing, racking canes, etc without damaging them or introducing unwanted leak paths.

Great thanks for the reply.
I will use this method as a once off and just stick to Saccharomyces for now.
I have so many beers on my to do list that I can easily wait for a while before I decide if I will brew with the last pack of Belle Saison I have or not. Think that pack has a best before date of end of 2019.

 

[CodeSection]

Was planning on brewing a 10 gallon batch of Mobcraft's Change of Saisons. Below is the recipe. After reading everything on this thread along with Wyeast Labs's warnings, as a newbie, I do not want to entertain using this yeast. What yeast would you substitute to avoid the contaminants mentioned in this thread and doesn't carry the STA1 gene?

Recipe Details
Scaled down so you can brew your own 5 gallon batch
Special ingredients

• 1 gram black peppercorns
• 1 gram green peppercorns

Yeast

• Wyeast Labs 3711

Malt bill

• 7.00 lbs Pilsner (2 Row) Bel,
• 0.30 lbs Wheat, Torrified,
• 0.57 lbs Rye, Flaked,
• 1.13 lbs Rye Malt,
• 1.00 lbs Munich Malt - 20L.

Boil time

• 60 mins

Hop regimen

• 1.0 oz EK Goldings @ 60 mins
• 1.5 oz EK Goldings @ 5 mins
• 1.5 oz Styrian Goldings @ 5 mins
• 0.5 oz EK Goldings Whirlpool for 15 mins
• 0.5 oz Styrian Goldings Whirlpool for 15 mins

Gravity

• 1.053/1.008

IBU

• 37

ABV

• 5-5.5%

 

[RPh_Guy]

What yeast would you substitute to avoid the contaminants mentioned in this thread and doesn't carry the STA1 gene?

Saison yeasts are characterized by high attenuation. If you're worried about it, brew something that's not a saison.

 

[Shenanigans]

Saison yeasts are characterized by high attenuation. If you're worried about it, brew something that's not a saison.

I have only ever used Belle Saison and MJ M29 so I'm not an expert on the Saison strains.
However if I understand correctly only certain strain have been identified as being a "problem" so CodeSection still go ahead and brew a Saison and avoid any potential issues if uses one of these strains and follows normal acceptable sanitation practices .

BTW anyone actually know if MJ M29 is include in the suspects?

 

[RPh_Guy]

However if I understand correctly only certain strain have been identified as being a "problem" so CodeSection still go ahead and brew a Saison and avoid any potential issues if uses one of these strains

AFAIK all saison strains are diastaticus var. ...., which you need to make a saison.

Labeling something as a "contaminant" depends on whether you want it there or not. So, whether they're a problem depends on your sanitation practices. Belle forms a biofilm so it's much more risky, but it's a very popular strain so I'm thinking it must not be that bad.

Personally I wouldn't worry about using any of them because I know my cleaning and sanitation process is adequate.

 

[Dog House Brew]

Why not just use iodophor and move on from there. I’ve brewed many Saison w all the different yeasts. I’ve never had any contamination’s issues using the same plastic fermenters for other beers. Clean and sanitize correctly and all should be good.

 

[Shenanigans]

AFAIK all saison strains are diastaticus var. ...., which you need to make a saison.

Labeling something as a "contaminant" depends on whether you want it there or not. So, whether they're a problem depends on your sanitation practices. Belle forms a biofilm so it's much more risky, but it's a very popular strain so I'm thinking it must not be that bad.

Personally I wouldn't worry about using any of them because I know my cleaning and sanitation process is adequate.

OK fair point.
As with a lot of homebrew topics there seems to be a divided opinion on this.

On a side note on Monday I did a gravity check on an Oat Pale ale after 9 days in the fermenter and it went from 1.048 to 1.004 with London III 1318 91% attenuation
Mashed at 154 for 60 min and fermented at a constant 68F.
It was a 3rd generation of the yeast but I can't imagine that it would have changed that much.
Of course it can have many reasons but could also be an indication that I have a diastaticus var issue.

 

[CodeSection]

I might use Wyeast 3522 or WLP550 instead. From what I have read, neither has the STA1 gene.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I might use Wyeast 3522 or WLP550 instead. From what I have read, neither has the STA1 gene.

3522 looks fine, just a POF+ ale yeast.
550 looks highly attenuative, about the same risk as a saison strain.

1.048 to 1.004 with London III 1318 91% attenuation
Mashed at 154 for 60 min and fermented at a constant 68F.
It was a 3rd generation of the yeast but I can't imagine that it would have changed that much.

I agree with your assessment. Repitching absolutely increases risk of contamination.

 

[CodeSection]

@RPh_Guy , thanks for your input. I tried Googling to read about POF+ ? I found "The POF gene codes for the enzyme ferulic acid decarboxylase. As the name implies, the enzyme catalyses a reaction in which a carboxyl group is removed from ferulic acid, leaving 4-vinyl guaiacol (4VG)."

So, in basic terms, what does it mean?

 

[RPh_Guy]

POF = Phenolic Off Flavor.

A POF+(positive) yeast produces phenols. Spiciness, pepper, smoky, clove, etc. Most/all belgian and saison strains and weizen strains are POF+, as well as the vast majority of wild yeast.

4VG is a phenolic precursor. You can increase it in your wort using an acid rest.

Other brewing yeasts were selected because they are POF- (negative).

 

[CodeSection]

@RPh_Guy , thanks again for the explanation!

 

[BandonBrewingCo]

I haven't gotten around to testing starsan yet but hope to get some students in a microbiology course next quarter to look at its effectiveness against yeast and bacteria I've isolated over the years.

Any update xico?

 

[mac_1103]

Any update xico?

 

[Shenanigans]

OK fair point.
As with a lot of homebrew topics there seems to be a divided opinion on this.

On a side note on Monday I did a gravity check on an Oat Pale ale after 9 days in the fermenter and it went from 1.048 to 1.004 with London III 1318 91% attenuation
Mashed at 154 for 60 min and fermented at a constant 68F.
It was a 3rd generation of the yeast but I can't imagine that it would have changed that much.
Of course it can have many reasons but could also be an indication that I have a diastaticus var issue.

Well now that the thread has been bumped I might as well give feedback on my issue.
After getting gushers on several batches I concluded I had a diastaticus var infection from a few Belle Saison beers I brewed previously.
I only got rid of it by soaking everything in a mild bleach solution for 24 hours.
At that time I was only using oxi-clean but have been using Star-San or other similar sanitisers since.
I never used Belle Saison again but have used other disastaticus var positive strains without any issues.