Is 3711/Belle Saison a Contaminant?

[Smellyglove]

So how long does it take for those diastatic strains to reach final gravity? Do they chew on the long carbohydrates for months after botteling so that you might have an unpleasant surprise after three months?

Yes. That's a common issue. You measure a "stable" FG, bottle, and it just keeps chewing away slowly if there's enough starches left.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

Any updates @xico?

 

[Jayjay1976]

So how long does it take for those diastatic strains to reach final gravity? Do they chew on the long carbohydrates for months after botteling so that you might have an unpleasant surprise after three months?

In my experience with 3711, it seem to march pretty steadily toward the FG; so long as you establish that FG has truly been reached by observing 3 identical gravity measurements spaced 3-5 days apart, you should not be concerned about bottle bombs.

 

[thehaze]

I've used BE-134 from Fermentis and it reached FG in 13 days. It went from 1.070 to 1.007 ( 89% AA and 8.2% ABV! ) and 30 days after bottling, I had no gushers or exploding bottles. The yeast itself was bland tasting. Definitely not Dupont quality.

 

[xico]

Interesting about the Belle Saison, I was under the impression it was the same strain but I can't find information about 3711 producing a biofilm. I can run them in a couple experiments to see if they are the same or different and let you know.

 

[SoCal-Doug]

Testing positive for STA1 does not guarantee that it will exhibit adverse or negative behaviors. Home and commercial brewers have used 3711 (and many other strains) for many years without it creating bottle bombs beyond the standard fermentation period. There is a specific note on WL's website for 566 and testing positive for the STA1 gene. I've used it (as well as 3711 and others) at least 25 times each, and never had an issue, and loved the results.

The answer is simple. Know what you are doing. Know what you are dealing with. Practice good hygiene. You can successfully make malt vinegar easier than being victimized by STA1.

 

[Shenanigans]

Just found this thread now and think I might be affected by this.
well its a possibility anyway. I get a lot of over carbed beers in the bottle and have tried all the tricks.
Let ferment longer, increase the temperature to finish it off, use less sugar for conditioning.
I have used Belle Saison 3 times.

I don't want to have to buy all new equipment but I'd like to see if additional sanitation makes a difference.
If I was to soak everything in a bleach solution for 24 hours what concentration should I use?
The normal 1 table spoon to 1 gallon water concentration or would I need to be more heavy handed?

Thanks

 

[bleme]

Bleach, heat and iodopher are all more effective against yeasts than StarSan is. If you're really worried, you could do all 3, just not at the same time...

 

[ba-brewer]

Bleach, heat and iodopher are all more effective against yeasts than StarSan is. If you're really worried, you could do all 3, just not at the same time...

How much heat and for how long?

I seen someone post if the yeast leaves a bio-film then you also need to physically scrub it too.

 

[bleme]

How much heat and for how long?

I seen someone post if the yeast leaves a bio-film then you also need to physically scrub it too.

Biofilm won't protect it from heat. I've always used my dishwasher or boiling water.
http://howtobrew.com/book/section-1/brewing-preperations/sanitation/sanitizing-your-equipment

 

[ba-brewer]

Thanks @bleme

 

[Shenanigans]

Biofilm won't protect it from heat. I've always used my dishwasher or boiling water.
http://howtobrew.com/book/section-1/brewing-preperations/sanitation/sanitizing-your-equipment

Thanks.

That’s where I got the concentration of 1 tbl spoon to a gallon for the bleach solution.

Does that still apply here or should the concentration be increased?
I'm thinking of filling up a 120L barrel with water and dumping everything in there a letting it soak over night.
Glass shouldn't be affected but since the solution will already be there I'll also put all my bottles in after I have sanitized my plastic equipment.

 

[Miraculix]

Thanks.

That’s where I got the concentration of 1 tbl spoon to a gallon for the bleach solution.

Does that still apply here or should the concentration be increased?
I'm thinking of filling up a 120L barrel with water and dumping everything in there a letting it soak over night.
Glass shouldn't be affected but since the solution will already be there I'll also put all my bottles in after I have sanitized my plastic equipment.

I would probably do the same. Just dump a whole bottle of bleach in there, let it stand for one or two hours and then rinse it very well afterwards.

Overkill but surely works

And wear gloves!

 

[specharka]

Thanks.

That’s where I got the concentration of 1 tbl spoon to a gallon for the bleach solution.

Does that still apply here or should the concentration be increased?
I'm thinking of filling up a 120L barrel with water and dumping everything in there a letting it soak over night.
Glass shouldn't be affected but since the solution will already be there I'll also put all my bottles in after I have sanitized my plastic equipment.

I use that concentration to rid my equipment of Brettanomyces and it appears to work well. I don’t know if Saccharomyces var diastaticus is more robust but I haven’t experienced cross-contamination yet between Brett and Sacc-only beers fermented in the same glass carboys using this method.

I would recommend using a separate set of plastic gear for your Saccharomyces var diastaticus beers — it can be extremely difficult to effectively sterilize plastic tubing, racking canes, etc without damaging them or introducing unwanted leak paths.

 

[Shenanigans]

I use that concentration to rid my equipment of Brettanomyces and it appears to work well. I don’t know if Saccharomyces var diastaticus is more robust but I haven’t experienced cross-contamination yet between Brett and Sacc-only beers fermented in the same glass carboys using this method.

I would recommend using a separate set of plastic gear for your Saccharomyces var diastaticus beers — it can be extremely difficult to effectively sterilize plastic tubing, racking canes, etc without damaging them or introducing unwanted leak paths.

Great thanks for the reply.
I will use this method as a once off and just stick to Saccharomyces for now.
I have so many beers on my to do list that I can easily wait for a while before I decide if I will brew with the last pack of Belle Saison I have or not. Think that pack has a best before date of end of 2019.

 

[CodeSection]

Was planning on brewing a 10 gallon batch of Mobcraft's Change of Saisons. Below is the recipe. After reading everything on this thread along with Wyeast Labs's warnings, as a newbie, I do not want to entertain using this yeast. What yeast would you substitute to avoid the contaminants mentioned in this thread and doesn't carry the STA1 gene?

Recipe Details
Scaled down so you can brew your own 5 gallon batch
Special ingredients

• 1 gram black peppercorns
• 1 gram green peppercorns

Yeast

• Wyeast Labs 3711

Malt bill

• 7.00 lbs Pilsner (2 Row) Bel,
• 0.30 lbs Wheat, Torrified,
• 0.57 lbs Rye, Flaked,
• 1.13 lbs Rye Malt,
• 1.00 lbs Munich Malt - 20L.

Boil time

• 60 mins

Hop regimen

• 1.0 oz EK Goldings @ 60 mins
• 1.5 oz EK Goldings @ 5 mins
• 1.5 oz Styrian Goldings @ 5 mins
• 0.5 oz EK Goldings Whirlpool for 15 mins
• 0.5 oz Styrian Goldings Whirlpool for 15 mins

Gravity

• 1.053/1.008

IBU

• 37

ABV

• 5-5.5%

 

[RPh_Guy]

What yeast would you substitute to avoid the contaminants mentioned in this thread and doesn't carry the STA1 gene?

Saison yeasts are characterized by high attenuation. If you're worried about it, brew something that's not a saison.

 

[Shenanigans]

Saison yeasts are characterized by high attenuation. If you're worried about it, brew something that's not a saison.

I have only ever used Belle Saison and MJ M29 so I'm not an expert on the Saison strains.
However if I understand correctly only certain strain have been identified as being a "problem" so CodeSection still go ahead and brew a Saison and avoid any potential issues if uses one of these strains and follows normal acceptable sanitation practices .

BTW anyone actually know if MJ M29 is include in the suspects?

 

[RPh_Guy]

However if I understand correctly only certain strain have been identified as being a "problem" so CodeSection still go ahead and brew a Saison and avoid any potential issues if uses one of these strains

AFAIK all saison strains are diastaticus var. ...., which you need to make a saison.

Labeling something as a "contaminant" depends on whether you want it there or not. So, whether they're a problem depends on your sanitation practices. Belle forms a biofilm so it's much more risky, but it's a very popular strain so I'm thinking it must not be that bad.

Personally I wouldn't worry about using any of them because I know my cleaning and sanitation process is adequate.

 

[Dog House Brew]

Why not just use iodophor and move on from there. I’ve brewed many Saison w all the different yeasts. I’ve never had any contamination’s issues using the same plastic fermenters for other beers. Clean and sanitize correctly and all should be good.

 

[Shenanigans]

AFAIK all saison strains are diastaticus var. ...., which you need to make a saison.

Labeling something as a "contaminant" depends on whether you want it there or not. So, whether they're a problem depends on your sanitation practices. Belle forms a biofilm so it's much more risky, but it's a very popular strain so I'm thinking it must not be that bad.

Personally I wouldn't worry about using any of them because I know my cleaning and sanitation process is adequate.

OK fair point.
As with a lot of homebrew topics there seems to be a divided opinion on this.

On a side note on Monday I did a gravity check on an Oat Pale ale after 9 days in the fermenter and it went from 1.048 to 1.004 with London III 1318 91% attenuation
Mashed at 154 for 60 min and fermented at a constant 68F.
It was a 3rd generation of the yeast but I can't imagine that it would have changed that much.
Of course it can have many reasons but could also be an indication that I have a diastaticus var issue.

 

[CodeSection]

I might use Wyeast 3522 or WLP550 instead. From what I have read, neither has the STA1 gene.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I might use Wyeast 3522 or WLP550 instead. From what I have read, neither has the STA1 gene.

3522 looks fine, just a POF+ ale yeast.
550 looks highly attenuative, about the same risk as a saison strain.

1.048 to 1.004 with London III 1318 91% attenuation
Mashed at 154 for 60 min and fermented at a constant 68F.
It was a 3rd generation of the yeast but I can't imagine that it would have changed that much.

I agree with your assessment. Repitching absolutely increases risk of contamination.

 

[CodeSection]

@RPh_Guy , thanks for your input. I tried Googling to read about POF+ ? I found "The POF gene codes for the enzyme ferulic acid decarboxylase. As the name implies, the enzyme catalyses a reaction in which a carboxyl group is removed from ferulic acid, leaving 4-vinyl guaiacol (4VG)."

So, in basic terms, what does it mean?

 

[RPh_Guy]

POF = Phenolic Off Flavor.

A POF+(positive) yeast produces phenols. Spiciness, pepper, smoky, clove, etc. Most/all belgian and saison strains and weizen strains are POF+, as well as the vast majority of wild yeast.

4VG is a phenolic precursor. You can increase it in your wort using an acid rest.

Other brewing yeasts were selected because they are POF- (negative).

 

[CodeSection]

@RPh_Guy , thanks again for the explanation!