According to this source:
http://www.garshol.priv.no/blog/393.html
What we would usually consider SERIOUSLY underpitching, is the key to success with those type of yeasts.
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According to this source:
http://www.garshol.priv.no/blog/393.html
What we would usually consider SERIOUSLY underpitching, is the key to success with those type of yeasts.
14thstreet
Well-Known Member
I thought I read that piece but not carefully enough to put into practice! I should then take most everyone's comments regarding esters in their kveik NEIPAs with a grain of salt? I'll revive the flakes I have in the freezer and do a cell count to get a handle on the next batches for more controlled pitches. With Hornindal being a blend of strains, it may still be a future possibility that it adapts to my practices differently than others.
I understood the article in a way that it says that the heavy yeast growth caused by extreme underpitching basically is mandatory for relevant ester production. A pitch at high temperature should also help, meaning 30c and even higher.
I wouldn't bother with cell counting, I would basically just try his one teaspoon slurry on 25 liters wort method. Not very scientific,I know, but if it works, than it works!
We basically need to take everything written online about kveik being used under normal homebrew conditions with normal homebrew wisdom with a grain of salt, I completely agree on that.
I wouldn't bother with cell counting, I would basically just try his one teaspoon slurry on 25 liters wort method. Not very scientific,I know, but if it works, than it works!
We basically need to take everything written online about kveik being used under normal homebrew conditions with normal homebrew wisdom with a grain of salt, I completely agree on that.
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A derivative of the Omega recipe.
For 6 gallons (~23 liters)
Pilsen Malt - 9 lbs (90%)
White Wheat - 1 lb (10%)
Columbus - .5 oz at 15 minutes
Vic Secret- 1 oz at flameout
Motueka - .5 oz at flameout
Hallertau Blanc - .5 oz at flameout
Nelson Sauvin - 2 oz dry hop for 2 days
Directions
Add grain to 8.5 gallons water at 153°F for a target mash of 147°F. Hold mash temp for 60 minutes. Recirculate mash until wort is free from large amounts of grain. Drain off wort into boil kettle for approximately 8 gallons (sparge as needed). Boil for 60 minutes, adding hops at 15 minutes and flameout as specified. Drain off ~6 gallons of wort to fermenter. Add glucoamylase to wort as directed (NOTE: glucoamylase is denatured at higher temperatures. Do NOT add to kettle). Pitch yeast as directed. After terminal gravity is reached, add dry hops and crash after two days. Package to higher carbonation (~2.7- 3 Volumes CO2).
I went to message my LHBS yesterday to see if they had and of Omega's Hornindal. I scrolled down on their facebook page before sending the message, and it turned out that the owner from Omega was going to be there and put on a presentation so I had to go.
About 75% of the presentation was centered around Kveik yeast. He really drilled in about Hornindal and how versatile and resilient this yeast strain is.
One major takeaway from the presentation in regards to Hornindal yeast; He said they have conducted experiments with low gravity beers and have gathered other anecdotal reports. He said this yeast strain has difficulty attenuating effectively when fermenting low gravity beers. If you are using it for a low gravity beer he recommended using yeast nutrients.
An additional takeaway in regards to cell count and why they don't post cell count on their packets; Biomass of yeast vary wildly from strain to strain. For example a a Belgian yeast cell may be significantly more massive/larger than a Kveik strain. He said biomass is a better indicator for pitch rate than cell count. To summarize, they measure their packs by biomass, not cell count.
I got to nerd out along with about 30 other homebrewers for an hour. It was amazing!
About 75% of the presentation was centered around Kveik yeast. He really drilled in about Hornindal and how versatile and resilient this yeast strain is.
One major takeaway from the presentation in regards to Hornindal yeast; He said they have conducted experiments with low gravity beers and have gathered other anecdotal reports. He said this yeast strain has difficulty attenuating effectively when fermenting low gravity beers. If you are using it for a low gravity beer he recommended using yeast nutrients.
An additional takeaway in regards to cell count and why they don't post cell count on their packets; Biomass of yeast vary wildly from strain to strain. For example a a Belgian yeast cell may be significantly more massive/larger than a Kveik strain. He said biomass is a better indicator for pitch rate than cell count. To summarize, they measure their packs by biomass, not cell count.
I got to nerd out along with about 30 other homebrewers for an hour. It was amazing!
Yes, the blog post linked above also mentions the high nutrient demand of the kveiks, good that you reminded me of this. Would have loved to listen to the presentation myself!
I've already sent them a message to ask if they would be willing to provide some of the slides or the entire powerpoint. Many of slides alone are informative. The presentation was great though. They also had a deal, buy 2 Omega packs and get 1 free so that was a nice bonus.
Sounds good! Neu us know!
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
Hmm - about that. Although the "original" kveiks can have 6-10 different strains of yeast (plus bacteria in some cases), you'd expect the commercial versions to have far fewer than that. I get the impression most of the commercial versions of Voss are single strains, the Escarpment version of Hornindal has two strains. I don't know if the Omega guy said anything about the multistrainness of their version, they used to explicitly say they offered a multistrain but now say nothing one way or the other.
From the Owner: "Hornindal is a blend of multiple closely related strains. The other two kveik in our collection (HotHead and Voss) are single strains."
+1 When I made an imperial saison a few months ago, I ordered two vials of Voss from Yeast Bay to be on the safe side. It was suggested by them to underpitch and run the temp high. Took their advice and man, tons of orange esters.
The thought of pitching 1 vial into a 1.08 beer felt so wrong. The stuff is amazing.
Hornindal is next on my order list.
I wonder what the contrast would be between underpitching and pitching regularly. When I listened to the Omega owner, he said he's heard of people underpitching although they have not conducted their own experiments using this method. He said that from their experience/experimentation, fermenting at high temps threw off plenty of fruity esters. They even did a no hop beer with one of Kveik strains (can't remember which one) and they said it resulted in a substantial amount of fruity aroma and flavor.
I will brew a session apa this weekend with voss. I will pitch at 100f (37.8c) and only use half or a third of the vile I got in the fridge, without a starter of course. It will be about 17liters.
I will open a new thread, but I am a bit scared regarding basically everything.
I will open a new thread, but I am a bit scared regarding basically everything.
I think an interesting experiment, one that I plan on doing in the next couple months, is splitting a 10 gallon batch into 2 different fermenters. I would pitch one full pack in one and maybe 1/3 pack in the other and see if there is a difference in flavor and aroma. A basic pale ale, like you're doing, or even a SMaSH with a mild hop would be a good way to test for a perceivable variance.
Yes, a split batch would certainly tell more of the storry. Also using just bittering hops would help.
In my case, I am "just" looking for a really really well flocking yeast to brew my session ales, to be able to transport them in the backpack without agitating the yeast. That is why I am not splitting, but the article obviously made me curious about this underpitching and high temperature fermentation thing. To be a little bit scientific, I would need to split it, but I am not going to do this because I am simply lacking the necessities atm.
What I would do, if I were you, is pitch both versions at the abolut upper end of the possible fermentation temperature, being 100f (37.7c). Then you could see if the pitchrate really does the trick as the temperature is already in the perfect spot for both of them.
isomerization
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Realistically, you only need one pack. Take a teaspoon and pitch in batch 1, then pitch the remainder (or make starter) for batch 2. Relay stress the system. I doubt you see much difference between say 50 and 150 billion cells.
FYI
Pitched 1/3 of a veil on 16 Liters of 1.05 OG Pale Ale at 37.1C (99F). About 7 hours later (slept, cannot say when it started), full blown action in the fermenter.
Pitched 1/3 of a veil on 16 Liters of 1.05 OG Pale Ale at 37.1C (99F). About 7 hours later (slept, cannot say when it started), full blown action in the fermenter.
This yeast is a beast. It now, 18h after pitching, has a Kraeusen, bigger than all yeasts I used before. It looks like it is an alien digesting something 
I bet I could have even pitched only a sixth of the vile and it would still go strong.
Kveik liquid yeast is now officially cheaper than the cheaper dry yeasts. One bottle is good for at least 60 liters of normal gravity word, without a starter of course.
I bet I could have even pitched only a sixth of the vile and it would still go strong.
Kveik liquid yeast is now officially cheaper than the cheaper dry yeasts. One bottle is good for at least 60 liters of normal gravity word, without a starter of course.
I am drinking a pale ale made with Voss Kveik (Imperial Loki) tonight, which is 13 days after brew day. It was ready to go at day 9. Dried the yeast and will report back on using it from dried form.
ttuato
Well-Known Member
Mind blown!!!!
ttuato
Well-Known Member
OP
OP
shoreman
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Wow that's crazy.
brew703
Well-Known Member
I brewed somewhat of a session NEIPA today using Hornindal. Made a starter on Tuesday, harvested 500 ML, decanted and pitched today. Had some krausen in the flask so went ahead and saved some of that as well. Yeast was pitched at 130 pm today and it's kicking now, 3 hrs in. Never seen that before. Temp is 80 degrees and that's what I plan on fermenting at for the duration.
Will probably DH tomorrow and keg towards the end of the week if I've reached FG.
Will probably DH tomorrow and keg towards the end of the week if I've reached FG.
Wow, wish they had this 30 years ago. Swamp cooler was all I had. Now 90-100 ferment temperature blows my mind
Definitely want to hear how it turns out!
I've had great beers (neipas) specifically turn out great fermenting at 90 degrees f with the hordinal strain. Submitted one to a comp , no fusels or anything noted on my score sheet. Each brew however has had a strong alcohol hotness until it is force carbed and cold crashed , then it disappears completely to be replaced with crazy citrus aromatics and flavor.
brew703
Well-Known Member
I brewed a NEIPA on 12/29 using Hornindal. Fermented at 80. Showed signs of fermentation within an hour and full blown at 3 hrs. Vigorous fermentation for about 1 day then started to die down.
I added my dry hops on 12/30, which it was still fermenting but had started to slow. Probably missed the biotransformation window. I increased temps to 84 where it's been since. I have a new keg enroute. Should be here tomorrow. My plan is to drop temps some just to try and get some of the yeast to settle out. Will probably keg on Sunday or Monday. If I had my new keg I probably would have kegged yesterday or today.
My target OG was 1.054 but I was actually at 1.051. I only boiled for 45 min and didn't get enough boil off. I also had about a 1/2 gal of wort left over. Oh well so now this becomes a session NEIPA, which I am ok with.
Finished at 82% attenuation, which is above what Omega says on their packaging. The sample smells amazing, has some pineapple notes. Not quite as bright as I was hoping for but still good.
Since my wife and I gave up drinking during the week, I'll have to wait until next Friday to pull a sample. Might has to sneak a taste before then.
I added my dry hops on 12/30, which it was still fermenting but had started to slow. Probably missed the biotransformation window. I increased temps to 84 where it's been since. I have a new keg enroute. Should be here tomorrow. My plan is to drop temps some just to try and get some of the yeast to settle out. Will probably keg on Sunday or Monday. If I had my new keg I probably would have kegged yesterday or today.
My target OG was 1.054 but I was actually at 1.051. I only boiled for 45 min and didn't get enough boil off. I also had about a 1/2 gal of wort left over. Oh well so now this becomes a session NEIPA, which I am ok with.
Finished at 82% attenuation, which is above what Omega says on their packaging. The sample smells amazing, has some pineapple notes. Not quite as bright as I was hoping for but still good.
Since my wife and I gave up drinking during the week, I'll have to wait until next Friday to pull a sample. Might has to sneak a taste before then.
Attachments
When it was at peak fermentation, the temp held at 87.4. My OG was 1.064 and a pulled a sample 2 nights ago. The gravity reading was at 1.020. I hope it still had a little bit to go, because it tasted a little too sweet and didn’t have enough bitterness for balance. I’m worried that I mashed a little too high which seems to be my problem these past couple of beers I’ve made...
Anyway the aroma from this was unreal! It was a tropical fruit bomb. Although there were an ample amount of hops used, I believe the yeast contributed to the overall aroma of this beer. There were no off flavors. I’ll keep you posted on the final outcome. Hopefully my FG will be down a bit when I measure it this weekend
Anyway the aroma from this was unreal! It was a tropical fruit bomb. Although there were an ample amount of hops used, I believe the yeast contributed to the overall aroma of this beer. There were no off flavors. I’ll keep you posted on the final outcome. Hopefully my FG will be down a bit when I measure it this weekend
Turned out really tart and grassy/vegetale.... Not nice. There was kind of a pelicle on top, but it looked like remaining krauesen that didn't want to drop, not like the typical infection looks like.... However my voss kveik veil was pressurized when opened and foamed over. Don't know if this is normal.
My FG ended up at 1.016 so I ended up with a 6.3% beer with attenuation around 74%. I'm going to credit the lower attenuation with my higher mash temp. The beer smelled great still, but not as good as the first sample I pulled. I did not add a second round of dry hops though. On top of that I had to bottle because I do not have CO2 for my keg yet. Hopefully this doesn't kill the hop flavor/aroma and oxidize my beer but time will tell.
Overall impression of this yeast is fantastic so far. This seems like it will be a great strain for NEIPAs. I can't wait to use it for some upcoming batches. I'll report back when I crack open a bottle in a couple weeks.
Overall impression of this yeast is fantastic so far. This seems like it will be a great strain for NEIPAs. I can't wait to use it for some upcoming batches. I'll report back when I crack open a bottle in a couple weeks.
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MakeDankBeer
Well-Known Member
I picked up some Hornindal OLY091 , to use in a berliner kettle sour, but starting to have sec
I'm planning to use this in a 1.040-1.050 beer, probably should get some yeast nutrients? Any suggestions on how much to pitch ? I was planning on taking a teaspoon or tablespoon out of the package and pitching that.
I'm planning to use this in a 1.040-1.050 beer, probably should get some yeast nutrients? Any suggestions on how much to pitch ? I was planning on taking a teaspoon or tablespoon out of the package and pitching that.
He recommended nutrients for lower gravity beers so I would be safe and maybe pick some up if it’s not much trouble. I’ve only done one batch with it and pitched the entire pouch. I want to experiment with drastically underpitching once I upgrade to 10 gallon batches, but haven’t had a chance to experiment yet. The owner said they haven’t played around with underpitching, and said that high temps are important for the ester productiom with this yeast. You can always try a teaspoon and if you don’t see activity the next day, add more.
Dgallo
Instagram: bantam_brews
I see a lot of people posting about how quickly kveik gets you down to F.G., from 3-4 days, however I have this happen consistantly when I use either London ale III or Imperial dry-hop. Active fermentation with Krausen starts within 12 hours and I go from 1.062-1.064 down to 1.012-1.014 in just about 72 hours. Am I experiencing non typical results?
brew703
Well-Known Member
I brewed a NEIPA using Hornindal. Fermented at 80 (beginning) and finished at 85. Within 30 min had activity. 3 hrs in it was rocking. OG was 1.050/ FG 1.009. Within 24-30 hrs of pitch activity had slowed considerably.
I just kegged this batch on Tuesday so it should be ready to sample tomorrow or Saturday.
I just kegged this batch on Tuesday so it should be ready to sample tomorrow or Saturday.
