So I have made a handul of beers (Amber, IPA, Pale Ale, Porter). They all seem to have a similar flavor. I can't describe it as anything but a "home brew" flavor. They just don't taste like craft beers i've had from the bottle or on tap a brew pubs. Is it because of the malt extract? I've done partial mashes with specialty grains, but havent noticed significant differences in flavor. What's the deal.
"home brew" taste. What's the deal?
- Thread starter oatsoda
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beerman0001
Well-Known Member
What yeast are you using? What temp are you fermenting at?
I'd say homebrew flavor (if used in a bad way) means poorly fermented, poorly conditioned beer and probably a bad recipe to boot. It could just be your water. You have to be more specific to get a specific answer. Frankly I think hombrew is better and a good adjective.
I just bottled a porter today. If i recall correctly i used a WhiteLabs british ale yeast (can't remember the number). Fermentation varied between 68 and 70 degrees. One week in the primary and one week in secondary.
Hoodweisen
Well-Known Member
Green
SilverZero
Well-Known Member
That's not very long. I'd double each of those if you have the patience. There's a rule of thumb out there: 1-2-3. One week primary, two weeks secondary, three weeks in the bottle to carb and condition. These are all minimums. More time is almost always a good thing. You can't throw a rock in these forums without hitting somebody who leaves their batches in primary for 4 weeks or more (though often with no secondary at all). Let it ride!
Your temps look fine if they're stable, you could stand to come down a couple of degrees if you can manage it to get some really clean flavors.
abc08234
Member
only 2 weeks total for fermentation will almost surely guarantee rocket fuel taste in your beer. Is that what you mean by all taste the same?
bomberman
Well-Known Member
Do you make starters before pitching? Also if it was British ale yeast like you say, then 68-70 would be in the high range and might produce some off flavors.
White labs list that yeast's optimal temps at 65-70.
White labs list that yeast's optimal temps at 65-70.
No, sorry. 2 weeks is perfect to ferment a normal ale. More time won't hurt, but is unnessary.
At least 2 weeks, 3 is better, in bottles before serving. Keep bottles above 70F for best carb time.
Try making a lighter beer with light DME. Use a good clean commercial yeast like S-05 / US-05. If you do use dry yeast, no need to aerate your wort but do rehydrate your yeast 15 minutes before pitching (search HBT, lots of threads on doing that).
Thanks for the help everyone (with the exception of hoodweisen)! I'll be much more patient with my next batch. Brewing is a ton of fun. This forum seems like a positive place to share and learn. I look forward to future visits!
TopherM
Well-Known Member
+1, you are not being patient enough.
1) For most ale yeasts, you really should ferment closer to 60-64 degrees. A slow fermentation is a clean fermentation.
2) I keep my beers in the primary fermenter for a minimum of three weeks. In the first 3-4 days, most active ferementation takes place. In the next 5-7 days, the final few gravity points ferment out. In the next 8-10 days, the yeast will clean up their bi-products, promoting a clean, clear beer.
3) Bottle carb can take up to 3 weeks. Conditioning can take an additional three weeks after that, depending on gravity and style.
With one week in primary and one in secondary, and ferm temps in the 70s (ferm temps in the wort are often 5-8 degrees warmer than ambient temps), you are likely drinking very young beer that has not reached proper final gravity, maybe not properly carbonated, and not properly matured, leaving estery off flavors from your slightly warm fermentation.
Patience is everything!!
1) For most ale yeasts, you really should ferment closer to 60-64 degrees. A slow fermentation is a clean fermentation.
2) I keep my beers in the primary fermenter for a minimum of three weeks. In the first 3-4 days, most active ferementation takes place. In the next 5-7 days, the final few gravity points ferment out. In the next 8-10 days, the yeast will clean up their bi-products, promoting a clean, clear beer.
3) Bottle carb can take up to 3 weeks. Conditioning can take an additional three weeks after that, depending on gravity and style.
With one week in primary and one in secondary, and ferm temps in the 70s (ferm temps in the wort are often 5-8 degrees warmer than ambient temps), you are likely drinking very young beer that has not reached proper final gravity, maybe not properly carbonated, and not properly matured, leaving estery off flavors from your slightly warm fermentation.
Patience is everything!!
Huh? My beers must suck then. I never leave ales in the fermenter for more than about two weeks.
Ok, now to be helpful-
Yes, sometimes extract is the culprit of that "homebrew" taste. I'd suggest always buying fresh extract (never the canned stuff) and adding it late in the boil. I'd suggest never buying prehopped LME in a can, especially.
Fermenting in the mid 60s (beer temperature, not room temperature!) can really make a huge difference in the beer quality. Also, proper pitching rates are crucial. If you're using liquid yeast, make sure you make a starter or buy quality dry yeast in 11 gram packages. Stay away from Munton's yeast, Cooper's yeast, and any other yeast in 5 gram packages.
Water is the biggest ingredient of beer, and it's very important. What kind of water are you using? Some tap waters have a "funny" flavor to them, but some are just fine to use.
Lastly, can you give us a recipe with your technique of one of your beers that has that "homebrew" taste? Then we can see if we can pick something out.
A good homebrew tastes like a good quality commercial craft beer, so don't give up yet!
Yes, sometimes extract is the culprit of that "homebrew" taste. I'd suggest always buying fresh extract (never the canned stuff) and adding it late in the boil. I'd suggest never buying prehopped LME in a can, especially.
Fermenting in the mid 60s (beer temperature, not room temperature!) can really make a huge difference in the beer quality. Also, proper pitching rates are crucial. If you're using liquid yeast, make sure you make a starter or buy quality dry yeast in 11 gram packages. Stay away from Munton's yeast, Cooper's yeast, and any other yeast in 5 gram packages.
Water is the biggest ingredient of beer, and it's very important. What kind of water are you using? Some tap waters have a "funny" flavor to them, but some are just fine to use.
Lastly, can you give us a recipe with your technique of one of your beers that has that "homebrew" taste? Then we can see if we can pick something out.
A good homebrew tastes like a good quality commercial craft beer, so don't give up yet!
McCuckerson
Well-Known Member
I used to think the same thing! I agree with what many others have said that your problem is time-related. Don't even tatste a beer before 6 weeks unless its Biermunchers centennial blonde (which for some reason is excellent at 10 days....wtf?) I see it this way: if i am going to spend 4 hours making a living thing of beauty, why would I kill it before its ready? I promise you, you will LOVE your beer if let it age.
OBTW, its REALLY, REALLY hard to make a bad beer. Trust me I have been trying for over 100 batches now ;-)
mcbethenstein
Well-Known Member
Do you aerate well enough? I am just coming to the realization that my "stirring" is not enough to properly aerate wort, and my house flavor may be related to that... I will know in 6 more weeks if that is the cause. I've eliminated water, extract, sanitation, temp, etc... Unless my taste buds are wrong.
McCuckerson
Well-Known Member
Yoop, we expect better than that.....
Sean
Well-Known Member
He was not calling you green. He was calling your beer green. As in young.
Some good tips here.
McCuckerson
Well-Known Member
Couldn't disagree more... Biermunchers Centennial Blonde is grain-to-glass in 10 days and its lovely
Yoop, we expect better than that.....
I don't know what you mean?
I'm supposed to follow like a lemming and leave my beer in the fermenter for a month even though that's dumb? I leave all of my ales in the fermenter for about two weeks. That's plenty of time if you use decent brewing techniques. After fermentation is over, the yeast will go back and digest their own waste products such as diacetyl, that that is over about three days after beer reaches FG. There is no "magical" event that happens in 3 or 4 weeks that will change that. A well made beer doesn't NEED 4 weeks in the fermenter, although no harm may come to it.
McCuckerson
Well-Known Member
+1, I actually laughed out loud when I read that. A year or two ago I would have thought the same thing! Cherry, pure cherry....
McCuckerson
Well-Known Member
I don't know what you mean?
QUOTE]I meant the quick retort, we expect better from our moderators
Sean
Well-Known Member
Science aside. I find they do get cleaner and the flavors come together better if I leave it a month in the fermentor, and that bottle ageing is not as nice.
How long do you leave them in the bottle before you feel they are best? For example a standard pale ale.
Edit: But it looks like you mostly Keg? So you are still 'aging' in bulk, which is what I am getting at.
ToddO
Well-Known Member
Please elaborate. I use dry yeast a lot and have always thought that I never aerate enough.
Cheers~
McCuckerson
Well-Known Member
I do about three weeks primary/secondary and the "try" to do another 3 weeks in the keg. The time in the keg helps with the clarity and body of the beer. If I tap a big beer too early it will taste thin and harsh. It seems like the more caramel I use, the more aging it needs
Dunno, works for me.
I think what happens in the weeks after fermentation is mostly just solids like yeast and protean slowly falling out. The yeast are done. Off flavors will mellow in time but it will never be as good as it could have been without the mistakes that caused the off flavors in the first place.
The yeast are dried in a optimum condition with everything they need to reproduce. I still aerate.
I'm tempted to sig that.
Dr. Clayton Cone states that the dry yeast does not benefit from additional O2 as the cells are well prepared for many initial divisions without it. Except for higher alcohol beers, it's unnecessary.
http://www.danstaryeast.com/library/aeration-and-starter-versus-wort
ToddO
Well-Known Member
Awesome. Thanks for that~
For me, I make mostly hoppy APAs and IPAs. They tend to be best at 3-4 weeks or so after brewday. I do have a stout that needs a few more weeks to meld, so it's best at about 6 weeks after brewday and stays awesome until the keg is gone.
I don't think anything like autolysis will happen in 4-6 weeks in a fermenter at reasonable temperatures. I just don't think there is any benefit either, though, in a well-made ale.
Maybe people parrot the "month in the primary" trend without really noticing the differences. A well made beer may not be harmed in the least by a month-long primary but I still fail to see any benefit except that brewers can be lazy like winemakers! (I'm a winemaker- that's not an insult!)
meant the quick retort, we expect better from our moderators
Ah! One of the reasons for my "quick retort" was me just being myself, I guess. I'm sick to death of people saying, "The reason your beer doesn't taste good is because you didn't leave it in primary for a year!" (slight exaggeration, but you get the point!)
A well made beer will taste a bit green in 10-14 days, yes. But the cause of a poor tasting beer is almost never a short time in the fermenter. It's far more likely to be poor ingredients, improper pitching temperature, improper pitching rates, bad water chemistry, too-high fermentation temperature, etc. Yes, that might clean up a wee bit with time. But no way you're going to get a great beer in a 4 week primary that was made poorly. It really really bugs me to hear that "time cures all beers". Trust me. It doesn't. Off-flavors may clean up a bit. But it's best to just not allow them in the first place.
Cellarbrau
Well-Known Member
Poor Yooper! You can't just tell the masses the world is round and not expect to be lynched.
Sean
Well-Known Member
I Know it is nearly a Mortal sin to disagree with Yooper on this forum. But I do disagree. 14 days in the fermenter is fine; bottle or keg at that point, if the beer is done, and it should be. Generally if you drink it before 5 or 6 weeks it is not going to taste as clean, crisp and rounded as it will at 6 to 10 weeks. Depending on the beer most assuredly, but I mean pale ales and IPAs. And I am not talking about off flavors that do not belong in the beer.
YMMV.
Cellarbrau
Well-Known Member
Sean you are absolutely right in what you're saying but that's not the topic of this thread.
"That's a nice IIPA (RIS, Doppelbock, etc.). It's going to be fantastic in 6 months!"
And
"Umm. Yeah, this tastes sort of home made."
Two different things.
And since no one else likes to say them:
"Infected."
"Oxidized."
There I said it.
"That's a nice IIPA (RIS, Doppelbock, etc.). It's going to be fantastic in 6 months!"
And
"Umm. Yeah, this tastes sort of home made."
Two different things.
And since no one else likes to say them:
"Infected."
"Oxidized."
There I said it.
drainbamage
Keep HBT weird.
Oatsoda, could it be something as simple as your priming sugar that you are tasting? If you've ever tasted homebrew from a Mr. Beer kit (which usually uses only a couple pounds of LME and a ridiculous amount of corn sugar), it adds a distinct taste. Have you ever tried using a different priming sugar for bottling?
PseudoChef
Well-Known Member
Thanks for doing my work for me, Yoop! I'm kegging a beer right now that I brewed last Saturday. 8 days. 1.055 that got a bunch of roaring 1728, fermented in about 2 days at 68F, dropped, and now ready to go. I picked this yeast because it floccs like crazy - the American Ale yeast at 64 just finished, so I'll give it a couple more days.
I don't buy into the whole "bulk aging" thing, though. Look at a commercial brewery - the ones that OP wants his beer to taste like - they're pushing staple beers out as fast as they can, because they lose money if they don't. I don't taste "green" commercial beers. Expanding on this, listen to The Brewing Network's "Can You Brew It?" program - they're cloning many beers that were brewed in the span of 10 days. No one comments on them saying they're "green" - they say they taste like the commercial beers.
To give my thoughts on OP with my personal experience (which I'm in no way saying is applicable to everyone), I have found that "homebrew" flavor to mainly be gigantic glasses of yeast and/or protein haze.
Once my beers drop clear, I notice a remarkable world of difference. I find that excess yeast in suspension gives terrible phenolic and bitter notes while also negatively affecting the mouthfeel of the beer. While protein doesn't affect flavor directly, it can also affect the mouthfeel, which is a more critical component of the beer's final composition than I think some people like to give it credit for. Yes, not all commercial breweries filter - but they do let the bulk of that material drop out before the product hits packaging.
Of course time helps in this regard, but cold crashing and possibly fining are more effective.
I don't buy into the whole "bulk aging" thing, though. Look at a commercial brewery - the ones that OP wants his beer to taste like - they're pushing staple beers out as fast as they can, because they lose money if they don't. I don't taste "green" commercial beers. Expanding on this, listen to The Brewing Network's "Can You Brew It?" program - they're cloning many beers that were brewed in the span of 10 days. No one comments on them saying they're "green" - they say they taste like the commercial beers.
To give my thoughts on OP with my personal experience (which I'm in no way saying is applicable to everyone), I have found that "homebrew" flavor to mainly be gigantic glasses of yeast and/or protein haze.
Once my beers drop clear, I notice a remarkable world of difference. I find that excess yeast in suspension gives terrible phenolic and bitter notes while also negatively affecting the mouthfeel of the beer. While protein doesn't affect flavor directly, it can also affect the mouthfeel, which is a more critical component of the beer's final composition than I think some people like to give it credit for. Yes, not all commercial breweries filter - but they do let the bulk of that material drop out before the product hits packaging.
Of course time helps in this regard, but cold crashing and possibly fining are more effective.
sudsmcgee
Well-Known Member
I had an off flavor that I tracked back to two separate things:
1) I was using Brewers Best kits and they contained LME of who-knows freshness. I found these kits all had the same overall metallic flavor, which is gone with my AG brewing.
2) My water must have a high chlorine content. This resulted in an unpleasant bitter taste. Once I started either adding campden, or filtering the water with a charcoal filter, this too has stopped and my beers taste better than ever.
I also agree with Yooper that the 4-week primary "rule" is a little excessive. If your processes are good, you really only need about 2 weeks for most beers with an OG below 1.060 IME. Higher alcohol beers do take more time, and lower alcohol beers take less. I'm making BierMuncher's Centennial Blonde today and I plan on leaving it in the primary for 7 days and then kegging.
1) I was using Brewers Best kits and they contained LME of who-knows freshness. I found these kits all had the same overall metallic flavor, which is gone with my AG brewing.
2) My water must have a high chlorine content. This resulted in an unpleasant bitter taste. Once I started either adding campden, or filtering the water with a charcoal filter, this too has stopped and my beers taste better than ever.
I also agree with Yooper that the 4-week primary "rule" is a little excessive. If your processes are good, you really only need about 2 weeks for most beers with an OG below 1.060 IME. Higher alcohol beers do take more time, and lower alcohol beers take less. I'm making BierMuncher's Centennial Blonde today and I plan on leaving it in the primary for 7 days and then kegging.
bernerbrau
Well-Known Member
Ah, the "homebrew taste." This is interesting, because my brother, still a noob, brought some bottles of his homebrew down from Kentucky, and the same weekend, we checked out a beer festival and sampled some brews from the homebrew stand. Damned if they didn't have that exact same flavor characteristic. I'd call it bananas with some phenolics and fusel alcohol. Drinkable, but only to a point. Mostly, this happens because the yeast are fermenting in a sub-optimal environment.
Here's what you can do to cut back on those "homebrew" flavors:
1. Pitch more yeast, even dry yeast. It is much easier to under-pitch than it is to over-pitch.
2. Ferment colder. Do whatever you can to get your temps down, even if it's just ghetto swamp cooler (wet t-shirt/desk fan combo).
3. Shake your wort vigorously for 5 minutes before pitching.
4. Re-check your sanitation practices. Try switching from star-san to iodophor, or boiling your equipment (the stuff that can handle a 15 minute boil, that is). If in doubt, sanitize. It's possible some of these "homebrew" flavors can come from a stray bug getting a shot at your wort.
Here's what you can do to cut back on those "homebrew" flavors:
1. Pitch more yeast, even dry yeast. It is much easier to under-pitch than it is to over-pitch.
2. Ferment colder. Do whatever you can to get your temps down, even if it's just ghetto swamp cooler (wet t-shirt/desk fan combo).
3. Shake your wort vigorously for 5 minutes before pitching.
4. Re-check your sanitation practices. Try switching from star-san to iodophor, or boiling your equipment (the stuff that can handle a 15 minute boil, that is). If in doubt, sanitize. It's possible some of these "homebrew" flavors can come from a stray bug getting a shot at your wort.
I also wonder if that "homebrew taste" is because of extract- either aged, or boiled too long so that there are some maillard reactions. Maillard reactions (those from "browning" like in caramelizing) are great in some beers- like Scottish ales. But in some beers, it causes what I consider a "homebrew" extract-y taste.
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