Fast Souring - Modern Methods

[RPh_Guy]

Live and learn. So anything I can do to aid fermentation at this point? I just took a gravity reading, which is 1.016 48 hours in. OG was 1.054 (70% attenuation).

I would add the Lacto at this point, if you haven't already.

Don't worry too much about the acetic acid since it's already done. How much did you add?

 

[BillyBaroo24]

I would add the Lacto at this point, if you haven't already.

Don't worry too much about the acetic acid since it's already done. How much did you add?

About 4 oz

 

[Beer666]

I don't have a good handle on what might cause a cidery flavor. Sorry it didn't work out, but maybe it'll get better over time.

Its not bad just different from what i was expecting. I will definitely dry hop it, keg some and bottle the rest as its improving. The flavour of the 644 starter wort was similar so i am guessing overpitch.
How long would it take without the amylase? Thanks RH

 

[RPh_Guy]

Its not bad just different from what i was expecting. I will definitely dry hop it, keg some and bottle the rest as its improving. The flavour of the 644 starter wort was similar so i am guessing overpitch.
How long would it take without the amylase? Thanks RH

Have you used WLP644 before? Perhaps you just don't like it. I one friend comment that one of my Modern mixed Brett sours with WLP644 was a little "cidery" but she completely loved it. I didn't get that kind of flavor from it.

It's difficult to give a timeline without the glucoamylase (which is different than "amylase"). A few weeks maybe, to be safe.

 

[Steve-Ooo]

Have you used WLP644 before? Perhaps you just don't like it. I one friend comment that one of my Modern mixed Brett sours with WLP644 was a little "cidery" but she completely loved it. I didn't get that kind of flavor from it.

It's difficult to give a timeline without the glucoamylase (which is different than "amylase"). A few weeks maybe, to be safe.

I was just wondering how long it would take a sacc/brett copitch to reach terminal gravity without synthetic enzyme myself. Im concerned it could potentially slowly attenuate for months.
Perhaps thats the advantage to 100% brett. They reached terminal in 4-6 weeks in my experiences.
Has anyone tried the this method with brett and no enzyme?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Im concerned it could potentially slowly attenuate for months.

That's exactly why I recommend using the enzyme, and also so that it's safe to add more Brett cultures at bottling if desired (which I do).

Each culture is different, so theoretically even if one finishes quickly, another might not. The glucoamylase provides peace of mind even though it may not be completely necessary in every case.

 

[Steve-Ooo]

Ok I see now. I've never used enzyme but I'm willing to try if people are having positive results. Do you have a preferred brand or vendor? I've read some enzyme can contain high amounts of bacteria.
I was also thinking about staggering the pitches. What if I pitch brett and glucoamylase and let it go for 24 hours for the brett to take hold, then pitching highly attenuative saison yeast to finish up? Any flaw in this theory?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Ok I see now. I've never used enzyme but I'm willing to try if people are having positive results. Do you have a preferred brand or vendor? I've read some enzyme can contain high amounts of bacteria.
I was also thinking about staggering the pitches. What if I pitch brett and glucoamylase and let it go for 24 hours for the brett to take hold, then pitching highly attenuative saison yeast to finish up? Any flaw in this theory?

I've been using this repackaged Amylo 300:
https://www.grapeandgranary.com/amylo-300-13-oz.html
I don't think any enzyme products would contain bacteria. Where did you read that?

I've been happy with co-pitching Sacc and Brett. I don't know for sure whether there's any tangible advantages or disadvantages to delaying the Sacc, although I doubt there would be a significant advantage. Personally I want dissolved oxygen (DO) to drop to zero ASAP and I know Sacc does that very rapidly. How quickly Brett consumes DO is unknown.
Feel free to experiment if you want.

Yeast esters are a tricky subject. There are a lot of variables in play that can increase or decrease ester production depending on your process.

 

[Steve-Ooo]

I've been using this repackaged Amylo 300:
https://www.grapeandgranary.com/amylo-300-13-oz.html
I don't think any enzyme products would contain bacteria. Where did you read that?

I've been happy with co-pitching Sacc and Brett. I have some ideas but I don't know for sure whether there's any tangible advantages or disadvantages to delaying the Sacc, although I doubt there would be a significant advantage. Personally I want dissolved oxygen (DO) to drop to zero ASAP and I know Sacc does that very rapidly. How quickly Brett consumes DO is unknown.
Feel free to experiment if you want.

Yeast esters are a tricky subject. There are a lot of variables in play that can increase or decrease ester production depending on your process.

In Chris White and Jamil Zainasheff's "Yeast: The Practical Guide to Beer Fermentation", they claim "from a food and safety perspective, the quantities of bacteria are small and harmless, but, but from a brewer's perspective, it is unacceptable. The allowable levels of bacteria in these enzyme products often range in the area of 1,000 to 5,000 colony forming units (CFU), and that is just not acceptable in beer."
Granted the book is 10 years old perhaps quality control has changed, but it was enough to keep me from using it.
Perhaps I'll experiment if I have the free fermentor space for a control batch.

 

[RPh_Guy]

There's a difference between what's legally "allowable" and what's actually in the product. I've never heard of anyone having contamination issues from using a brewing enzyme. Plenty of people use them to make low-carb beers.

 

[Dgallo]

Here is the update. I also post a few questions

The base beer is 9 gallons of
60% -Bohemian Floor malted Pilsner
25% - White wheat
15% -flaked wheat
OG -1.048
Which I split 3 ways;

FV 1 - 3 gals
Primary yeast - Imperial Rustic
Brett - Almagation II
Lacto - Ultra flora
2 lbs Red Raspberry
1 medium orange zested
1 Vanilla bean
Dryhopped with Nelson and Cashmere

FV2- 3 gal
20 ibus of Columbus
Primary yeast - Imperial Rustic
Brett - Brussels blend
3 lbs Peaches
4 grams Lavender
Dryhopped with Citra and Amarillo

FV3 - 3 gal
20 ibus of columbus
Brett - Almagation II
Whirlpooled with Columbus
Dryhopped with Citra, mosiac, & Nelson

_____________________________________

All beers have been fermenting for about 10 days (no airlock activity) but only the all Brett ferment has an established Pellicle, FV1 & FV2 (the co pitches) krausen has fallen but really no pellicle to speak of. Brett character is there, but very delicate and not very noticeable.

my questions are;
1) Does this seem typical
2) will a pellicle form in the other two

 

[Gnomebrewer]

A pellicle only forms with Brett if there's a lot of Oxygen. A pellicle is the natural defence of Brett against O2 dependent contaminants. So, you may or may not get a pellicle on the other two.

IME, Brett character takes about four weeks to start to be noticeable. I've never tried an all-Brett.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Actually I just read a bit more about why pellicles form, and it's not really known. Defence against O2 dependent contaminants is one hypothesis. Regardless, they only form when there's O2 in the headspace.

 

[Dgallo]

Actually I just read a bit more about why pellicles form, and it's not really known. Defence against O2 dependent contaminants is one hypothesis. Regardless, they only form when there's O2 in the headspace.

Thats odd tht it’s o2 related This is a closed system fermonster with the blow off hose under 3 ft of sanitizer

 

[RPh_Guy]

Following my Modern process (high Brett pitch rate, etc), I tend to get reasonably strong Brett flavor very early (right from the beginning) with the couple cultures I've used. With a more traditional process (low pitch rate), it takes at least a few weeks for noticable Brett flavor.
However, I haven't yet used either of those Brett cultures you pitched.

With regard to Brett, there's two aspects to the flavor: Fruity Brett flavor is present at the beginning, which eventually fades. Phenolic funk can sometimes take longer to develop, depending on the culture, and it tends to increase over time.

Traditionally aged beers also usually have strong oxidation character and often have significant autolysis as well, for better or worse depending on your taste.

Thats odd tht it’s o2 related This is a closed system fermonster with the blow off hose under 3 ft of sanitizer

Pellicle formation is definitely from oxygen exposure. Oxygen can diffuse into the sanitizer and then into the headspace, diffuse straight through vinyl and silicone tubing, and diffuse straight through a HDPE Fermonster lid, for example.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Following my Modern process (high Brett pitch rate, etc), I tend to get reasonably strong Brett flavor very early (right from the beginning) with the couple cultures I've used.

I'm going to be giving your process a go in the next couple of weeks. I have a few batches of Flanders Red that are ready to bottle (>12 months old) and am thinking about brewing a fast version as well to compare. I'll use your process (co-pitch sacch + brett + gluco, add lacto after a couple of days, add some hop tea after a bit) and add some malt vinegar at bottling (I really like some acetic character in reds). I'm going to call it Milli Vanilli Flanders - it looks like a Flanders, tastes like a Flanders (hopefully), but in my head I'll know it's a fake and a lie!

 

[RPh_Guy]

I'm going to be giving your process a go in the next couple of weeks. I have a few batches of Flanders Red that are ready to bottle (>12 months old) and am thinking about brewing a fast version as well to compare. I'll use your process (co-pitch sacch + brett + gluco, add lacto after a couple of days, add some hop tea after a bit) and add some malt vinegar at bottling (I really like some acetic character in reds). I'm going to call it Milli Vanilli Flanders - it looks like a Flanders, tastes like a Flanders (hopefully), but in my head I'll know it's a fake and a lie!

Very cool, good luck!

 

[Dgallo]

Following my Modern process (high Brett pitch rate, etc), I tend to get reasonably strong Brett flavor very early (right from the beginning) with the couple cultures I've used. With a more traditional process (low pitch rate), it takes at least a few weeks for noticable Brett flavor.
However, I haven't yet used either of those Brett cultures you pitched.

With regard to Brett, there's two aspects to the flavor: Fruity Brett flavor is present at the beginning, which eventually fades. Phenolic funk can sometimes take longer to develop, depending on the culture, and it tends to increase over time.

Traditionally aged beers also usually have strong oxidation character and often have significant autolysis as well, for better or worse depending on your taste.


Pellicle formation is definitely from oxygen exposure. Oxygen can diffuse into the sanitizer and then into the headspace, diffuse straight through vinyl and silicone tubing, and diffuse straight through a HDPE Fermonster lid, for example.

I def have tart citrus, maybe maybe as far melon/tropical fruit but it’s no where as bold as I was expecting. It’s possible that since Imperial has twice the pitch count of other yeast, that it’s masking it because there is a a great bubblegum, clove phenol profile.

 

[Steve-Ooo]

I def have tart citrus, maybe maybe as far melon/tropical fruit but it’s no where as bold as I was expecting. It’s possible that since Imperial has twice the pitch count of other yeast, that it’s masking it because there is a a great bubblegum, clove phenol profile.

Very possible because Yeast Bay brett packs only contain 2 billion cells. That would take a big multi step starter.

 

[Dgallo]

Very possible because Yeast Bay brett packs only contain 2 billion cells. That would take a big multi step starter.

Def possible. I did the starter used in the modern Brett but halved the size since it was being pitched in Just over half the volume. This is my first use of Brett so I could just be expecting more this early on. It’s been a crazy week and I just reviewed my notes and today is only day 7. I think I just need to relax lol

 

[Steve-Ooo]

Yeah I wouldn't worry about. Brett pitch rate isn't very important if you're aging it, hence the often small pitch rates. I'm very interested in what you're doing. I found your thread and will be following.

 

[Dgallo]

Yeah I wouldn't worry about. Brett pitch rate isn't very important if you're aging it, hence the often small pitch rates. I'm very interested in what you're doing. I found your thread and will be following.

Thanks for the reminder, I have to update that lol

 

[RPh_Guy]

I did the starter used in the modern Brett

Did you add yeast nutrient? Which product? How much and in what volume? Was it on a stir plate? How long? At what temp?

There's always going to be a learning curve when attempting such an advanced process.

In this case the Brett propagation certainly could be an issue because a large Brett biomass with active & viable cells is important for quick Brett flavor. If you're starting with a very low biomass, it's absolutely necessary to provide additional nitrogen and other nutrients in order to enable yeast growth. Continuous oxygen also helps significantly.

Personally, I favor adding a quality yeast nutrient rather than using multiple "steps". Both accomplish the same goal of adding more nitrogen and other nutrients. Continuous aeration keeps the yeast in growth phase and helps it synthesize fatty acids for cell membrane expansion, as well as removing CO2.

 

[Steve-Ooo]

I put together a recipe. I call it "Unconvetional Mango". I'm hoping to brew this weekend. I'm just waiting for glucoamylase to come in the mail. I decided to do a 5.5 gallon batch and split it between 2 - 3 gallon Better Bottles. I will follow RPh_Guy s method as closely as possible for 1. The second will be an all Brett yeast fermentation with no enzyme. I'm interested to see not only the differences in the beer itself, but also thw timeline to terminal gravity.
Please feel free to leave any comments or criticism.

5.5 gallon batch to 75% efficiency to an OG of 1.040.


5 lb 14 oz Pilsner - 74.6%
1 lb 12oz Light Munich - 22.2%
4oz Flaked Wheat - 3.2%

Mash @ 149 for 120 minutes.

Boil 15 minutes.

Chill and pull 500ml for lacto starter with 5 Swanson's l. Plantarum tabs.

Rack into 2 carboys.

1 I will pitch
1 rehydrated pack of Belle Saison

500ml of homogenized liquid from an overbuilt starter of Imperial Suburban Brett

Glucoamylase

Ferment at 68 until 20-40% attenuation is reached and pitch half the lacto.

When I'm happy with the profile I'll add

7.5 oz freeze dried mango. (This will add 162 grams of sugar per nutrition facts on the package and should raise gravity by 5-6 points)

.75 oz Strisslespalt 2.2% AA

2nd is the same exept I will pitch ~ 128 billion viable cells from the Suburban Brett starter and omit the sacc and enzyme.

When desired profile is reach I'll bottle condition in heavy champagne bottles.

Kind of going for an unconventional take on a farmhouse ale.

Ps I can swap out the Pilsner for pale ale malt is DMS might be a issue.

Thanks!

 

[RPh_Guy]

Sounds cool, good luck!

 

[Stas StoLat]

@RPh_Guy, Would you mind sharing your wisdom on a post about my sour beer challenges?

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/adding-commercially-produced-keg-beer-to-solera.682159/
I have read your posts and hope you would impart your knowledge on the matter.

 

[hdbii]

I wish to report my results using the Lactobacillus Plantarum (LP) co-pitch method of souring described here.

Summary: It works! I tried co-pitching in several different settings and each time it produced a pleasant souring effect in 2ish+ days. You will need to learn from experience how much souring at fermentation equates with how much sourness in the finished beer but overall this is a quick and natural way to get sourness into the equation. And that’s the bottom line, you can skip the rest of the stuff below which just repeats this in detail and get to souring!

Biases, sources, and conflicts: I’m lazy, cheap, and curious. Really like bretted beer (BB) and bretted melomels. Like bretted sour beer (BSA) and sour beer (SB). I’ve included bretted dry-hopped melomels (BDHM) here because they are an easy way to get to a bretted, moderately sour, highly carbonated, highly alcoholic beverage that tastes great and the process is very similar to making a bretted beer. Since my pH meter long ago fell into disuse and I want to avoid the whole pH/TA/perception scrum I will use “baseline” (think average non-sour beer), “slightly sour” (think apple juice, pH 3.8ish, more TA), “moderately sour” (think pineapple juice, pH 3.5ish, more TA), “very sour” (think your fav most sour beer, pH 3.2ish, even more TA) and “acidic” (think vinegar or straight cranberry juice, pH 2.2ish, lots of TA). Using your taste buds only to perceive an increase in TA as the wort/must ferments (with the decrease in sugars and the ostensible increase in lactic acid) should appropriately be viewed with skepticism. LP was from Swanson in capsules, which were pulled apart and sprinkled on top of the wort/must. Brettanomyces Bruxellensis (BB) was a scion of OYL-212. Saccharomyces cerevisiae (SC) was Hornindal OYL-091, the current house yeast.

Results co-pitching LP with BB and SC in melomels: This may seem off topic but from the fermentation vessel on, the process is very similar whether you are working with wort or a fruit juice and honey must. I tried this first with a store bought pasteurized apple juice. I had a BB/SC yeast cake already going when I first read this article. Knowing that AJ usually produced only a slightly sour BDHM I wanted to see how this process would help push this into the moderately sour category. I added juice and 0.7 lbs of honey per gallon of AJ to the yeast cake with two capsules of LP. I sampled the fermenting must every 12 hours or so. At 48 hours the melomel was clearly more sour than the original juice. At 60 hours it reached what I thought was a solid moderately sour character and transferred it to a keg with 2 ounces of cascade whole hops and a small dextrose charge. I also filled and capped 2 bottles that I have since sampled to judge the sour level and still think it is decidedly more sour than the baseline juice would have been.

Next up I tried this with store bought pasteurized pineapple juice. From past experience I know this will produce a solid, moderately sour BDHM but wanted to see if I could push it into the very sour category. Onto the BB/SC/LP yeast cake went juice, 0.4 lbs honey per gallon and 1 capsule of LP. Thought about not using that capsule to see if there was viable LP in the yeast cake but decided I would try that later. Serial tasting of the fermentation revealed a sour must/melomel, but in the malodorous milieu of BB and declining sugar levels it was unclear if it was decidedly more sour than expected. Measuring TA before and after would have been helpful. This was kegged and dry-hopped in the keg at 72 hours and will be compared to other non-LP pineapple BDHM in the future.

Results co-pitching LP and SC in beer: First up a straight sour. 75% pilsner, 25% malted wheat, no hops, very short boil, onto Hornindal, 2 caps LP. Decidedly sour at 56 hours then hop tea and small dry-hop charge added to primary. Kegged at 12 days with dextrose and small dry-hop charge. LP produced a nice, clean moderate sour in only 2ish+ days. At 4 weeks in the keg, this is a solid sour, slightly too sour for my tastes and the grain bill/amount of dry-hops.

Results co-pitching LP with BB and SC in beer: Next up a BSA. 60% pilsner 25% malted wheat 10% cane sugar 5% Vienna, no hops, short boil, onto Hornindal/BB yeast cake with 2 caps LP. Was clearly sour at 48 hours and dry-hops/hop tea added at that point. Left in primary 3 more weeks with dry hops and just recently kegged with small dextrose charge. Too early to assess the overall beer but the LP clearly and swiftly soured it.

Discussion: Using LP resulted in a rapid and pleasant tasting souring effect. Going forward, I will likely use LP in all apple BDHM and some other juice/fruit BDHM. Pineapple, grape, and grape blends bring enough acid to the party for a great BDHM so I will likely not use it there except on rare occasion. Will also use this for future SB and BSA. Will need to learn how the level of perceived sourness in fermenting and finished beer compare. Cheers

 

[RPh_Guy]

@hdbii
I'm curious about your meadmaking process and ingredients. From my understanding, it's difficult to co-sour mead, cider, & wine because the pH is too low during fermentation for Lactobacillus metabolism. You'd need to increase the pH and buffering capacity, or perhaps you have very alkaline water.
Beer naturally has buffer systems that allow souring.

 

[Funky Frank]

Dilute honey is not very acidic (around 6 pH using 7 pH water) and pollen acts as a poor buffer. When making mead you usually need to add an acid or it will be flabby. But I agree when it comes to wine and cider.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Dilute honey is not very acidic (around 6 pH using 7 pH water) and pollen acts as a poor buffer. When making mead you usually need to add an acid or it will be flabby. But I agree when it comes to wine and cider.

It's yeast +/- Lacto fermentation that drops the pH, not the honey itself. A rapidly decreased pH (due to low buffering capacity) prevents significant lactic acid production.

I've heard of people successfully pre-souring mead, but this is the first I've heard of someone successfully co-souring.

 

[Funky Frank]

My mead earlier this year soured but it had other things going on, including a short stall so maybe I accidentally had an almost “pre-sour” going on??? It also was from brood comb so maybe it had better buffering and it was a mixed culture ferm so who knows? I’m certainly going to try again with different scenarios due to my experience and the post from hdbii.

 

[hdbii]

So, I think the question is: how did/did you get lactic acid from LP in fermented juice/honey? The short answer with caveats is: only recently when I tried co-pitching LP with BB/SC did I perceive additional sourness in an apple/honey blend but couldn’t definitively perceive increased sourness in a pineapple/honey blend. Fermented apple juice suffers from many “faults”, among them a lack of residual acid, lack of residual sweetness, and a lack of residual flavor in the final product. In the past I would “correct” those with acid blend or pure cranberry juice, honey, and brett/hops. When I read the LP article I thought it might be a way to add some “natural” sourness. But now you’ve raised some interesting questions about process and the difficulties in souring fruit juices so hopefully I won’t bore you to tears with process stuff.

When I first read this article I was in the middle of a series of BDHM on a BB/SC yeast cake. I plan beers/other in series around yeast/mixed cultures that I serially re-use. I use one stainless and 2 plastic 8ish gallon fermenters with spigots. I use a lot of brett and even some wild ferments but have never had a cross-contamination with non-brett beer because I “pasteurize” everything stainless at 190F for 2 hours and plastic at 140F for 12-15 hours after each series with my sous-vide. When I first tried the LP co-pitch on apple juice/honey the yeast cake had been through several cycles. First, starting from Hornindal only keg dregs it made 2 farmhouse ales then BB was added from house bottle dregs and a grape blend/honey (5.5 gallons grape/pear/peach/apple blend with 2.5 lbs honey, no water, no yeast nutrients) was fermented. Then pineapple juice/honey was fermented (5.5 gallons pineapple juice with 2 lbs honey, no water, no other additives). Between each ferment 90+% of the gunk left at the bottom is poured out. That still leaves 20-50 times the yeast pitch you get from a single liquid yeast pouch. I co-pitch BB because I want to “proof” it before it goes in the keg. So this was the state of the yeast cake (2 beer ferments sans BB and 2 fruit juice/honey ferments with BB). Onto this thinned-out yeast cake went 5.5 gallons of apple juice, 3.8 lbs of honey, 2 caps of LP, no water, no yeast nutrients. Sixty hours in I perceived it to be notably more sour than the baseline juice would be. I also capped 2 bottles of this to taste later with carbonation to see if it really was more sour. Again based on my perception it was notably more sour than expected. But as I pointed out this is perception only. It would be nice to more scientifically test this (see below). Next up I fermented a repeat of the pineapple juice/honey blend thinking I could perceive the sourness with LP because I had just done a non-LP pineapple ferment and I would have a control to taste against. Pineapple juice has more residual acid than apple juice and through the pineapple ferment I could not tell with certainty if it was more sour than it ordinarily would be. So in an apple juice/honey ferment I think I perceived a clear increase in sourness but was not sure in a pineapple juice/honey ferment.

This might be a good point to stop and make some comments before suggesting some easy experimentation. First I’m not sure what you would call the above ferments. There are no water additions (or yeast nutrients added). Honey makes up 25-33% of the fermentable sugars. Pyment, cyser, melomel, pineapple champagne, apple champagne? But then you add the BB, dry-hops and carbonation and you have? The hops really don’t show up in the finished drink, they just provide complex flavor compounds for the brett to remodel/modify. In my mind it falls very, very loosely in a Rodenbach type ferment with more brett more fruit and more alcohol (but obviously fruit instead of malt for fermentables, and no wood aging). Second, the yeast/mixed culture I typically use on fruit juices has usually been through several healthy wort ferments and typically rips through whatever juice/honey must you throw on top of it. Third, not to go down another rabbit hole, but using whole fruit (peaches, pears, bananas, blackberries, raspberries, pineapples) that is blenderized skin and all, mixed with honey, no water and left to spontaneously ferment (sometimes with SC added) under an airlock produces a delicious very sour ferment (with a monster thick “pellicle” riding on top of a lot of pulp) in about 4-6 weeks. I typically use these too-sour-to-drink mash-ups to blend with young beer, gueuze style.

Now to some easy experiments. A small volume (1L?) of AJ, SC, and honey vs. AJ, SC, honey and LP. Likewise with pineapple juice. Would suggest using SC from a beer yeast cake. Check pH, TA, HPLC of both? I’ve already started a small pineapple side by side and will report the results in a few weeks but someone else should also try this to independently report. I will just be reporting perceived sourness as I don’t think I can get my old pH meter up and running and sadly I no longer have access to a lab. Cheers.

 

[Kenmoron]

@RPh_Guy I've just starting using amyloglucosidase in mixed ferm beers for quick packaging. So far I've done a 3 gal batch where I pitched 'Fair Isle' dregs that were propped up to 1L prior to pitching (multiple sacc/brett/lacto/wild microbes). I ended up hitting FG at <30hrs, but waited until day 12 to package (after some oak chips and dry hopping). So far, very satisfied with the result. Initially, it had some good fruity esters and brett funk, but not much sourness at pH 4.07. Fast forward 3 weeks post-packaging and they are now beautifully tart with a pH of 3.72. Not sure how much more sour it will get, but excited to see how it evolves over time.

My next test was a split batch where I did one gallon each of 1.) Belle Saison + Brett c. 2) WB-06 + Brett c. and 3.) more Fair Isle dregs (love this mix). I packaged these after just 6 days as they had the same FG as my initial enzyme batch (1.001). At bottling they were more sacc-expressive on the aroma with some subtle brett flavor. I haven't opened these ones up yet but definitely looking forward to it.

I am excited to get a whole bunch of different mixes going and ageing, and being able to try them every once in a while as they evolve. I like the idea of not having to worry about long fermentations, oxygen exposure, time and energy spent going into sub-par beers, etc (I have a bunch of stuff in barrels and fermenters also going the more traditional route). I am just curious if you are doing/have done the same and could provide any insight into how well these evolve. Do you experience increased complexity as brett metabolizes more in these AMG-enzyme added beers? Any beers gone south over time? Are you able to compare their characteristics to more traditionally-fermented mixed ferm beers? It seems as though very few are doing this technique so I feel like there is something that I am missing.

As for the discussion about products, here is what I use. I dose at just 0.5 mL/gal.

 

[RPh_Guy]

First I’m not sure what you would call the above ferments. There are no water additions (or yeast nutrients added). Honey makes up 25-33% of the fermentable sugars. Pyment, cyser, melomel, pineapple champagne, apple champagne?

I'm comfortable with the term "country wine". I'm also OK with simply the term "wine", which I feel encompasses anything that's not "beer" or "vinegar". Not sure others would agree, but that's a debate for another thread.

Check pH, TA, HPLC of both?

Both pH and TA are easily measurable without HPLC.

Thanks for the explanation! Looking forward to more results and measurements.
Cheers!

I am just curious if you are doing/have done the same and could provide any insight into how well these evolve. Do you experience increased complexity as brett metabolizes more in these AMG-enzyme added beers?

First, I don't have a lot of experience with this process. You guys are helping to pioneer it.
I was inspired by the [limited] info on the MTF wiki about mixed fermentation in under 3 months. I added some tweaks to enhance the process: enzymes to ensure rapid FG and allow greater flexibility, and post-souring to maximize yeast flavor.

That said, my experience has been very positive. I get reasonably strong and delicious Brett flavor within the first couple days. My experience has also shown that the culture will indeed continue to evolve in the bottle. I've added large variety of mixed Brett cultures at bottling to both batches I've made with this method.

One batch I made was very acidic because I didn't add any hops... This beer had less Brett development. Development also depends on the culture; Jolly Pumpkin for example greatly developed even in this very acidic beer (barnyard bomb) whereas all the other cultures had little development.

Brett definitely does not need sugars in order to modify flavor, so the enzyme doesn't inhibit anything.

day 12 to package (after some oak chips

How did the oak chips fare for you? That's not actually something I've tried.

Any beers gone south over time?

Not really. Unfortunately my first batch had a THP issue after bottling, but that eventually aged out. It was better before it oxidized though.

I tend to prefer younger beers, because I like the fruity Brett profile; that's one reason I like this method. However, none of the cultures I've used so far developed any kind of off-flavors over time.

Are you able to compare their characteristics to more traditionally-fermented mixed ferm beers?

It's hard to compare. Every beer is different.
The modern process allows the beer to be consumed very young, before oxidation, so the flavors will be more fresh in general. Malt flavor and hop flavor are so much more vibrant and clear. This goes one step further with low oxygen brewing, but I've been struggling with consistency in that regard and haven't yet attempted a low-oxygen fast funky sour. If you prefer the sherry-like oxidation and meaty-umami flavor resulting from autolysis, then you're probably better off with a traditional process. I'm not sure how to replicate those flavors in a short timeframe.

I intend to see whether I can develop a "modern" blending program -- modern in a sense that it will be fast, consistent, and goal-oriented, but COVID has kind of put a damper on things.

It seems as though very few are doing this technique so I feel like there is something that I am missing.

Very true that no one else is using this method. On MTF I asked what kind of cultures people were using for quick funky fermentations and surprisingly I got zero response. We're on our own I guess.

Looking at your process, the thing I would suggest is propagating the Brett separately. It won't be able to achieve a high cell count in a propagation with Saccharomyces. An active Brett culture with a high cell count seems to be the key to increasing rapid Brett flavor development. I suggest liberal use of a good nutrient in the starter.

Final note: Personal preference comes into play, as always. MTF wiki suggested the Lochristi blend (from TYB) as a good culture for rapid Brett flavor ... I absolutely hated it (co-pitched with WLP644). Subtle strawberry at first, but an unpleasant/astringent "overripeness" phenolic funk quickly took over the profile.

Hope this rambling helps.

 

[Kenmoron]

@RPh_Guy Thanks for the lengthy response and insight. I tend to enjoy the experimental side of homebrewing (background in biochem and am a pharmacist myself), so this has been a lot of fun. And much more rewarding consuming stuff with this kind of complexity within weeks as opposed to years.

How did the oak chips fare for you? That's not actually something I've tried.

I added about 3g/gal of light toast oak chips which only sat for just under a week. I wanted to underdo it rather than overdo it and then adjust as needed on my next batch. This batch came out with a VERY subtle woody flavor that I am sure is going to dissipate quickly. I am going to attempt to add wood chips again in the future and will probably up the dose to 5g/gal. I love a good wood presence in my mixed ferm sours.

Unfortunately my first batch had a THP issue after bottling

Interesting. I had assumed that THP may be a non-issue with these quick sour methods since theoretically oxygen exposure is reduced (much quicker ferment) as well as sacc viability still likely being high. I know there is still a lot of unknowns about THP, but fresh sacc and low oxygen seem to be tools for reducing it.

Looking at your process, the thing I would suggest is propagating the Brett separately

On my first quick sour attempt I wanted to replicate the character of a local brewery using a large mix of sacc/brett/lacto/wild captured things (Fair Isle Brewing). So I propped up bottle dregs for 2 weeks, following by a 1 liter starter that spun for another 10 days or so (2 days open ferment with the remainder having an airlock on the starter to prevent acetic acid production). This was my strategy of giving the brett population an opportunity to build up a bit. I definitely get brett character in this one and it is awesome how reminiscent it is of the Fair Isle beers.

For my split batch, I pitched a half package of fairly fresh WLP 645 along with a more standard sacc pitch into each of the 2 x 1 gal batches. So technically this was an 'overpitch' of brett in order to make sure there was enough in there to do something more quickly. There is a small amount of brett flavor on these at day 6 when I packaged, and I am hoping that will continue to develop in the bottle. Will probably taste these next week.

Very true that no one else is using this method. On MTF I asked what kind of cultures people were using for quick funky fermentations and surprisingly I got zero response. We're on our own I guess.

I posted about my first beer on MTF a few days ago (Travis Morita) and got a handful of likes with very few responses. One person mentioned doing it and later getting astringency and some solvent character, but that doesn't really make sense to me, especially without seeing any recipe info, etc.

Anyway, hopefully we can slowly share any tips and/or info with each other (and others) as we gain more experience with this process! Cheers!

 

[RPh_Guy]

@Kenmoron
Oak: Please keep us updated if you find a dosage you like. Recently I've been packaging beers after only 3-5 days, so I'm not sure whether I'll be able to extract flavor in this timeframe; I might need to use oak tea.

THP: I left that batch in the fermenter maybe 2-3 months, so it wasn't ideal. However I've noticed THP in Brett starters running only 1-2 weeks (they need to be tasted since THP has no aroma). THP is always lurking around the corner, and prevention is something to keep in mind.

Brett pitching: I would tend to assume any commercial Brett culture has extremely low cell count (or rather, viable biomass) and therefore needs to be propagated for optimal/rapid flavor.

Glad you're seeing success! Thanks for sharing!

 

[orangemen5]

So I did the post souring method. Im disappointed it only turned out only very mildly tart. Trying to figure out what I did wrong and maybe sour it more if possible.
My process was a normal mash. Pilsner / Wheat, sparge ,full boil , NO HOPS. Og 1.032 Fg 1.009 . I pre acidified the wort. I dont have a ph meter but I read about 15 drops of lactic acid will get you within range after a boil. I pitched Keivk yeast then a quart of goodbelly mango 8 hrs into fermentation. Sat for 2 weeks and then added an ounce of dry hops.
I'm thinking the problem was a lack of making a lacto starter or the good belly was approaching its expire date. I'm not sure how far out they date their product.
Not sure where to go from here. Would like to get it more sour if possible. Worst case is drink it as is

 

[Gnomebrewer]

I pitched Keivk yeast then a quart of goodbelly mango 8 hrs into fermentation.

That's the issue - kveik would have produced lots of alcohol by the time you pitched the Lactobacillus, which slows souring. If you want to pitch Lacto into an actively fermenting beer, try using a starter for the bacteria.

Edit: in 1.032 wort, kveik might have just about finished off after 8 hours of activity!

 

[orangemen5]

The only reason I didn’t make a starter was I didn’t have calcium carbonate. But I do now.
I was trying to get some Kveik Voss Yeast expression before souring. The beer does have a nice orangey flavor to it.
I wonder if the post sour method is possible with kveik yeast since It works so fast. Maybe pitch it even sooner. 3-4 hours in.
Is there anyway to quickly re sour this beer? It’s been dry hopped now so L planetarium probably won’t work.
I was thinking maybe add some Brett and/or dregs and turn it into a long term sour.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I wonder if the post sour method is possible with kveik yeast since It works so fast. Maybe pitch it even sooner. 3-4 hours in.

Yes, it's possible! I suggest pitching the bacteria at around 20–40% of the expected attenuation. Fermentation times vary, so it's hard to give a specific timeframe.

Is there anyway to quickly re sour this beer? It’s been dry hopped now so L planetarium probably won’t work.

Blending is pretty straightforward if you want it done relatively quickly. Brew another batch supplemented with calcium carbonate and with an earlier pitch of bacteria. Mix them together when it's done.

Turning it into a long-term sour is perfectly fine too if you'd rather.

Hope this makes sense.