Fast Souring - Modern Methods

[RPh_Guy]

Making sour beer doesn't need to be complicated!
These techniques are a good alternative to the antiquated kettle souring method.

Co-Souring Method:

• Make unhopped wort. Chill as normal.
• Pitch Lactobacillus plantarum and the yeast of your choice.
• Ferment as normal, at 65°F or higher.
• Optional/recommended add hops when it reaches the desired sourness. (Dry hops or hop tea)
• Package as normal.

Post-Souring Method:
Same as co-souring, except pitch the Lactobacillus after 1-2 days of fermentation (or 8-12 hours if using kveik and fermenting hot).

Post-souring is designed to maximize yeast flavor. It's great if you want to use an estery yeast like WLP644 (Sacc Trois) for example, which adds a nice tropical pineapple & mango profile.


FAQ
Q: Won't the Lacto ruin my equipment or contaminate my other beers?
A: No. Normal cleaning and sanitation procedures easily remove L. plantarum. Furthermore, L. plantarum is extremely hop-sensitive and will not sour your clean beers with hops, even if you directly add it. These techniques actually have LESS risk overall of contamination compared to kettle souring.

Q: Where do I get L. plantarum?
A: Several sources are readily available in the US: Swanson's L. plantarum capsules can be purchased online. GoodBelly liquid probiotic and Renew Life Ultimate Flora are both widely available in stores. Many are now even keeping the Renew Life refrigerated, which is awesome. Lallemand offers pure L. plantarum as WildBrew Sour Pitch. Other yeast labs sell Lacto blends of L. plantarum mixed with other species, often L. brevis (use these blends at your own risk because they are more hop-tolerant).
Store the Lacto in the refrigerator. The dry capsules will last a very long time.

Q: Do I need to make a starter for the Lacto?
A: Using a starter is highly recommended to ensure the culture is active.
Starter procedure for co-souring: 1-2 days before brewing, make about 200-500mL unhopped wort in a sanitary container. Add the Lacto and a few grams of calcium carbonate. Cover and let sit at room temp. When pitching, decant it off of the calcium carbonate.
Starter procedure for post-souring: After chilling, drain about 200-500mL wort into a sanitized jar. Add the Lacto and a few grams of calcium carbonate. Cover and let sit at room temp. When pitching, decant it off of the calcium carbonate.
The calcium carbonate is not completely necessary but it helps increase the Lacto growth.

Q: How much Lacto do I pitch?
A: Pitch rate isn't very important, but using a starter (at least 200mL per 5 gal) is the best way to ensure the culture will sour quickly.

Q: Won't it take months to sour?
A. No. L. plantarum sours quickly (within a couple days) anywhere in the range of 65-100°F. It will finish in the same timeframe as non-sour beer. I've gone from grain to packaging in 3 days.

Q: How long should I boil the wort?
A: Boiling is entirely optional since we don't need to isomerize alpha acids in hops. Mash temperature pasteurizes the wort.

Q: What amount of hops should I add?
A: Anywhere from 0.5 oz to 1 oz per 5 gallons adds a nice hop character (in my opinion) and completely inhibits further souring.

Q: Do the bacteria add flavor?
A: Generally, yes, depending on the source of L. plantarum you use. Frequently the Lacto contributes a nice lemony citrus tartness, notes of berry and melon, and possibly some slight funk. Adding hops after reaching desired sourness will reduce the funk complexity. The Renew Life blend probably adds more flavor than a single species culture and it also creates a more funky profile when used at high temperature (e.g. when souring with kveik at 95°F).

Q: Will it continue to sour if I don't add hops?
A: Yes, possibly, but Lacto's ability to produce acid is self-limiting. Normally this species finishes around pH 3.1-3.3.

Q: What is hop tea?
A: Boil the hops for 5-10 minutes in 300-500mL of chlorine-free water. Dump it into your batch. If you add it at bottling, strain through a hop sock. Added bitterness will be minimal.

Q: Do I need a pH meter?
A: Not really. If you're inclined to stop the souring before it finishes naturally, you can do it by taste.

Q: Do I need to pre-acidify the wort?
A: Nope!

Q: Should I pitch more yeast than normal, or add yeast at bottling?
A: Nope!

Q: Can I use yeast cake from a previous batch?
A: Only if there were absolutely no hops in the batch from which you harvested it.

Q: Will the beer benefit from aging?
A: Nope!

Q: Is this beer probiotic?
A: Yes!

Please share your experience with these techniques. Happy to answer any questions!
Cheers!

 

[shortyz]

great post rph. im never switching from swansons plantarum, best stuff there is!

for the cost of a ph meter i think its a good investment, a sour at 3.2 is far diff then one at 3.4.

 

[RPh_Guy]

for the cost of a ph meter i think its a good investment, a sour at 3.2 is far diff then one at 3.4.

I totally agree

 

[Funky Frank]

I agree that a pH meter is a useful (not essential) tool for your sour brewery but tasting is an essential tool. Remember that pucker = TA (titratable acidity) and not pH.

Examples to help
Splitting sours into 2 groups of clean (sours made like the methods discussed above ie Berliners, Gose, Sour Ale) and dirty (Flanders, Lambics, Wild Ale). Two “clean” sours with pH readings both at 3.2 likely have very close TA’s while two “dirty” sours with pH readings both at 3.2 MAY have different TA’s and have quite a different perceived pucker (likely due to variations in the more numerous and complex acids).

Take Home
New sour brewers, remember that a pH meter is NOT essential to get started.

Sour junkies that just got a pH meter, don’t stop tasting.

Also, while I’m throwing my 2 cents around... I’m glad to see a move away from the sour kettle method, but there is still a place for it. Especially for new sour brewers that are just a little nervous.

 

[brownni5]

Also, low pH may not always be the goal. A Saison at pH = 3.7 can be wonderfully complex. My sours got much better once I gave up trying to achieve a surprising pucker factor.

 

[bjhbrew]

Great post rph! I’ve never dipped my toes into sour brewing because it seemed like it would be too complicated, take too long, or give unpredictable results. The method you outlined looks clear and concise with no need for extra fermentation gear so I’d like to give it a try.

The only question I have is: are you able to predict ibu levels when using a hop tea post fermentation? I imagine a dry hop only beer could come across as cloyingly sweet; or is that not a concern when brewing a sour?

 

[RPh_Guy]

@Funky Frank
You are completely right that TA is a much better measurement of sour taste. Even beyond that, other factors can affect the perception of acidity like the dryness of the beer, the water mineral profile, and the acid profile (as you mentioned).

Kettle souring is touted as decreasing risk of contamination. That was true when wild microbes were primarily being used to sour (i.e. a handful of grain).
Now, with modern L. plantarum cultures, it actually increases risk of contamination. Wort sitting in the kettle for days is prone to picking up wild microbes, especially for beginners who may not yet fully understand proper clean technique or keeping out air from thermal contraction.

@brownni5
Good point. My experience is similar, but I do like at least a moderate sourness. These techniques allow for much greater yeast expression, so there's much better supporting flavors compared to more one-note kettle sours. Less reason to go extremely sour.

@bjhbrew
The acidity balances the sweetness, even without any hops (FYI dry hopping does add some bitterness).
The theoretical max IBU level is about 100 IBU, so you can calculate the IBU of the batch with a blending calculation.
Here's the calculator that I use: http://www.fermcalc.com/FermCalcJS.html
For example, a half liter of 100 IBU tea in a 5 gallon batch gives about 3 IBU.

I have good results adding hops at bottling with a hop tea. I strain it through a hop sock, but also dip that in the beer. I haven't gotten a noticeable bitterness in my trials so far. Maybe dumping in all the hops would add more bitterness; I'm not sure.

Commercial sours are often way too sweet for my taste because they have unfermented fruit sugar. I don't add fruit because yeast, hops, and malt add much better flavor to beer in my opinion.

I hope you give it a try
Cheers

 

[Miraculix]

Don't use the 100ibu assumption for water, it's for wort. Water can solve much much more ibus than wort.

You are kind of a funky guy yourself, I also like funky beer, do you think that the "old school" way of souring (ie hand of grain, not the lab cultures) gives more character and funk than using the lab stuff or goodbelly etc?

It would probably take much longer due to mixed contamination, wouldn't it?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Don't use the 100ibu assumption for water, it's for wort. Water can solve much much more ibus than wort.

I wonder why we have different results from this.
Do you add all the hop matter in the tea to the beer or do you filter it out?
How long do you boil it?

do you think that the "old school" way of souring (ie hand of grain, not the lab cultures) gives more character and funk than using the lab stuff or goodbelly etc?

Good question.
I haven't tried it. My guess is yes, it would be more funky, and not necessarily good.
And yes, to safely bottle it you'd need to give it several weeks to months to make sure the FG is stable (unless you use a highly attenuating diastaticus yeast or glucoamylase enzyme to bottom out the gravity).
The Renew Life blend I use contributes pretty decent flavor. At some point I'll try some side-by-side experiments with other cultures.

I'd be more inclined to experiment with wild cultures in a beer with Brett, because it eats a lot of off-flavors.

 

[Miraculix]

I wonder why we have different results from this.
Do you add all the hop matter in the tea to the beer or do you filter it out?
How long do you boil it?


Good question.
I haven't tried it. My guess is yes, it would be more funky, and not necessarily good.
And yes, to safely bottle it you'd need to give it several weeks to months to make sure the FG is stable (unless you use a highly attenuating diastaticus yeast or glucoamylase enzyme to bottom out the gravity).
The Renew Life blend I use contributes pretty decent flavor. At some point I'll try some side-by-side experiments with other cultures.

I'd be more inclined to experiment with wild cultures in a beer with Brett, because it eats a lot of off-flavors.

I boiled it like a typical bittering addition, 60 minutes, hop matter removed afterwards.

 

[deeve007]

From this sour / gose lover, I huge thanks @RPh_Guy for all your info here and elsewhere in the forum on this! My first ever sour seems to be coming along great going on the small samples I've pulled a couple of times...

 

[RPh_Guy]

I boiled it like a typical bittering addition, 60 minutes, hop matter removed afterwards.

Maybe you're right and it's just the boil length that makes the difference then. I've gently boiled mine only 5-10 mins and then chill with an ice bath.

@deeve007
Glad to help!

 

[Miraculix]

Maybe you're right and it's just the boil length that makes the difference then. I've gently boiled mine only 5-10 mins and then chill with an ice bath.

@deeve007
Glad to help!

Ahhhhh, that really might be it. I overread your boil length. As you are not after huge ibus in this type of beer anyway, this makes perfect sense.

I might try brewing a session sour soon, I brewed quite a few sours in the past, but none of them intentionally

Next on my list is a session saison and after that, a low abv sour might be next. Something between 2.5 and 3%. I'll probably use a hop tea addition to stop the souring at one point. Not sure about the yeast though. I'll probably go with bry97 as I can get this repacked for 1.5 pounds per pack. Or would it benefit in any way from more yeast character? I think the same company sells als London ESB for 1.5 pounds, maybe I'll go with that instead.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Not sure about the yeast though. I'll probably go with bry97 as I can get this repacked for 1.5 pounds per pack. Or would it benefit in any way from more yeast character?

It's hard to go wrong.
If desired, you can always add whatever hops or other flavorings you like, so you don't necessarily need a flavorful yeast.
Short boil hop tea has been amazing at adding flavor in my experience.

Splitting batches is always an option too since you bottle. I'm really tempted to list about a dozen possibilities but that's a little off track.

 

[Miraculix]

It's hard to go wrong.
If desired, you can always add whatever hops or other flavorings you like, so you don't necessarily need a flavorful yeast.
Short boil hop tea has been amazing at adding flavor in my experience.

Splitting batches is always an option too since you bottle. I'm really tempted to list about a dozen possibilities but that's a little off track.

Since it's going to be a session beer anyway, I think I'll go with the London ESB as it leaves a bit more body than 97. Let's see what I will dig out for souring though. I'm in Britain so the brands area different ones here.

 

[Miraculix]

What do you think about the following mix?

L paracasei

Lactobacillus Rhamnosus GG (LGG)

Lactobacillus plantarum

It's a cheap probiotic mix, sold on Amazon UK.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Probio-Plu...1568545612&s=gateway&sprefix=plantarum&sr=8-1

They got a more complex mix as well but that one includes inulin which I probably don't want on my beer?

It would be,

Lactobacillus Acidophilus (L.Acidphilus)

Bifidobacterium Lactis (B. Lactis)

Lactobacillus Casei (L.Casei)

Lactobacillus Rhamnosus (L. Rhamnosus)

Lactobacillus Plantarum (L. Plantarum)

Streptococcus Thermophilus (S. Thermophilus)

Inulin (A fibre that cultures can feed from)

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Probiotics...1568545612&s=gateway&sprefix=plantarum&sr=8-2

 

[radwizard]

This is what I ended up doing myself. I abandoned the kettle sour thing pretty quickly. After reading endless posts and threads on the internet of people not being able to get their beer to sour with L.Pl (due to hop useage) I never saw the point in being paranoid of cross contamination with clean beers containing hops.

I have been brewing a lot of Saison lately. I brewed a batch that I soured using this method followed by a dry hop. I let the LAB sour through the entire fermentation before adding any hops. I wanted high acid. I pitched a Brett blend into it and have been using it to blend into clean saisons. The goal is to get nice mellow acidity in my Saisons without ever rolling the dice. So far it has been working out pretty well, and the 5 gallon acid batch ended up going into 3 different clean batches.

 

[radwizard]

End Bacteria Cruelty. Let your Bugs live!!!

 

[Beer666]

Great thread, will be trying this next instead of kettle souring i think. I have co pitched before but was uncertain how much it soured. Perhaps i used too many hops.
Could i also pre sour for say 12 hours then pitch and would i need to avoid aerating the wort?

Boiling hops in water works well for me. I use the technique taught by @Miraculix but i only boil 1 lire of water. Its more than enough for a 25l batch and if i aim for 20 IBU i am confident that is what i get. After a 30 minute boil i am left with about 300-500ml of tea. Normally boil in a bag but i have thrown the whole lot in before without issues.

 

[RPh_Guy]

What do you think about the following mix?
L paracasei
Lactobacillus Rhamnosus GG (LGG)
Lactobacillus plantarum
It's a cheap probiotic mix, sold on Amazon UK.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Probio-Plu...1568545612&s=gateway&sprefix=plantarum&sr=8-1

Looks good to me!

Could i also pre sour for say 12 hours then pitch

You sure can, however pre-souring increases your contamination risk and provides zero benefit.

You don't need to avoid aeration, Lactobacillus is a facultative anaerobe, meaning it's indifferent to the presence of oxygen.

Cheers

 

[munk24]

Looks like these all came right out of the Milk the Funk Wiki milkthefunk.com/wiki

The Devin Bell Reverse Method,

For more information on these, Check out Milk the Funk "The Podcast"
especially the "Kettle Sour" and the "Lactobacillus" podcasts. www.milkthefunk.live or on Itunes or your favorite podcast service.

Making sour beer doesn't need to be complicated!
These techniques are a good alternative to the antiquated kettle souring method.

Co-Souring Method:

• Make unhopped wort. Chill as normal.
• Pitch Lactobacillus plantarum and the yeast of your choice.
• Ferment as normal, at 65°F or higher.
• Optional/recommended add hops when it reaches the desired sourness. (Dry hops or hop tea)
• Package as normal.

Post-Souring Method:
Same as co-souring, except pitch the Lactobacillus after 1-2 days of fermentation (or 8-12 hours if using kveik and fermenting hot).

Post-souring is designed to maximize yeast flavor. It's great if you want to use an estery yeast like WLP644 (Sacc Trois) for example, which adds a nice tropical pineapple & mango profile.


FAQ
Q: Won't the Lacto ruin my equipment or contaminate my other beers?
A: No. Normal cleaning and sanitation procedures easily remove L. plantarum. Furthermore, L. plantarum is extremely hop-sensitive and will not sour your clean beers with hops, even if you directly add it. These techniques actually have LESS risk overall of contamination compared to kettle souring.

Q: Where do I get L. plantarum?
A: Several sources are readily available in the US: Swanson's L. plantarum capsules can be purchased online. GoodBelly liquid probiotic and Renew Life Ultimate Flora are both widely available in stores. Many are now even keeping the Renew Life refrigerated, which is awesome. Lallemand offers pure L. plantarum as WildBrew Sour Pitch. Other yeast labs sell Lacto blends of L. plantarum mixed with other species, often L. brevis (use these blends at your own risk because they are more hop-tolerant).
Store the Lacto in the refrigerator. The dry capsules will last a very long time.

Q: Do I need to make a starter for the Lacto?
A: It's not needed, however if you use the post-souring process, I do recommend a starter.
Starter procedure: After chilling, drain about 200-500mL wort into a sanitized jar. Add the Lacto and a few grams of calcium carbonate. Cover and let sit at room temp. When pitching, decant it off of the calcium carbonate (you don't want the chalk in your beer).

Q: How much Lacto do I pitch?
A: Pitch rate isn't very important. Feel free to use 1-2 capsules or a few ounces of GoodBelly in 5 gallons.

Q: Won't it take months to sour?
A. No. L. plantarum sours quickly (within a couple days) anywhere in the range of 65-100°F. It will finish in the same timeframe as non-sour beer. I've gone from grain to packaging in 3 days.

Q: How long should I boil the wort?
A: Boiling is entirely optional since we don't need to isomerize alpha acids in hops. Mash temperature pasteurizes the wort.

Q: What amount of hops should I add?
A: Anywhere from 0.5 oz to 1 oz per 5 gallons adds a nice hop character (in my opinion) and completely inhibits further souring.

Q: Do the bacteria add flavor?
A: Generally, yes, depending on the source of L. plantarum you use. Frequently the Lacto contributes a nice lemony citrus tartness, notes of berry and melon, and possibly some slight funk. Adding hops after reaching desired sourness will reduce the funk complexity. The Renew Life blend probably adds more flavor than a single species culture and it also creates a more funky profile when used at high temperature (e.g. when souring with kveik at 95°F).

Q: Will it continue to sour if I don't add hops?
A: Yes, possibly, but Lacto's ability to produce acid is self-limiting. Normally this species finishes around pH 3.1-3.3.

Q: What is hop tea?
A: Boil the hops for 5-10 minutes in 300-500mL of chlorine-free water. Dump it into your batch. If you add it at bottling, strain through a hop sock. Added bitterness will be minimal.

Q: Do I need a pH meter?
A: Not really. If you're inclined to stop the souring before it finishes naturally, you can do it by taste.

Q: Do I need to pre-acidify the wort?
A: Nope!

Q: Should I pitch more yeast than normal, or add yeast at bottling?
A: Nope!

Q: Can I use yeast cake from a previous batch?
A: Only if there were absolutely no hops in the batch from which you harvested it.

Q: Will the beer benefit from aging?
A: Nope!

Q: Is this beer probiotic?
A: Yes!

Please share your experience with these techniques. Happy to answer any questions!
Cheers!

 

[RPh_Guy]

Looks like these all came right out of the Milk the Funk Wiki

It's true I didn't invent the wheel. I never said I did.

MTF has been a great resource and a huge help. However, MTF only briefly mentions co-souring and post-souring as a possibility (for Lacto sours), they do not promote it, explain it very well, or tout its benefits.
For example look at their Berliner and Gose recipes; they pre-sour them.

I've definitely expanded what's in their wiki regarding these methods, which is buried on a somewhat obscure page:
http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Alternative_Bacteria_Sources
I've combined all the relevant info into one place and made it easily digestible.

I've used this technique many times, and have helped other homebrewers do the same, with great success. This info I've shared is from our combined experience, obviously not just pasted from a wiki.

Do you care to contribute? Have you tried these methods? How was you experience?



P.S. Some day I will also share/promote methods for making fast sours with Brett, which you can also find on the MTF wiki, but again the info there is lacking. I'm still experimenting and gathering data.
Most people think Brett sours require months or years to make. They don't. The traditional methods are outdated.

 

[munk24]

Its good to see the information out there, maybe some attribution to the people and the page who championed these techniques and Goodbelly or L.Plantarum as souring bacteria? Have I tried this method.. Of course, many times as a homebrewer and a brewer at VonSeitz TheoreticAles and with Devin who was the person to first desseminate the method, so much so its referred to as the Devin Bell Reverse Kettle Sour Method for the last several years. Ive kettle soured as a homebrewer, but we dont kettle sour at VonSeitz. The method has been talked about many times on the page and on the Podcast which I host and on videos on the MTF page. From the responses you got there is still a lot of people who dont know or understand and I think you did a good job of listing the information. Also be careful how you put it, as Brett does not sour by itself or as Brandon Jones of Embrace The Funk says Brett does not equal sour. Cheers -Art Whitaker

 

[RPh_Guy]

maybe some attribution to the people and the page who championed these techniques and Goodbelly or L.Plantarum as souring bacteria?

I have no problem giving credit where credit is due. I simply don't know the history. If you feel the need to assign credit, please feel free to link to the specific videos or podcasts you're referencing!

It seems to me over 90% of commercial and homebrew fast sour beers are kettle soured, so word hasn't really gotten around. I honestly haven't seen Devin Bell mentioned outside that one small spot on the MTF wiki, and that doesn't say he's the "inventor" of these methods. Even in the MTF Facebook group, people are very unfamiliar with these techniques of co-souring and post-souring.

Cheers

 

[munk24]

As an administrator, I see it all the time and there have been numerous times its been mentioned, however we add almost 100 new members a week so they are always people asking questions on how to do things. Ive probably answered a kettle souring or reverse kettle souring question 500 times, Its why we have over 25,000 members just on the Facebook group page. Kettle souring is still a preferred method for many homebrewers and commercial breweries, because it lessens the risk of infection from lacto, pedio or any of the other souring organisms. At VonSeitz we actually contract sours for several breweries because they want a more complex beer than simple kettle souring, but are afraid of contamination OF their core beers and dont want to risk dumping a 30 barrel batch. The method you have talked about is one we use frequently and works very well. As Ive mentioned you summarized the technique very well. --Art

 

[RPh_Guy]

Well, thank you, and thanks to you, Dan, and others for creating/managing the MTF wiki and group. It really is a great resource.

Kettle souring is still a preferred method for many homebrewers and commercial breweries, because it lessens the risk of infection from lacto

I don't see how this is a possibility when L. plantarum is used as the only microbe in combination with Sacc. It has a ridiculously low hop tolerance, giving it zero chance of contaminating other beers.

 

[deeve007]

As an administrator, I see it all the time and there have been numerous times its been mentioned, however we add almost 100 new members a week so they are always people asking questions on how to do things. Ive probably answered a kettle souring or reverse kettle souring question 500 times, Its why we have over 25,000 members just on the Facebook group page. Kettle souring is still a preferred method for many homebrewers and commercial breweries, because it lessens the risk of infection from lacto, pedio or any of the other souring organisms. At VonSeitz we actually contract sours for several breweries because they want a more complex beer than simple kettle souring, but are afraid of contamination OF their core beers and dont want to risk dumping a 30 barrel batch. The method you have talked about is one we use frequently and works very well. As Ive mentioned you summarized the technique very well. --Art

Then as an administrator, you should be aware that a previous time I posted something in your facebook group asking a question with regards to the quick sour method, I received some quite rude responses from a few of your group members (longer term group members from the tone of their responses) about the timeframe I was talking about, basically insinuating I was an idiot, and rude enough that I removed my post. So this technique is obviously news to at least a few of your group members... along with etiquette towards new group members/brewers.

And in comparison, I have had nothing but support and respectful interactions on this forum, even to very obvious newbie questions.

 

[RPh_Guy]

It seems like Facebook has that effect on people.

 

[deeve007]

It seems like Facebook has that effect on people.

Indeed, though it was my first experience of it amongst the home brewing community, which was probably the biggest surprise. Maybe I was being a little naive...?

 

[jready]

[QUOTE="RPh_Guy, post:

P.S. Some day I will also share/promote methods for making fast sours with Brett, which you can also find on the MTF wiki, but again the info there is lacking. I'm still experimenting and gathering data.
Most people think Brett sours require months or years to make. They don't. The traditional methods are outdated.[/QUOTE]

Quick question on this as I have been kicking this idea around after binge listening to the sour hour. Initially I was thinking of kettle souring and then pitching the mad fermentationist blend from Bootleg that has Sac and Brett, it has become my go to for all funky Saisons. Now I’m thinking of using your method. Is that kind of where you are going with your fast sour with Brett?

I love this idea as I am a huge fan of Brett and the more I play with it and try commercial Brett beers the more I like it. I think this method with some experimentation are puns strains of Brett could yield some great results. I think I’m preferences are more towards funky Brett with a back note of sour.

 

[Miraculix]

@RPh_Guy

Regarding the fast brett process, I am assuming that a lot of the brett flavour comes from brett consuming dead yeast. So how about first pitching anamylase enzyme so that the brett and normal yeast can eat all the available sugars quickly and then, to speed things up further and not to not have to wait for the normal yeast to die, pitch some boiled bread yeast for the brett to digest to create funk? Ever tried that?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Is that kind of where you are going with your fast sour with Brett?

I explain the method I'm currently using on this thread:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/bottling-with-brett.667180/

You can also read about it in the MTF wiki under mixed fermentation - under 3 months.

More experiments are needed before I want to advocate that as the best method though. It's a much more complex process than these Lacto/Sacc sours. The devil is in the details.

@RPh_Guy

Regarding the fast brett process, I am assuming that a lot of the brett flavour comes from brett consuming dead yeast. So how about first pitching anamylase enzyme so that the brett and normal yeast can eat all the available sugars quickly and then, to speed things up further and not to not have to wait for the normal yeast to die, pitch some boiled bread yeast for the brett to digest to create funk? Ever tried that?

Good thinking! I actually mention that as a theoretical possibility in this thread:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/maximizing-barnyard-horse-blanket.669188/
My current thought is that blending will be needed to create the desired profile in such an accelerated timeframe. One sour batch with fruity Brett character (which really is a fantastic beer by itself) and one batch optimized for barnyard funk.

Cheers

 

[DiscDuffer]

Where was this 6-7 months ago? Would have saved me some worry! I used the "post-souring method," waited for fermentation to be over then racked on fruit. I also would repitch the slurry for the "co-souring method."

I did not see either of these methods spelled out in the Milk The Funk wiki. I know the Germans have not been, traditionally, kettle souring and I could not figure out a practical way for me to do it. I do believe the original Berliner Weisse had brett in it, but without brett it should be done much quicker.

After my first 'quick sour,' as I like to call them, was done I gave one to my pro brewer friend and laughed about how much easier my process was. He said they also pitch the Lactobacillus plantarum into the fermentor. We had both come to the conclusion that when santizing one of the things we a trying to kill is Lacto, so why make things more difficult.

I did not think that mashing was enough for pasteurization so sparge into my kettle and get it to 180*F for 15 min.

 

[radwizard]

I really don't think anyone needs to give credit for a souring method. This is just co-pitching home brewed beer, right?
I agree that "The Reverse Kettle Sour" is not easy to stumble upon on the wiki. There is a good thread about in in the FB group, but it is not something that frequently comes up.

Kudos for the instructional, it should be stickied. And it it were to be stickied in our sub-forum, make sure you give credit to the proper groups when telling forum users to read the sticky!

 

[Beer666]

I have found a mashout at 75c is enough to pasteurise the wort. I recirculate and hold it for 10 minutes and that does the trick.
I have a co pitched brew going with Omega Labs lacto and farmhouse Voss. Really looking forward to this. Fermenting at 27c.

 

[deeve007]

Co-pitching with WildBrew Sour Pitch it was fine fermenting at room temps, around 17-21c. The passionfruit sour I made was as good as many I've purchased, and with the simplest recipe imaginable.

 

[Miraculix]

Co-pitching with WildBrew Sour Pitch it was fine fermenting at room temps, around 17-21c. The passionfruit sour I made was as good as many I've purchased, and with the simplest recipe imaginable.

Passion fruit sour sounds really good to me. If I'd have access to cheap pain fruits, I'd definitely be brewing it.

 

[Miraculix]

Passion fruit sir sounds really good to me. If I'd have access to cheap pain fruits, I'd definitely be brewing it.

Bloody hell, I just remembered that I have a kg of pure passion fruit puree at home! Now I know what to brew with it!!!

 

[RPh_Guy]

I have found a mashout at 75c is enough to pasteurise the wort. I recirculate and hold it for 10 minutes and that does the trick.

Every normal mash schedule provides more than enough Pasteurization Units to kill any microbes in the wort.

I would like to make a sour with Voss. I think it'll be awesome! Good luck.

passionfruit sour

Passionfruit is one of very few fruits I actually like in beer. Petrus Passionfruit is really good if you can find it.

 

[deeve007]

Bloody hell, I just remembered that I have a kg of pure passion fruit puree at home! Now I know what to brew with it!!!

Yep, I used puree and it worked great!! And I just used a 50% pilsen, 50% wheat grain mix as you'll see from a post I created about my sour, and it turned out so good! I might add a little oats next time to add some "creaminess" to see how that goes...

I've found raspberry is also excellent for sours, so will do a batch with those one day. And the best sour/gose I've had was a salted plum gose, from Beerfarm in Australia, incredible beer!!