• We have a new forum and it needs your help! Homebrewing Deals is a forum to post whatever deals and specials you find that other homebrewers might value! Includes coupon layering, Craigslist finds, eBay finds, Amazon specials, etc.

Fast Souring - Modern Methods

HomeBrewTalk.com - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Community.

Help Support Homebrew Talk:

ryking13

New Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2020
Messages
4
Reaction score
2
The one I got from either RPh or another sour brewer here which has worked amazingly for a few sours/goses is simply a 50/50 pilsener/wheat grain bill, US 05 yeast, co-pitching with my Lacto source and then dry hopping once desired sourness reached. Then I vary this with whatever adjuncts I want to add for any particular batch.
Oh ok, so basically same bill as a hefe? Cool, thanks! That's easy enough.
 

deeve007

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2019
Messages
343
Reaction score
176
Location
Aussie in Buenos Aires
Oh ok, so basically same bill as a hefe? Cool, thanks! That's easy enough.
Yep, simple as, which is why I liked it as a starting base. Now I've brewed a few and have this "base" recipe down pat, I can now experiment with a few different grains, yeasts, hops, adjuncts ...etc for my next few sour brews.

Also note, when I brewed my first sour, even though I racked onto passion fruit in secondary, I made sure to bottle a couple of litres before doing so, so with ONLY the base recipe ingredients and no adjuncts. This came out a lovely lemony flavour, and showed me what the base flavour is I have to work with.
 

tizoc

Member
Joined
May 19, 2020
Messages
15
Reaction score
11
I tried this method with a 1.042OG 40/60 pils/wheat gose (10g crushed coriander, 13g sea salt) using WLP029 and the post-souring method (made a lacto starter with 300ml of wort from brewday because my capsules where expired, pitched into the fermenting beer 24hs later). No hops added.

@ryking13 but you should be able to use any recipe, if you see anything you like just give it a try.
 
OP
RPh_Guy

RPh_Guy

Bringing Sour Back
Joined
Jan 26, 2017
Messages
8,999
Reaction score
7,372
Location
Cleveland
@RPh_Guy sorry if this has been asked but do you have a basic starter recipe to try this method for my first sour? I typically do all-grain BIAB. Thanks!
I would have to say 70:30 2-row:wheat malt to around 1.050 s.g., mash at 152°F (67°C), short boil, co-pitch L. plantarum culture with WLP644 (or equivalent), ferment at 68-72°F (20-22°C) allowing free rise. Add hops of your choice (e.g. Czech Saaz 0.5oz per 5 gal) before packaging.

Pretty any sour recipe you find can be adjusted to use modern methods, so it's all good.

See the Recipes section on my wiki for some ideas:
 

ryking13

New Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2020
Messages
4
Reaction score
2
I would have to say 70:30 2-row:wheat malt to around 1.050 s.g., mash at 152°F (67°C), short boil, co-pitch L. plantarum culture with WLP644, ferment at 68-72°F (20-22°C) allowing free rise. Add hops of your choice (e.g. Czech Saaz 0.5oz per 5 gal) before packaging.

Pretty any sour recipe you find can be adjusted to use modern methods, so it's all good.
Thanks!
 

Steve-Ooo

Active Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2018
Messages
43
Reaction score
14
Does anyone have experience post souring or co pitching with sacc and brett vs 100 percent brett fermentation? I'm planning a mango funky sour with a quick turn around.
 
OP
RPh_Guy

RPh_Guy

Bringing Sour Back
Joined
Jan 26, 2017
Messages
8,999
Reaction score
7,372
Location
Cleveland
Does anyone have experience post souring or co pitching with sacc and brett vs 100 percent brett fermentation? I'm planning a mango funky sour with a quick turn around.
Yep, I've done a couple.
See my wiki the for modern process I recommend:
 

Steve-Ooo

Active Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2018
Messages
43
Reaction score
14
Yep, I've done a couple.
See my wiki the for modern process I recommend:
Thanks! there's a wealth of information in the site and it's a great reference for fast souring.
I've brewed a few quick sours using various techniques and I've brew a couple all brett beers but never a brett quick sour.
I was planning on an all brett yeast fermentation with an l. plantarum post sour when I came across this thread.
I was curious the difference in results between all brett and sacc/brett. I didn't see any information on 100% brett beers on you wiki.
 
OP
RPh_Guy

RPh_Guy

Bringing Sour Back
Joined
Jan 26, 2017
Messages
8,999
Reaction score
7,372
Location
Cleveland
To my knowledge "100% Brett" fermentations have no tangible benefits vs cofermentation.
 

Steve-Ooo

Active Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2018
Messages
43
Reaction score
14
I was under the impression that "100 % Brett" gave more expression in a short timeframe than co-pitching. I thought that was the reason for beers like "Mo Betta Mo Bretta" and "Sactification". The "100% Brett" fast sour idea was inpired by "American Sour Beers" by Michael Tonsmier, who recommends this method for fast turnovers.
I have never tried a fast turnover sacc/brett copitch though and I will try your method.
 
OP
RPh_Guy

RPh_Guy

Bringing Sour Back
Joined
Jan 26, 2017
Messages
8,999
Reaction score
7,372
Location
Cleveland
I'd say the key is making a quality starter to bump up the Brett cell count before pitching, and pitch it active, no cold crash. I get tons of Brett flavor using this modern method, along with all the benefits of a normal Saccharomyces fermentation and post-souring.

Please report back with your results!
 

Steve-Ooo

Active Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2018
Messages
43
Reaction score
14
I'd say the key is making a quality starter to bump up the Brett cell count before pitching, and pitch it active, no cold crash. I get tons of Brett flavor using this modern method, along with all the benefits of a normal Saccharomyces fermentation and post-souring.

Please report back with your results!
I have the brett in a starter now and will brew once it's ready. I will surely report back. I have a few questions though. Do you use a ~ 50/50 ratio of sacc/brett? What pitch rate do you use? I was thinking 1m - 1.5m c/ml/°P.? And finally how much does the sacc contribute to the flavor profile in your experience? I have quite a few brewers yeast strains on hand.
 

ryking13

New Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2020
Messages
4
Reaction score
2
I'd say the key is making a quality starter to bump up the Brett cell count before pitching, and pitch it active, no cold crash. I get tons of Brett flavor using this modern method, along with all the benefits of a normal Saccharomyces fermentation and post-souring.

Please report back with your results!
I was thinking about using Brett in my first batch. I want to do a Cherry-Limeade type beer so using 5526 sounds like it would work amazing. But I was also going to do frozen cherries in the secondary which looks like it may increase risk of THP with the Brett. Will I get enough cherry from the Brett to just skip the fruit? Or do I not need to worry about THP and just go for it?
 
OP
RPh_Guy

RPh_Guy

Bringing Sour Back
Joined
Jan 26, 2017
Messages
8,999
Reaction score
7,372
Location
Cleveland
I have the brett in a starter now and will brew once it's ready. I will surely report back. I have a few questions though. Do you use a ~ 50/50 ratio of sacc/brett? What pitch rate do you use? I was thinking 1m - 1.5m c/ml/°P.? And finally how much does the sacc contribute to the flavor profile in your experience? I have quite a few brewers yeast strains on hand.
For 5 gal batch I've had success using a 500mL starter for the Brett, and I make a 500mL vitality starter for the Sacc (fresh culture), then a 200-300mL starter for Lacto with wort from the batch to pitch after a couple days.
Post-souring I get full flavor from the Sacc strain as well. I've been using WLP644 a lot, and it gives a very strong tropical pineapple + mango ester profile.

I was thinking about using Brett in my first batch. I want to do a Cherry-Limeade type beer so using 5526 sounds like it would work amazing. But I was also going to do frozen cherries in the secondary which looks like it may increase risk of THP with the Brett. Will I get enough cherry from the Brett to just skip the fruit? Or do I not need to worry about THP and just go for it?
I love cherry and 5526 gives lots of cherry pie flavor. It is amazing indeed. :)
Personally I don't think fruit is needed (ever), but it's up to you.

With the fast & funky modern method there is still risk of THP, but you can avoid it by using the right process, even if you add fruit.
See here:

Good questions, guys!
Cheers
 

Steve-Ooo

Active Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2018
Messages
43
Reaction score
14
For 5 gal batch I've had success using a 500mL starter for the Brett, and I make a 500mL vitality starter for the Sacc (fresh culture), then a 200-300mL starter for Lacto with wort from the batch to pitch after a couple days.
Post-souring I get full flavor from the Sacc strain as well. I've been using WLP644 a lot, and it gives a very strong tropical pineapple + mango ester profile.


I love cherry and 5526 gives lots of cherry pie flavor. It is amazing indeed. :)
Personally I don't think fruit is needed (ever), but it's up to you.

With the fast & funky modern method there is still risk of THP, but you can avoid it by using the right process, even if you add fruit.
See here:

Good questions, guys!
Cheers
Sacc Trois is a great strain! But unfortunately I do not have a pure culture on hand so I'm thinking maybe Framgarden Kveik I had success with recently (Fast sour no brett). I'll include the recipe when I check back.
Thanks for all the great information. The website is great. I see there is a log in option. How does one sign up?
 

Steve-Ooo

Active Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2018
Messages
43
Reaction score
14
Sacc Trois is a great strain! But unfortunately I do not have a pure culture on hand so I'm thinking maybe Framgarden Kveik I had success with recently (Fast sour no brett). I'll include the recipe when I check back.
Thanks for all the great information. The website is great. I see there is a log in option. How does one sign up?
Never mind I just saw the to create an account. It was simple I just missed it. Thanks!
 
OP
RPh_Guy

RPh_Guy

Bringing Sour Back
Joined
Jan 26, 2017
Messages
8,999
Reaction score
7,372
Location
Cleveland
If you plan to use kveik I'd be cautious about fermenting Brett too warm. It depends on the strain, but many cultures tend to produce off-flavors above 80-85°F from reports I've seen.
 

Steve-Ooo

Active Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2018
Messages
43
Reaction score
14
Good point I didn't think about temperature. I pitched the Framgarden at 85° and raised to 90° the 2nd day at lacto pitch last time I used it. It Kviek shined. I'm using Imperial Suburban Brett which tops out 74° per Imperial. I can use Kviek at 74 or maybe Belle Saison which would definitely perform in the low 70s.
 

OldDogBrewing

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2020
Messages
91
Reaction score
67
I was under the impression that "100 % Brett" gave more expression in a short timeframe than co-pitching. I thought that was the reason for beers like "Mo Betta Mo Bretta" and "Sactification". The "100% Brett" fast sour idea was inpired by "American Sour Beers" by Michael Tonsmier, who recommends this method for fast turnovers.
I have never tried a fast turnover sacc/brett copitch though and I will try your method.
I wouldn't use that book as a reference for certain 100% brett ferm, a lot of the examples are Trois or Drei, which now we know it is a Sach strain, but when the book was written, even labs thought it was Brett, at least I would keep in mind that any fermentation that involves Trois is not a real brett ferm
 

Steve-Ooo

Active Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2018
Messages
43
Reaction score
14
I wouldn't use that book as a reference for certain 100% brett ferm, a lot of the examples are Trois or Drei, which now we know it is a Sach strain, but when the book was written, even labs thought it was Brett, at least I would keep in mind that any fermentation that involves Trois is not a real brett ferm
I understand that particular strain was reclassified. I don't think the genus of that strain necessarily takes anything away from the theory of 100% brett fermentation nor does it make that section of the book obsolete.
If I have fermentor space I might split my batch. Half brett/sacc and half 100% brett. Maybe the results will speak for themselves.
 

OldDogBrewing

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2020
Messages
91
Reaction score
67
I understand that particular strain was reclassified. I don't think the genus of that strain necessarily takes anything away from the theory of 100% brett fermentation nor does it make that section of the book obsolete.
If I have fermentor space I might split my batch. Half brett/sacc and half 100% brett. Maybe the results will speak for themselves.
Of course it doesn't make it obsolete as there is more to it than Sach Trois, but a lot of the recipes present in the book regarding 100% brett relay on Trois, like the quick kick-start in fermentation that Trois has but Brett doesn't

I asked in this very post about a co pitch fermentation with 100% brett as I had concerns regarding it's slow start in the fermentation which opens a window for other organisms to grow as there are 0 hops and a regular PH level, that would get solved by the use of Trois but we need to keep in mind it's sach and not brett

I want to do something like you want to do but I still have doubts and I will probably be doing it by copitching the brett, the sach and the lacto, probably a neutral sach strain to let the brett shine
 

Steve-Ooo

Active Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2018
Messages
43
Reaction score
14
Lag time is definitely a bigger concern with unhopped wort, and I haven't done an unhopped brett beer before, but when pitching a very actives starter, as the op suggests, and a big lager size pitch (2mc/ml/°P) I have had true all brett ferments start in as little as ~ 6 hours. If the starter seems sluggish I can preacidify to 4.5 with lactic acid.
 

The M

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2019
Messages
45
Reaction score
43
Question for Gnomebrewer & RPh_Guy or anyone who has the knowledge. Going to brew my second co-sour beer next week and this time I'm planning to use Lallemand Sour Pitch which is 100% Lactobacillus Plantarum. Lallemand instructions say that you should pitch lacto to 30-40C (86F-104F) wort. I'm a bit confused about the pitching temp because if I have understood correctly Lactobacillus Plantarum should do it's thing somewhere in 18-20C (64-68F) and that's what I did last time when pitching Lactobacillus Plantarum. Any idea why Lallemand is giving these kind of instructions?
 
OP
RPh_Guy

RPh_Guy

Bringing Sour Back
Joined
Jan 26, 2017
Messages
8,999
Reaction score
7,372
Location
Cleveland
Question for Gnomebrewer & RPh_Guy or anyone who has the knowledge. Going to brew my second co-sour beer next week and this time I'm planning to use Lallemand Sour Pitch which is 100% Lactobacillus Plantarum. Lallemand instructions say that you should pitch lacto to 30-40C (86F-104F) wort. I'm a bit confused about the pitching temp because if I have understood correctly Lactobacillus Plantarum should do it's thing somewhere in 18-20C (64-68F) and that's what I did last time when pitching Lactobacillus Plantarum. Any idea why Lallemand is giving these kind of instructions?
Those instructions are for kettle souring -- where you need to it sour as fast as possible because the contamination risk is extremely high.
 

deeve007

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2019
Messages
343
Reaction score
176
Location
Aussie in Buenos Aires
Question for Gnomebrewer & RPh_Guy or anyone who has the knowledge. Going to brew my second co-sour beer next week and this time I'm planning to use Lallemand Sour Pitch which is 100% Lactobacillus Plantarum. Lallemand instructions say that you should pitch lacto to 30-40C (86F-104F) wort. I'm a bit confused about the pitching temp because if I have understood correctly Lactobacillus Plantarum should do it's thing somewhere in 18-20C (64-68F) and that's what I did last time when pitching Lactobacillus Plantarum. Any idea why Lallemand is giving these kind of instructions?
I co-pitched with Sour Pitch at standard temps and worked great.
 

The M

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2019
Messages
45
Reaction score
43
Thanks RPh_Guy, fast reply :) OK, so it has nothing to do with co-souring method. Got it. I will pitch the lacto as you have instructed in the first post 👍 Worked great last time and the final product was a success
 

Beer666

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2018
Messages
273
Reaction score
235
My first attempt at a modern funk sour has little funk and is very cidery. I used WLP650 and WLP644 with amylase. Do you think i pitched too much 644? I will make sure to take better notes next time. Its only about 2 weeks old and i have yet to dry hop it.
 
OP
RPh_Guy

RPh_Guy

Bringing Sour Back
Joined
Jan 26, 2017
Messages
8,999
Reaction score
7,372
Location
Cleveland
My first attempt at a modern funk sour has little funk and is very cidery. I used WLP650 and WLP644 with amylase. Do you think i pitched too much 644? I will make sure to take better notes next time. Its only about 2 weeks old and i have yet to dry hop it.
I don't have a good handle on what might cause a cidery flavor. Sorry it didn't work out, but maybe it'll get better over time.
 

Pacific Electric

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Apr 7, 2020
Messages
5
Reaction score
3
Location
Los Angeles
Happy with my first attempt, although, as I mentioned in my previous post, it's more tart than sour. Great reviews from everyone who's tried it.

Recipe:
70/30 2 Row/Wheat
No Hops

Mash:
149 °F - 60 min
168 °F - 10 min - Mash Out

Boil: 15 Min

Original Gravity : 1.043

Fermentation: Post Sour Method - 300 ml 'starter' w/ Swansons
Yeast Bay Hornindal Kveik Pitched @ 90F - 1.040
Sour Starter added 24 hours later @ 90F - 1.020 (50% Attenuation)

Added 36 oz each Mango & Passion Fruit Puree @ 72 Hours - 1.007 , pH 3.4 @ 90F

Kegged after 2 weeks - 1.006, pH 3.36

Thoughts: I think I would have had more sour if I had pitched the sour bugs after 12 hours, first time fermenting with a Kveik and underestimated it. I may wait a bit longer next time to add passion fruit to keep pH higher and give the bugs more time sour. Very happy with this method overall, can't wait for the next batch.
 

Attachments

BillyBaroo24

Member
Joined
May 15, 2020
Messages
6
Reaction score
2
Location
Lincoln
Question for @RPh_Guy concerning your MF&FS method on your wiki page...or anyone with some knowledge on the subject. I brewed an oud bruin yesterday with WLP 550 and Brett strain, both with starters. Fermenting nicely 26 hours later, but I just realized I forgot to add the glucoamylase enzyme to the fermenter. Should I just let it go or should I add the gluco now? Temp has risen from 68 to 72 degrees so far. I haven't taken a ph or gravity reading since loading up the fermenter. Also haven't added the lacto starter I made with Renew Life capsules and an ounce of GoodBelly (and calcium carb). Hoping to pull as much flavor from the 550 as I can, so planning on adding the lacto in the morning (36 hr mark). - I did add .5 tsp of Wyeast beer nutrient with 10 mins left in the boil. Any direction (or critique of other steps) is appreciated.
 
OP
RPh_Guy

RPh_Guy

Bringing Sour Back
Joined
Jan 26, 2017
Messages
8,999
Reaction score
7,372
Location
Cleveland
Should I just let it go or should I add the gluco now?
It's definitely fine to add the enzyme during fermentation. The glucoamylase doesn't seem to be adversely affected by alcohol or low pH in my experience.

Welcome to HBT. Please remember to come back and report your results!

I think I would have had more sour if I had pitched the sour bugs after 12 hours
Yeah in general I suggest staggering 8-12 hours for a hot kveik fermentation. Glad you like it.
Cheers!
 

BillyBaroo24

Member
Joined
May 15, 2020
Messages
6
Reaction score
2
Location
Lincoln
Thanks for the welcome. This forum has been a treasure trove, especially this thread. - When is the best time to add vinegar for acetic acid to an oud bruin?
 
Last edited:

Steve-Ooo

Active Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2018
Messages
43
Reaction score
14
Thanks for the welcome. This forum has been a treasure trove, especially this thread. - When is the best time to add vinegar for acetic acid to an oud bruin?
Are you adding pasteurized vinegar or a live acetobacter culture? If you want an acetic punch from adding pasteurized vinegar to taste, I'd add at packaging.
I've heard of people sticking wood pieces in the neck of a carboy to emulate barrel aging. The slight steady ingress of oxygen and the brett give Flemish reds vinegar character.
I don't have experience adding live acetobacter to beer or intentionally oxidizing. I'd be careful though or the whole batch can turn to vinegar.
 

OldDogBrewing

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2020
Messages
91
Reaction score
67
Are you adding pasteurized vinegar or a live acetobacter culture? If you want an acetic punch from adding pasteurized vinegar to taste, I'd add at packaging.
I've heard of people sticking wood pieces in the neck of a carboy to emulate barrel aging. The slight steady ingress of oxygen and the brett give Flemish reds vinegar character.
I don't have experience adding live acetobacter to beer or intentionally oxidizing. I'd be careful though or the whole batch can turn to vinegar.
I would be careful too as things can get out of control when oxidizing on purpose, I think adding pasteurised malt vinegar to bottling sounds smart as you can control it more precisely

Adding vinegar with the mother in it might be risky too, maybe it turns everything into vinegar pretty fast, as it's a pretty well settled colony and not isolate units of acetobacter
 

BillyBaroo24

Member
Joined
May 15, 2020
Messages
6
Reaction score
2
Location
Lincoln
I would be careful too as things can get out of control when oxidizing on purpose, I think adding pasteurised malt vinegar to bottling sounds smart as you can control it more precisely

Adding vinegar with the mother in it might be risky too, maybe it turns everything into vinegar pretty fast, as it's a pretty well settled colony and not isolate units of acetobacter
I should have clarified. This is commercial malt vinegar purchased from the local grocery store. Stemming from the @RPh_Guy wiki page in the "Adding Acidic Complexity" section.
 
Last edited:

OldDogBrewing

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2020
Messages
91
Reaction score
67
I should have clarified. This is commercial malt vinegar purchased from the local grocery store. Stemming from the @RPh_Guy wiki page in the "Adding Acidic Complexity" section.
Adding vinegar is quite common in sours if there isn't enough acetic or if there is purposely none and then is added, if its regular vinegar, add when you feel it's best, I don't think vinegar will low the pH enough to mess with the yeast but I would wait until fermentation is complete, it shouldn't fade too much, and you can add more to taste if you feel it has faded when bottling

You can either add small amounts to the bucket and keep sampling until it's up to your taste, o using a graduated glass and a graduated syringe, start blending them and then apply that proportion to the whole batch
 

BillyBaroo24

Member
Joined
May 15, 2020
Messages
6
Reaction score
2
Location
Lincoln
Adding vinegar is quite common in sours if there isn't enough acetic or if there is purposely none and then is added, if its regular vinegar, add when you feel it's best, I don't think vinegar will low the pH enough to mess with the yeast but I would wait until fermentation is complete, it shouldn't fade too much, and you can add more to taste if you feel it has faded when bottling

You can either add small amounts to the bucket and keep sampling until it's up to your taste, o using a graduated glass and a graduated syringe, start blending them and then apply that proportion to the whole batch
Thanks. I appreciate the insight. I added it about 24 hours after visible fermentation began. Hopefully it won't mess with the yeast so they can finish their job. I'll wait longer next time and see what difference it makes. The grand experiment is part of the fun, I suppose.
 

OldDogBrewing

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2020
Messages
91
Reaction score
67
Thanks. I appreciate the insight. I added it about 24 hours after visible fermentation began. Hopefully it won't mess with the yeast so they can finish their job. I'll wait longer next time and see what difference it makes. The grand experiment is part of the fun, I suppose.
I don't think the vinegar can mess with the yeast as you won't add that much, but you can try and see next time how does affect in terms of the finished product
 
OP
RPh_Guy

RPh_Guy

Bringing Sour Back
Joined
Jan 26, 2017
Messages
8,999
Reaction score
7,372
Location
Cleveland
I updated the wiki to clarify a couple things: Vinegar should be added at packaging, and using a vinegar product with a live culture is fine.

Acetic acid is very inhibitory to yeast, even in relatively low concentration, and especially in combination with lactic acid (they have a synergistic inhibitory effect). Adding it earlier may cause a stuck fermentation, or possibly some degree of ester supression.

Cheers
 
Last edited:

BillyBaroo24

Member
Joined
May 15, 2020
Messages
6
Reaction score
2
Location
Lincoln
I updated the wiki to clarify a couple things: Vinegar should be added at packaging, and using a vinegar product with a live culture is fine.

Acetic acid is very inhibitory to yeast, even in relatively low concentration, and especially in combination with lactic acid (they have a synergistic inhibitory effect). Adding it earlier may cause a stuck fermentation, or possibly some degree of ester supression.

Cheers
Live and learn. So anything I can do to aid fermentation at this point? I just took a gravity reading, which is 1.016 48 hours in. OG was 1.054 (70% attenuation).
 
2
Top