Fast Souring - Modern Methods

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duncan_disorderly said:
Thanks. Any thoughts on the Helveticus from Lallemand? What are the advantages of Plantarum over Helveticus? Would you ever use it?
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"The optimal temperature range for WildBrew™ Helveticus Pitch when producing sour beer styles is between 38°C to 45°C (100°F to 113°F)."

... Nope.
 
We brewed V2 of a passionfruit hibiscus co-fermented sour last Sunday (V1 is here) - it's into spund and should be fully carbonated (3 volumes) by the end of the day today. Regarding pH, acidity, flavor, etc., V1 finished at ~3.2 pH but was not sharply sour. A little research suggests that both the passionfruit puree (which we added in the fermenter along with the wort at the beginning of primary fermentation) and Hibiscus "tea" (whirlpooled 3 oz at 160 in V1) are quite acidic, which likely substantially dropped pH right off the bat and left less time/room for the L. Plantarum to create Lactic Acid before getting down to ~"terminal" pH.

This go around, we co-fermented again with US-05/Swanson's L. Plantarum and used sauermalz for mash pH adjustment as before. But, to try to get more sour flavor, we used our tap water instead of RO as our tap water has a bit higher residual alkalinity. We also waited to add both the passionfruit puree and hibiscus (through a separate tea) until primary fermentation was nearly complete and the beer pH had already hit ~3.25. Much more sour this time (which is what the wife wanted - sharp but very clean), and the passionfruit flavor seems to be holding up a little better as it's not being blown out of the airlock. Anyway, just wanted provide another piece of anecdotal support that seemingly subtle changes in process can have pretty substantial implications in terms of perceived sourness and other flavor characteristics.
 
Dustin_J said:
We brewed V2 of a passionfruit hibiscus co-fermented sour last Sunday (V1 is here) - it's into spund and should be fully carbonated (3 volumes) by the end of the day today. Regarding pH, acidity, flavor, etc., V1 finished at ~3.2 pH but was not sharply sour. A little research suggests that both the passionfruit puree (which we added in the fermenter along with the wort at the beginning of primary fermentation) and Hibiscus "tea" (whirlpooled 3 oz at 160 in V1) are quite acidic, which likely substantially dropped pH right off the bat and left less time/room for the L. Plantarum to create Lactic Acid before getting down to ~"terminal" pH.

This go around, we co-fermented again with US-05/Swanson's L. Plantarum and used sauermalz for mash pH adjustment as before. But, to try to get more sour flavor, we used our tap water instead of RO as our tap water has a bit higher residual alkalinity. We also waited to add both the passionfruit puree and hibiscus (through a separate tea) until primary fermentation was nearly complete and the beer pH had already hit ~3.25. Much more sour this time (which is what the wife wanted - sharp but very clean), and the passionfruit flavor seems to be holding up a little better as it's not being blown out of the airlock. Anyway, just wanted provide another piece of anecdotal support that seemingly subtle changes in process can have pretty substantial implications in terms of perceived sourness and other flavor characteristics.
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I'm seeing similar results with my first batch of passion fruit/mango. More like a tart than that truly sour 'taste'. I used the post-sour method, with hornindal kveik and probably pitched the lacto a bit later that ideal, which is also another likely contributor to the lack of true sour.

Will play with the next batches a bit and see if I can reproduce your results. Kegging as we speak, excited for the first batch.
 
Pacific Electric said:
I'm seeing similar results with my first batch of passion fruit/mango. More like a tart than that truly sour 'taste'. I used the post-sour method, with hornindal kveik and probably pitched the lacto a bit later that ideal, which is also another likely contributor to the lack of true sour.

Will play with the next batches a bit and see if I can reproduce your results. Kegging as we speak, excited for the first batch.
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I have pitched the lacto a week later (i forgot) and still got really sour but i used a large starter.
 
I brewed my first fast and funky sour at the weekend. Its still bubbling away 72 hours later but my lacto starter is not quite finished. I will pitch it sometime today, very impressed by the ferocity of the fermentation. If i had pitched the lacto after 24 hours would it be as sour as a Berlinner Weisse? I will be happy if it only sours a little though. Do you think Saaz will go well with wlp644 and wlp650?
 
Beer666 said:
I have pitched the lacto a week later (i forgot) and still got really sour but i used a large starter.
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What culture?
Beer666 said:
I brewed my first fast and funky sour at the weekend. Its still bubbling away 72 hours later but my lacto starter is not quite finished. I will pitch it sometime today, very impressed by the ferocity of the fermentation. If i had pitched the lacto after 24 hours would it be as sour as a Berlinner Weisse? I will be happy if it only sours a little though. Do you think Saaz will go well with wlp644 and wlp650?
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Did you use glucoamylase? I'm not entirely sure whether Lacto can sour if it's pitched into a super low gravity beer when fermentation is finished. So, it sounds like you're on the right track if you only want a little sourness.

I used a little Saaz dry hop in a beer with WLP644 and WY5526. It was awesome. I haven't used WLP650, but I'm sure it'll be good.
 
RPh_Guy said:
What culture?
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Omega Labs

RPh_Guy said:
Did you use glucoamylase? I'm not entirely sure whether Lacto can sour if it's pitched into a super low gravity beer when fermentation is finished. So, it sounds like you're on the right track if you only want a little sourness.
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Yes i used gluco at pitching

Thanks for the fast reply, i will go and pitch it now. Super excited about this, so many new beers to explore. Cheers
 
duncan_disorderly said:
Have you seen this new product from Lallemand, Wildbrew Philly Sour?

https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/en...sour-explore-the-yeast-biodiversity-universe/
A non sacch yeast that ferments the beer and also produces lactic acid - at 20-25 deg C, no-co-pitching required.
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There is a free webinar this week with information about the new Philly Sour strain, if anyone is interested:

https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/en...ktKzW6XlBG2c0l7I_bFu-akBLP4ET-9bEJfLhzloUn3xQ
 
Thought I should add some info to expand on this Q&A in the original post:

Q: Will it continue to sour if I don't add hops?
A: Yes, possibly, but Lacto's ability to produce acid is self-limiting. Normally this species finishes around pH 3.1-3.3.

I can state categorically that this does happen. My most recent co-pitching sours (single boil, split into two fermenters for different adjuncts) I forgot to add some hops to stop the souring, and it went from being close to very good beers, to being WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too sour by the time they'd been in the bottle for a week or so after carbonation was reached.

Previous two sour batches I had added dry hops once sourness was reached and they turned out great, so it makes a huge difference!
 
What's interesting (to me, maybe others know this) measuring the pH of these sours (I have a metre now, didn't before) they're around 3.3 for the finished beer, which is mid-range of what you aim for in sours, yet they taste WAY too sour, as mentioned above, undrinkable basically (I've been mixing them with non-sour beers to create decent not great sours).
 
deeve007 said:
Q: Will it continue to sour if I don't add hops?
A: Yes, possibly, but Lacto's ability to produce acid is self-limiting. Normally this species finishes around pH 3.1-3.3.

I can state categorically that this does happen. My most recent co-pitching sours (single boil, split into two fermenters for different adjuncts) I forgot to add some hops to stop the souring, and it went from being close to very good beers, to being WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too sour by the time they'd been in the bottle for a week or so after carbonation was reached.

Previous two sour batches I had added dry hops once sourness was reached and they turned out great, so it makes a huge difference!
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Very good point deeve007 and thanks for the heads up.

Update of my first co-sour beer. I have to say that I'm quite relieved. The beer is now quite sour, just how I like it and it also proves that the Lactobacillus plantarum capsules I bought, works. Or should I say that the capsules work in some manner. It took 10 days to reach the sourness level that I prefer. I took a PH reading two days ago and it was 3.35. Today, two days after taking the PH (also tasted the beer couple days ago) the beer was way more sour. I didn't bother to check the PH because it clearly doesn't tell much about the sourness of the beer. What I did was I just tasted the beer and called it finished. I don't know if my souring process was slow using co-souring method but it clearly worked. Maybe the capsules I used are somehow inconsistent like RPh_Guy mentioned earlier? Anyhow I kegged the beer today and now I let it carbonate for about 7 days. Can't wait to pour my first pint of that wonderful sour beer :)

After reading deeve007 post earlier today I decided to add 0.5oz of Amarillo to my fermenter. Just didn't want the beer to get any more sour. It's perfect now. Hops were in FV about two hours before kegging and I assume that some of those hops were transferred to the keg during transfer. So I hope that the souring process will stop or is there any minimum contact time for the hops to stop souring?
 
On my first attempt right now, about 6 day’s into a post sour with ebbelgarden Kveik and lacto blend from escarpment. Went to transfer the batch into two halves to age on different fruits. When I opened up the fermented it smelled like vomit. I was reading online that this is buytric acid. Did I mess up somewhere along the way? Or is this normal and okay? Will it fade in two weeks or will it always be a part of the aroma? Will it affect flavour? Any advice is appreciated. Hoping I didn’t mess up my first sour attempt. It would be really disappointing.

Cheers,
drtskrtsourboi
 
drtskrtsourboi said:
When I opened up the fermented it smelled like vomit. I was reading online that this is buytric acid. Did I mess up somewhere along the way? Or is this normal and okay?
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It's definitely not normal. You picked up a contaminating microbe somehow.

Where did you get the kveik? Is it a repitch?

drtskrtsourboi said:
Will it fade in two weeks or will it always be a part of the aroma? Will it affect flavour?
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It's a dumper unfortunately. :(
 
A question about the 1gal I added a little kefir to. How long should I allow it to sour before bottling? Is 1 month long enough?
 
Certain strains of brett can convert butyric acid into different esters. If you are really willing to risk it and hold onto something for a year that may not work, pitch some brett brux. More than likely it is a dumper though.
 
Doing a 3 way split of a 8.5 gallon batch coming up with the mixed copitched fermentations. one will be Brett/Brewers Yeast, one Brett/Brewers yeast/Lacto, and the last will be Brett/Lacto. Thanks @RPh_Guy for the pointers along the way. I've started a thread on this but i'll also update folks here aswell.
 
Regarding the Brett/Sacch/Lacto one.....lact souring is quite fast and inhibits Brett ester expression. IMO, you should either try adding hops and using pedio (with a long aging period) or try RPh_Guy's fast and funky method (on his wiki). I haven't tried it yet, but am hoping to soon.
 
Gnomebrewer said:
Regarding the Brett/Sacch/Lacto one.....lact souring is quite fast and inhibits Brett ester expression. IMO, you should either try adding hops and using pedio (with a long aging period) or try RPh_Guy's fast and funky method (on his wiki). I haven't tried it yet, but am hoping to soon.
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Co-pitching at different times. Lacto will not be pitch until 90% attenuation.

It still may not be the correct call but I’m just getting into Brett ferms and just feel I need to experience things from trail and error. For me it’s the best way to learn.
 
GeneDaniels1963 said:
A question about the 1gal I added a little kefir to. How long should I allow it to sour before bottling? Is 1 month long enough?
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Hard to say ... You didn't use the recommended bacteria.
Perhaps you can monitor the taste and/or pH?

henchman24 said:
Certain strains of brett can convert butyric acid into different esters. If you are really willing to risk it and hold onto something for a year that may not work, pitch some brett brux. More than likely it is a dumper though.
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I suggested to dump it because vomit aroma may indicate the presence of toxin-producing bacteria. It's a long shot, but better safe than sorry IMHO. Our nose tells us not to eat/drink things that are potentially dangerous.

Dgallo said:
Co-pitching at different times. Lacto will not be pitch until 90% attenuation.

It still may not be the correct call but I’m just getting into Brett ferms and just feel I need to experience things from trail and error. For me it’s the best way to learn.
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I've made a couple beers using the fast & funky method I outlined. They've both had strong Brett flavor very early on. I don't know that it will work as well for every Brett culture though -- they're all different. I've also added a variety of Brett cultures at bottling. Usually the flavor from those cultures seems pretty muted (because of the acid), but there are differences with flavor development among the cultures. Some are still pretty strong like Jolly Pumpkin dregs regardless of the acidity.
 
Well, I decided to bottle. I know it was probably too soon, but I needed to get it done.

Its hard to tell what the final taste will be right now since the gruit is so green, but it is definitively funky. Not so much what I would call sour, more of earthy or cheesy thing going on. If it was stronger it would be repulsive, but as it is it is intriguing. I guess that should not be surprising since I soured it with kefir.

I have a very high appreciation for strange tastes, so I think it will work if it does not become more pronounced in the bottle. I'm going to wait 3 weeks then sample a bottle, I cant wait!
 
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RPh_Guy said:
I suggested to dump it because vomit aroma may indicate the presence of toxin-producing bacteria. It's a long shot, but better safe than sorry IMHO. Our nose tells us not to eat/drink things that are potentially dangerous.
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I totally get what you're saying and why... and nobody should be tasting that beer as it sits or if it smelled the same after more fermentation. It very likely would end up a dumper. With that, the vomit smell is likely butyric acid from some sort of bacteria and it can be converted by other microbes (in our case, brett) to form other flavors down the line. There are many sour beers out there that have the characteristics of converted butyric acid and probably had a faint smell at one point in their fermentation.
 
henchman24 said:
I totally get what you're saying and why... and nobody should be tasting that beer as it sits or if it smelled the same after more fermentation. It very likely would end up a dumper. With that, the vomit smell is likely butyric acid from some sort of bacteria and it can be converted by other microbes (in our case, brett) to form other flavors down the line. There are many sour beers out there that have the characteristics of converted butyric acid and probably had a faint smell at one point in their fermentation.
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I understand Brett can remove butyric acid. However as far as I know any toxins could still be present, so letting Brett work on it wouldn't remove the health hazard.

Traditional spontaneous beers have plenty of hops that would inhibit Clostridium spp. This method does not use hops, so you cannot compare it to traditional beers to extrapolate any sense of safety.
 
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RPh_Guy said:
I understand Brett can remove butyric acid. However as far as I know any toxins could still be present, so letting Brett work on it wouldn't remove the health hazard.

Traditional spontaneous beers have plenty of hops that would inhibit Clostridium spp. This method does not use hops, so you cannot compare it to traditional beers to extrapolate any sense of safety.
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Yeah most certainly hopped vs not has a part to play here. I'd be curious to know initial ph, post fermentation ph, fermentation lag/time, etc. If the Kviek took off as it normally does and there was nearly a complete fermentation in a day or so, it would be hard for most bacteria to produce a toxicity level that would be dangerous (could still cause adverse side effects). Especially something like botulinum that takes days of bacterial growth before producing the toxin in numbers that are harmful. If the beer had reached a PH under 4.5 within a day (reasonable with Kveik), it would be rather difficult for most toxic bacteria to gain a real foothold and reach high enough levels. Certainly not impossible though, and the safest thing is to not test fate and dump it. Of note, the escarpment blend of lacto contains rhamnosus which some strains have been shown to produce butyric acid in the presence of barley.
 
RPh_Guy said:
I understand Brett can remove butyric acid. However as far as I know any toxins could still be present, so letting Brett work on it wouldn't remove the health hazard.

Traditional spontaneous beers have plenty of hops that would inhibit Clostridium spp. This method does not use hops, so you cannot compare it to traditional beers to extrapolate any sense of safety.
Click to expand...

I can't find anywhere wich would be the hop tolerance of this kind of bacteria, I guessed it's inhibited because it's a gram positive bacteria but it doesn't seem to be too much info about it on the internet
 
OldDogBrewing said:
I can't find anywhere wich would be the hop tolerance of this kind of bacteria, I guessed it's inhibited because it's a gram positive bacteria but it doesn't seem to be too much info about it on the internet
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Only if you look in the right places. ;)

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0,36&q=Clostridium+isohumulone
However, the anti-microbial activity of hops isn't all that well understood in general. Personally I think it's reasonable to assume that a "normal" amount of hops would completely prevent Clostridium growth in beer, especially when you consider the other factors that also inhibit it.

henchman24 said:
Fact or Fiction – Botulism in Beer? Part V - Sui Generis Brewing

That is backed with growth rates elsewhere that are more hospitable than wort that has dissolved oxygen (hopefully), alcohol being produced, and a PH that should quickly drop.

https://aem.asm.org/content/aem/62/8/3069.full.pdf
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Thank you, I'll review those later.
 
RPh_Guy said:
Only if you look in the right places. ;)

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0,36&q=Clostridium+isohumulone
However, the anti-microbial activity of hops isn't all that well understood in general. Personally I think it's reasonable to assume that a "normal" amount of hops would completely prevent Clostridium growth in beer, especially when you consider the other factors that also inhibit it.


Thank you, I'll review those later.
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Good to know, to say the truth, I never check Google Academics as it's mostly PDFs and browsing them with the phone is a really big pain hahaha

In an other topic, do you think this method might work for a 100% Brett fermentation? I'm worried about the lag period that might take the Brett to start the fermentation as the wort would be unhoped, sanitation will be key I guess, I can see it with Kveik as it starts in hours (that's my experience with Voss at least, 6 hours in and there is high krausen already) so anything will be outgrown really fast, but Brett is another world
 
OldDogBrewing said:
In an other topic, do you think this method might work for a 100% Brett fermentation? I'm worried about the lag period that might take the Brett to start the fermentation as the wort would be unhoped, sanitation will be key I guess, I can see it with Kveik as it starts in hours (that's my experience with Voss at least, 6 hours in and there is high krausen already) so anything will be outgrown really fast, but Brett is another world
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Sanitation is pretty much always key to making consistently good beer.

I haven't tested a "100% Brett" fermentation because IMO it doesn't seem like a good idea.
http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/100%_Brettanomyces_Fermentation
However, post-souring will certainly work. You just need to monitor s.g. and pitch the Lacto at the correct time. I would not co-pitch.
 
A big thank you to RPh_Guy and this whole thread for taking the fear out of using bacteria to make awesome homebrew. I am currently dry hopping my first sour batch using the post souring method and the sample I took tonight is easily one of the best things I've brewed to date. It is also the first time I've used Voss Kveik yeast. The combination of Voss with a 12 hour head start before adding the good belly was perfect to get the orange flavor from the yeast and the sour from the
Lactobacillus plantarum.

I fermented between 80-90f for 3 days and it is already plenty sour for my taste. To top it off, this was my first extract beer in years and easily stands up to my more complex NE IPAs.

5 gallons
1 lb wheat DME
3 lbs Light DME
Omega Voss Keviek
16 oz goodbelly blueberry acai
1 oz Summer (dry hop)
1 tsp yeast nutrient
 
So here it is, first sour beer I've brewed with co-souring method. I also want to give a big hand to
RPh_Guy and everyone else who have participated to this thread. I've been avoiding brewing sours since I was a bit afraid of the contamination from lacto bacteria. This co-souring method using Lactobacillus plantarum totally changed the game for me. I'm super exited because now I can brew sours without sacrificing some of the brewing equipment solely to sour beers. I had some "difficulties" after pitching lacto (it took about 10 days before the beer was sour) but the final product is simply great. The sourness is perfect and everyone who have drinked this passion fruit sour absolutely loves it, including my wife who is a big fan of sours. Finally I can brew something for her too :) I have already planned my next sour, it's going to be fruit sour with raspberries and lime. Tomorrow I will brew some traditional west coast ipa and after that it's co-souring time baby!

PassionSour.png
 
@RPh_Guy sorry if this has been asked but do you have a basic starter recipe to try this method for my first sour? I typically do all-grain BIAB. Thanks!
 
ryking13 said:
@RPh_Guy sorry if this has been asked but do you have a basic starter recipe to try this method for my first sour? I typically do all-grain BIAB. Thanks!
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The one I got from either RPh or another sour brewer here which has worked amazingly for a few sours/goses is simply a 50/50 pilsener/wheat grain bill, US 05 yeast, co-pitching with my Lacto source and then dry hopping once desired sourness reached. Then I vary this with whatever adjuncts I want to add for any particular batch.
 

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