Which Lacto To use?

[CopperWolf]

So my wife has tasked me with making her a Sour Blueberry Cobbler style beer. She has had one from a local brewery she loves but they are always sold out. So I'm going to try my hand at making a small batch til i can get the taste to what she likes. I'm just having a hard time trying to decide which Lacto to use. I have done a good amount of reading on the topic but i can't seem to find if one is better than the other at giving the sourness better than the other without any off flavors. I have been looking at the Lallemand wild brew sour pitch, the Good belly, or the Swanson L PLantarum capsules. Will all of these do the same or is one a better use than the other.

Then my second question is will doing a Co-Souring be easiest or would a kettle sour work better? I know allot of this is trial and error but i was wanting to ask and see what others had better luck with.

 

[Rish]

I've used Good Belly in a kettle sour and it worked okay. Now I use Philly Sour yeast. It does a good job and is easier to use. Have you considered it? Good luck!

 

[worlddivides]

I've also used Good Belly, Swanson L. Plantarum, and Philly Sour (the Lallemand wild pitch lactic acid-producing yeast). I think Philly Sour is the easiest solution since you don't need to do a kettle sour. The yeast does everything (first the lactic acid production, then the ethanol production). You'll want to look into how it's done, though, since how sour it'll get will largely depend on how much glucose the yeast has access to.

 

[CopperWolf]

You'll want to look into how it's done, though, since how sour it'll get will largely depend on how much glucose the yeast has access to.

Dumb question but where could I find that out. I have the recipe I'm wanting to use in the calculator but I'm not seeing glucose. Which I'm still trying to figure out the calculator and may have over looked it.

 

[IslandLizard]

Don't forget, most of modern day's fruity sours are (heavily) back sweetened (typically with Lactose). Aside from making them more accessible to a larger audience, it also makes the fruit flavors pop.
Many breweries also use (good quality) fruit flavorings to make the fruit stand out better. Some don't even use actual fruit.

Just using Philly Sour with natural fruit (or juice) may give you a beer that's more sour than most people will like.

 

[worlddivides]

Dumb question but where could I find that out. I have the recipe I'm wanting to use in the calculator but I'm not seeing glucose. Which I'm still trying to figure out the calculator and may have over looked it.

There's lots of sources, but here's one as an example:



I mean, that's a video, but you can find lots of information on the strain in text online if you search for it.

I'm not sure what you mean by not seeing glucose in a calculator. What calculator are you using? I'm assuming you'd get a decent amount of glucose from the blueberries you use, but you also might want to add pure glucose to the boil if you want to make the beer more sour.

I tend to classify sours into two broad categories: traditional/hardcore and modern/accessible. Traditional sours such as lambics, gueuzes, oud bruins, and so on, which tend to be extremely sour. The more accessible modern ones generally aren't that sour and might only have lactic acid for the souring. As IslandLizard said, many of them will try to balance out the sourness with lactose or artificial fruit flavors. And a lot of this comes down to taste. Sour beers were the very first style of craft beers I really got into, so I tend to like them REALLY sour (gueuzes are one of my all-time favorite styles). But I think most people don't like sours to be that intense.

 

[Jeroen79]

You could also go for a brett instead of lactos, in my opinion that a lot nicer!

 

[worlddivides]

You could also go for a brett instead of lactos, in my opinion that a lot nicer!

As much as I love brett, on its own it's not particularly sour (it goes well with sour microbes, though). I doubt when his wife said she wants a "Sour Blueberry Cobbler beer," she meant "I want a fruit beer with lots of funk."

 

[Miraculix]

Have you thought about souring with hop intolerant lactos and knocking them out with hop tea once they've reached your desired sourness? That would be my approach. There's a dedicated thread here in this forum on this method.

 

[CopperWolf]

As much as I love brett, on its own it's not particularly sour (it goes well with sour microbes, though). I doubt when his wife said she wants a "Sour Blueberry Cobbler beer," she meant "I want a fruit beer with lots of funk."

Here is the sour she is wanting me to try to replicate. I will look into the hop tea method but she hates anything with a hop taste as with this sour you cannot taste hop at all in it.

https://www.tavour.com/b/space-trash-b248717

 

[Miraculix]

Here is the sour she is wanting me to try to replicate. I will look into the hop tea method but she hates anything with a hop taste as with this sour you cannot taste hop at all in it.

https://www.tavour.com/b/space-trash-b248717

You don't need much hops for this method to work. Just a one digit number of ibus or just a bit of dry hops.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/fast-souring-modern-methods.670176/

 

[CopperWolf]

You don't need much hops for this method to work. Just a one digit number of ibus or just a bit of dry hops.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/fast-souring-modern-methods.670176/

I was looking at that method you have listed there and actually printed it off to study it over the weekend. I had read that several people liked using saaz hops with it.

I was also looking into which type of the lacto i can get around me easily without ordering. I like to use my local shops as much as i can.

So if i was to use that fast-souring method would I go ahead and add my fruit and other ingredients to the primary while its souring, or would it be better to stop the souring with hops, then move it to a secondary with my other ingredients to finish out there.

I was also looking at this method below but would use hops to stop the lacto.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/really-easy-fruit-sour.675345/

 

[Dgallo]

you don’t need to “kettle sour”, you can copitch if you like. This is what I do.

Open 3 good belly pils and dump the contents into the wort and then pitch your primary strain. If your running kviek, you can keep the temps mid 80s. If using a traditional strain, 70*f will be fine.

If you want to recreate blueberry cobbler, you’ll probably need to go 1.5/2lb per gallon of blueberry as it’s very light in flavor compared to other berries. Then I’d make a tincture with 100ml of everclear, 2 high quality vanilla beans scraped and diced (all contents into the vodka) and a good quality Cinnamon stick. If you want to mimic the crust, use a quality graham extract and add it to taste.

 

[worlddivides]

Here is the sour she is wanting me to try to replicate. I will look into the hop tea method but she hates anything with a hop taste as with this sour you cannot taste hop at all in it.

https://www.tavour.com/b/space-trash-b248717

That seems like a very complicated and difficult beer to replicate. One that I imagine would be very delicious if you can successfully pull it off, but very difficult all the same.

 

[CopperWolf]

Well fellas, with all of yalls amazing input I'm going to give it a go and if everything works I'll do a write up of the grain bill along with everything I do. I'm going to take the best parts I believe from all the feedback I have gotten and try it.

Thanks to everyone!

 

[CopperWolf]

That seems like a very complicated and difficult beer to replicate. One that I imagine would be very delicious if you can successfully pull it off, but very difficult all the same.

You can ask anyone that knows me. I've never been one to take the easy line. I love a challenge!

 

[Dgallo]

You can ask anyone that knows me. I've never been one to take the easy line. I love a challenge!

For what it’s worth, I’ve added 2 whole cheesecakes, 9 lbs of berries, and 4 vanilla beans to a smoothie sour for a homebrew festival before, so anything is possible lol

 

[DuncB]

I thought all lactose was the same!!

 

[worlddivides]

I thought all lactose was the same!!

All lactose may be the same, but not all lactobacillus or lactic acid-producing micro-organisms (the topic of this thread) are.

 

[CopperWolf]

For what it’s worth, I’ve added 2 whole cheesecakes, 9 lbs of berries, and 4 vanilla beans to a smoothie sour for a homebrew festival before, so anything is possible lol View attachment 869230

How did that turn out. Looks like it tasted good

 

[CopperWolf]

All lactose may be the same, but not all lactobacillus or lactic acid-producing micro-organisms (the topic of this thread) are.

And that is why I wanted to ask. I have seen where some people had used kettle sour vs Philly sour ect and the sour was either at the head of the beer or the tail end. I hope this thread has helped people who thought like I did that all were the same.

As with anything it's trial and error but I hope this gives people an idea of where to start with a little research.

Again thanks everyone

 

[worlddivides]

And that is why I wanted to ask. I have seen where some people had used kettle sour vs Philly sour ect and the sour was either at the head of the beer or the tail end. I hope this thread has helped people who thought like I did that all were the same.

As with anything it's trial and error but I hope this gives people an idea of where to start with a little research.

Again thanks everyone

Philly Sour falls into the category of LAY (lactic acid-producing yeasts) as opposed to what is traditionally used in sours: LAB (lactic acid-producing bacteria). Yeasts that produce lactic acid are somewhat rare, hence why they haven't really been used in brewing until recently. Even if we limit it to just lactobacillus, there are hundreds of different strains and, while they all produce lactic acid, it's also worth noting that all Saccharomyces "brewers yeast" produces ethanol and carbon dioxide, but they don't all taste exactly the same. An abbey ale yeast isn't going to taste anything like a US West Coast Chico yeast, for example.

 

[Dgallo]

Philly Sour falls into the category of LAY (lactic acid-producing yeasts) as opposed to what is traditionally used in sours: LAB (lactic acid-producing bacteria). Yeasts that produce lactic acid are somewhat rare, hence why they haven't really been used in brewing until recently. Even if we limit it to just lactobacillus, there are hundreds of different strains and, while they all produce lactic acid, it's also worth noting that all Saccharomyces "brewers yeast" produces ethanol and carbon dioxide, but they don't all taste exactly the same. An abbey ale yeast isn't going to taste anything like a US West Coast Chico yeast, for example.

I think you taking it too literal. I brew funk quite often and I immediately knew what the op was asking, which was “which culture/blend should I use and which method would be the best”

Not for one second did I think he was wondering which isolate lactobacillus strain should he use? I actually don’t know if I ever came across a single isolated strain of lacto as they are usually a blend of at least brevis and plantatium

 

[worlddivides]

I think you taking it too literal. I brew funk quite often and I immediately knew what the op was asking, which was “which culture/blend should I use and which method would be the best”

Not for one second did I think he was wondering which isolate lactobacillus strain should he use? I actually don’t know if I ever came across a single isolated strain of lacto as they are usually a blend of at least brevis and plantatium

I don't think I'm taking it too literal at all. I also don't think the OP is a microbiologist. I think he was asking exactly what he asked. And I don't think I've ever come across a single isolated strain of lactobacillus either.

 

[DuncB]

All lactose may be the same, but not all lactobacillus or lactic acid-producing micro-organisms (the topic of this thread) are.

Topic of thread is which Lacto to use?

But irony is a blunt humour!

Which Nitro to use could also lead to confusion and danger perhaps.

The uniculture effect of Philly sour is quite different from a mixed Lactobacillus output.
But if you want a clear sour then use the Philly.

 

[worlddivides]

The uniculture effect of Philly sour is quite different from a mixed Lactobacillus output.
But if you want a clear sour then use the Philly.

Agreed. The main benefit of Philly Sour is the convenience. You don't contaminate your equipment, which is a requirement of the traditional method (assuming you don't already have separate "regular" and "sour" fermenting equipment), and it's faster and less risky than kettle souring. The character is definitely different, though. I'll also mention that kettle souring is much less complex than a traditional lactobacillus + Saccharomyces (and often also + Brettanomyces and pediococcus) fermentation. Philly is most similar to kettle souring, but it tastes different from that too.

 

[DuncB]

I've been tempted to try and use the Philly sour to get that tang in a " Guinness clone " a parallel ferment of some of the batch with Philly sour whilst conventionally fermenting the majority of the batch and then adding them together. Would be interesting.

 

[Dgallo]

How did that turn out. Looks like it tasted good

Turned out great. Had absolutely no head retention from the fats in the cheesecake though. Came in second for people’s choice

 

[worlddivides]

Looks absolutely amazing.