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orangemen5

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Blending was my next thought. I'm going to try this again with a proper lacto starter and a slight earlier pitch. Thanks
 

Beer666

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I have a brett starter that is a little vinegary, left too long in the flask. Is this rescueable? I quite liked it to be honest but would like to check.
 

fendersrule

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Nope, hence my query this time about the delay... but it seems like the lactose I added in the boil may have had a delaying effect on the sourness, being the only factor I changed compared to my two previous sours.
I wanted to reply based on some indirect experience. When I bottled my sours, my girlfriend stole a few of them an added plant-based non-fermentable sugar---similar to Lactose.

Those beers were super nasty. Basically, the sugar completely counteracted the sour (made it less sour), and all that remained was a sweeter beer-juice stuff. It was nasty!

I'd probably recommend keeping all sweetening agents away from sours from this experience.

@RPh_Guy, I am starting to make a sour today. It will be a Raspberry Sour. Going to do the co-pitch method (trying it again). I will use the active capsules that I had to buy last time to fix the last batch. I'll use 1-2 capsules per gallon. I also bought some goodbelly blueberry....will probably dump some of that in as well. So yep, this will be my next attempt at a co-sour.

As far as the fruits addition, I'll add it on the 3-4 day of fermentation. I'm thinking to not worry about dry hopping it until the very end. I'm not worried about things becoming "too sour" since it's self limiting, and we tend to like very "sour" sours.

I plan to pre-acidify, like always. Will do a 30 minute boil.
 

deeve007

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I wanted to reply based on some indirect experience. When I bottled my sours, my girlfriend stole a few of them an added plant-based non-fermentable sugar---similar to Lactose.

Those beers were super nasty. Basically, the sugar completely counteracted the sour (made it less sour), and all that remained was a sweeter beer-juice stuff. It was nasty!

I'd probably recommend keeping all sweetening agents away from sours from this experience.
It didn't make it nasty at all, just delayed the sourness, and there are loads of commercial sours with added lactose, so not sure that by itself is necessarily an issue.
 

fendersrule

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I just thought of something, but I'm sure it won't be an issue.

I don't have my pre-chiller hooked up yet, and it's pretty warm here. I'm probably looking at chilling to 78-80F or something at best today since it's about 95F out.

I'm thinking to pitch the lacto first during the kettle to carboy transfer. Then late tonight (about 6-8 hours later) I'll just pitch the yeast. I don't see anything wrong with doing this...it gives the lacto a little bit of a head start.
 

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I have a brett starter that is a little vinegary, left too long in the flask. Is this rescueable? I quite liked it to be honest but would like to check.
Yes. I've had Brett starters go past vinegary - they became acetone-ey. Despite common wisdom on the interwebs, they still worked perfectly in beers I brewed with them. As long as the Brett in the starter is healthy, there's no reason the Brett should act differently in the batch of beer than Brett from a non-vinegary starter (as long as the vinegar wasn't from acetobacter).
 
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I have a brett starter that is a little vinegary, left too long in the flask. Is this rescueable? I quite liked it to be honest but would like to check.
It's best to monitor the starter and close it off and/or stop the aeration when it starts to get acetic. Acetic acid is not great for the yeast health, but otherwise it doesn't cause any problems with the batch.

I'd probably recommend keeping all sweetening agents away from sours from this experience.
A lot of commercial and home brewers use lactose in sour beers. It's not to my taste though.

@RPh_Guy, I am starting to make a sour today. It will be a Raspberry Sour. Going to do the co-pitch method (trying it again). I will use the active capsules that I had to buy last time to fix the last batch. I'll use 1-2 capsules per gallon. I also bought some goodbelly blueberry....will probably dump some of that in as well. So yep, this will be my next attempt at a co-sour.

As far as the fruits addition, I'll add it on the 3-4 day of fermentation. I'm thinking to not worry about dry hopping it until the very end. I'm not worried about things becoming "too sour" since it's self limiting, and we tend to like very "sour" sours.

I plan to pre-acidify, like always. Will do a 30 minute boil.
Sounds cool. Good luck!
You may add a little chalk if you wish to increase sourness, since it worked so well for you the first time.

I'm thinking to pitch the lacto first during the kettle to carboy transfer. Then late tonight (about 6-8 hours later) I'll just pitch the yeast. I don't see anything wrong with doing this...it gives the lacto a little bit of a head start.
Be aware pre-soured beers have much less flavor from the yeast, and probably less flavor from the bacteria as well.

Cheers
 

fendersrule

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Cool. Not really caring to get yeast taste from US-05. Would rather the fruit shine for this one!

i still haven’t pitched yet. It’s 71F. Prob will pitch in a few hours. It will have about 16-18 hours to pre-sour.
 

Andrew Walls

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My last batch was a raspberry sour, working crazy well. Got an og of 1.075 and mashed at 160-156 for an hour. Co pitched one pack of escarpment lacto into 2 carboys with a packet of saison yeast in each as well. Transferred to secondary after 8 days and pitched 1.5kg of raspberry. Fermented at 20 degrees for 27 days total, and finished with an fg of 1.018.
 

deeve007

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My last batch was a raspberry sour, working crazy well. Got an og of 1.075 and mashed at 160-156 for an hour. Co pitched one pack of escarpment lacto into 2 carboys with a packet of saison yeast in each as well. Transferred to secondary after 8 days and pitched 1.5kg of raspberry. Fermented at 20 degrees for 27 days total, and finished with an fg of 1.018.
What characteristics do you think the saison yeast brought to the party? Curious about what different yeasts might add...
 

fendersrule

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@RPh_Guy

I owe you an update.

As I mentioned via documentation on this thread, I pre-soured for 14 hours because it being in the dead heat of summer and being most wort chillers cannot bring temp down to pitching temp, WHY NOT? It's a very fair question....

A recap: Pitched bugs at 6PM on Saturday @ 78F wort temp. Pitched Yeast at 3:00PM on Sunday @ 68F wort temp. I did not cool agressively here, just let it cool naturally with a couple ice packs. After this time, wort was kept 67-68F with US-05 during bulk of fermentation. Today, Wednesday, I tried a little sample. Sour, for sure! My first success with "copitching." It's not AGGRESSIVELY sour, but very much a sour! Fermentation is still 70% active, so not truly accurate because there are still sugars present, but accurate enough to know this will be steller sour ale.

Starting tomorrow (Thursday evening) I will add fruit additions and let it ferment again, further increasing sourness. The PH will drop naturally because raspberries will have a lower PH.

Dry hop next week sometime (optional). Bottle next weekend.

From this experience, I would add a new Wiki article. It gets into the details somewhat, but this is still a semi-copitch method at a 10,000 ft few. It brings reality into the equation. If brewing in the summer, you shouldn't fret about getting it down to yeast pitching temps. If you can only get to let's say, 80F from the kettle, pitch your damned Lacto, and the end of the next day if you have enough experience to know your wort will be cooled to whatever proper pitching temps of your yeast will be, you can easily pitch your yeast then. It gives you a head start.

Vice versa does not work very well. Pitching Yeast first, then Lacto doesn't work in my experience.

Nothing wrong with pitching Lacto a little bit prior. Better than leaving a container of wort doing nothing for 14 hours. It's a bit asinine even to do such a thing IF you can avoid it.

This sour will be REALLY good.....good enough that this method could be explored and talked about...

What to call it? Semi Co-pitch? Pre Co-pitch? Mostly Co-pitch?

It works.
 
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RPh_Guy

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I pre-soured for 14 hours [...] Pitched bugs at 6PM on Saturday. Pitched Yeast at 3:00PM
21 hours?

As the wort temperature approaches the temperature of the cooling water, the rate of chilling slows dramatically. Therefore when tap water is warm during the summer, two-stage chilling (tap water and then circulating ice water) is necessary to chill in a reasonable amount of time. Submersible pumps are easy to use and inexpensive.

Pre-souring without post-boiling has all the same issues as kettle souring: increased contamination risk, muted yeast flavor, muted bacteria flavor (albeit to a lesser extent), and increased oxidation.
I compiled a long list of threads with contaminated kettle sours. I think that alone is reason enough to try to chill quickly and pitch the yeast, even if you don't care about the other flavor aspects.
 

fendersrule

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Yea, it was probably more like 21 hours.

My wort chiller is a monster....check my home-made chiller out if you haven't. But still, ground water when it's 95F outside will only be so cold. I have yet to set my old chiller up as a "pre-chiller." Will do so soon. My point, not everyone will have a two-chiller setup...

There is more contamination risk with letting wort sit with zero activity for 21 hours vs pitching something initially. I'll argue to the moon on that one....

Yeast flavor? Not all sour styles should have yeast flavors present IMO. My girlfriend hates yeasty beers....and even some of my favorite sours are actually absent of "yeast" flavors but are almost entirely fruit-forward. I recommend you trying 10 Barrel Cranberry, Raspberry, Peach, or Cucumber sours.

Bacteria flavor I can easily speak too being that I've made a super sour starter. Most probably haven't done this. The smell is not pleasant and is actually "rank." Smell and taste are completely interlocked together and cannot be subtracted. However, it was really good! What I'm saying here, is that a heavy lacto taste isn't necessarily a good thing, nor is a bad thing depending on the taster. As long as it's a "sour" taste, or acidic to the pallet, it's a sour.

Oxidation does not occur when adding additional fermentation profiles pre or mid fermentation in my experience, especially when pitching yeast in primary (before additional fermentation profiles such as fruit) are still added. If that were the case, then dry hopping breaks all rules. Hell, fruiting breaks all rules. This is not a valid argument.

Not arguing, but I think it's important to separate your preferences vs "making a good sour" on your wiki. Try it this way for once if you must....pre-sour for ~24 hours then proceed as normal and then decide for yourself. My mouth says "this is going to be really damn good." I'm only tasting a base profile too...not the raspberry addition yet. Pretend that you are most people brewing in the summer, and slip in some lacto slightly before the yeast. It will work, and it will work extremely well. This sour will be good....and I'm sure if you ever were to visit you would have more than one glass.....to me, that's good enough to mention this as a possibility on the Wiki.

I disagree with classifying this method as a "kettle sour". This is not a kettle sour. The is simply souring during letting the wort cool a little bit more in the dead heat of summer. I've made beer over 100 times, and this is no more "at risk" than non-souring beers. Give it some thought.
 
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RPh_Guy

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My point, not everyone will have a two-chiller setup...
You only need one chiller. Run tap water until the wort is around 100-120°F, and then disconnect the tap water and circulate ice water through the same chiller. Using a pre-chiller is less effective.

There is more contamination risk with letting wort sit with zero activity for 21 hours vs pitching something initially.
I completely agree on this point, but it's not as good brewing practice as properly chilling and pitching ASAP. Chilling fast promotes good cold break formation so you can remove it. A pre-souring phase leaves the wort open to oxidation during that timeframe, as opposed to rapid chilling and pitching yeast, which consume oxygen.

I also agree you should brew according to your tastes, and I'm not doubting your beer is good. If you prefer less microbial flavor and are willing to accept the contamination risk, then definitely pre-sour. There are lots of ways to make sour beer beyond the few methods I covered, and sometimes a particular method may not be practical or optimal for you based on your own personal circumstances or goals.

I have used a no-boil pre-sour method, as well as multiple kettle sours. These are not methods I'd continue to use, for the reasons I mentioned. Regardless, if you feel that this pre-souring method (or the blending method you used before) deserve page(s) on Modern Brewhouse, you are more than welcome to write the article(s). I have a lot of other topics in progress with higher priority right now: 112+ articles in progress. It's a huge project.

If you see any specific statement in my wiki is factually incorrect or otherwise biased or misleading, please challenge it! Mistakes can be made. I acknowledge I am taking a stance on a souring method because processes with the most benefit should be promoted.

Cheers
 
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Beer666

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I had a sample of my modern fast funky last night and its improved a lot. Crystal clear even though its a no boil with a slight film on top. I brewed it in a bucket. Has a pleasant acetic character. Planning to keg/bottle in a weeks time after i dry hop and oak it. Looking for some advice on oaking and what hops to use. Should i oak first and how long is good for contact time? I have noble hops or citra and el dorado, was thinking the latter would add some nice fruity notes. Cheers.
 
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I had a sample of my modern fast funky last night and its improved a lot. Crystal clear even though its a no boil with a slight film on top. I brewed it in a bucket. Has a pleasant acetic character. Planning to keg/bottle in a weeks time after i dry hop and oak it. Looking for some advice on oaking and what hops to use. Should i oak first and how long is good for contact time? I have noble hops or citra and el dorado, was thinking the latter would add some nice fruity notes. Cheers.
I would definitely add oak first. Contact time depends on the product and the quantity. 2oz of (unboiled) StaVin oak cubes in 5 gal will give a significant oak flavor in about a week. Chips will probably be faster. Making oak tea is another option if you want to experiment with a bench trial.

Any hops you mentioned sound good. Personally I don't like Hallertau Mittelfruh by itself though.

Cheers
 

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My vote is for el dorado hops. I’d get the wood in ASAP in a hop sock. Then when you keg, keep the wood in the keg. Keep it tied up so if it starts to go too far, you can pull it out. I’d try 1 oz of medium American or French oak chips. It’s likely to be a beer that changes about every pour. As the hops fade, the wood will increase, and god knows what the Brett will decide to do with all of that.
 

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I added 1 gallon of raspberries into 6.2 gallons of sour beer.

I did not take PH before adding raspberries. Should have.

PH: 3.16.

Opened it back up and threw in about .5 ounces of Amarillo hops.

That's a pretty serious sour! :)
 

fendersrule

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Going to call it "Raspberry pucker sour"

It's not too puckery for me, but it's definitely a tarty sour.

Gravity is 1.016 before raspberries, so it's got a little more time left.

Considering if I should throw more hops in. I do have some Citra. It's probably fine now though.
 

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Should i oak first and how long is good for contact time?
My first attempt at doing a quick oaked sour was adding 3 g/gallon of light toast oak chips for 5 days. There was a very, very subtle oak character. My plan is to go to 5 g/gallon x5-7 days on my next batch. So for a 5 gallon batch 1 oz should be pretty close to that.

@Beer666 Would love a report back on what you decide to do and how it turns out!
 

tizoc

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Has anyone added balsamic vinegar to a sour at bottling time?

Yesterday I was drinking a bottle of the Gose I brewed months ago, and decided I want to add a little acetic acid to it to see how it changed as recommended in the wiki.

I was going to add a little plain white vinegar but decided to instead use white *balsamic* vinegar I bought a few days ago (I didn't measure, it was probably about 10-20ml, diluted into 500ml of beer), and damn, just that little amount added a lot of complexity (although different, it kind of reminded me of a duchesse de bourgogne), I really liked it.

I'm now considering adding some balsamic vinegar at bottling time to the next sour I brew (white if pale, regular otherwise). Will probably start with about 100-150ml in a 20L batch (next bottle I drink I will measure the amount of vinegar added to get a better idea).

I suppose the safe approach is to heat it a bit and mix it with the boiled priming solution while it is still hot to kill anything that may be living in there.
 

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I've just starting using amyloglucosidase in mixed ferm beers for quick packaging...

...My next test was a split batch where I did one gallon each of 1.) Belle Saison + Brett c. 2) WB-06 + Brett c. and 3.) more Fair Isle dregs (love this mix). I packaged these after just 6 days as they had the same FG as my initial enzyme batch (1.001). At bottling they were more sacc-expressive on the aroma with some subtle brett flavor.
Just tried these yesterday and they are all carbed up after a little over 2 weeks:
- The Fair Isle dregs bottle was kinda musty and sulfury...definitely not as great as the first one I did that sat for 12 days before bottling (with some dry hop and a touch of oak). I'll see if it changes over time as I know there are a lot of bugs in there.
- WB-06 + Brett c. was a little one dimensional and felt pretty thin. At bottling I could smell and taste banana, but that is no longer there as I assume the Brett has metabolized it. Very mild sacc and brett expression with only light phenols and esters. Hoping this one will also change in complexity.
- Belle Saison + Brett c. is by far the best of these three. It has a creamier/fuller mouthfeel even though it is at the same 1.001 FG and carb level as the others. It still has a moderate level of spice and clove phenols. The esters come off as more of a "green" fruit and unripe banana. Not much brett funk but still very pleasant as is. We will see what happens over time.
 

The M

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Another co-sour fresh out of the oven and no filters used in that pic. It's raspberry & lime and it's awesome. Gotta love this co-souring method. Third one got into FV couple hours ago. Might add some mango & pineapple puree ...or something else. Haven't decided yet.

20200801_142555.jpg
 

orangemen5

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Great looking beer there. How many Lbs. of raspberries did you use.
 

fendersrule

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I am super impressed by my pre-souring/co-souring hybrid method. I think it gives you the benefits of both as far as taste is concerned. It also seemed for me to have added to a lower PH finish (which is great if you are a sour fan) as I had to "stop" the PH @ 3.18 by dry hopping. One of the benefits of this method is that it betters your chances of having an "increased" sour and it's no more risky than leaving a Carboy sitting without any inoculation over-night to wait for it to cool.

Taste profile hybrid method (US-05):

Lactobacillus "tang/funk": Moderate
Tartness/Acidity: Moderate-High (PH was close to 3.18 before raspberries)
Yeast: Low-Moderate.

Taste profile post "super sour starter" method:

Lactobacillus "tang/funk": Heavy
Tartness/Acidity: Low-Moderate (PH isn't substantially lowered for this method)
Yeast: None to Low. The strong Lactobacillus profile overpowers yeast profiles.

Both methods are great. I really recommend someone trying the hybrid method, and hold on. :)

116287823_2732876720322373_1699173430316549036_n.jpg

116139347_297828827956902_6385907828337812889_n.jpg


@orangemen5, for Raspberries and Blackberries, you want to use 1lb per gallon. You'll get plenty of taste. Raspberries are a cost-effective fruit to use. Other fruits (Peach, Blueberries, Cherries) you want to use 2lb per gallon which make these more cost prohibitive.

I don't recommend peach, or at least wait until you've done other fruits first. Peach is harder to extract flavor, even with a proper pitch. Probably similar to Blueberries.

Raspberries are a TERRIFIC, easily one of the best/easiest fruits to use in beer. You get the raspberry flavor you are after each and every time.

Blackberries I find primary adds tartness, but not as much of a deep "mellow" flavor profile like Raspberries. Overall, a relatively good fruit to use, but I think Raspberries have a better edge for a sour.

Cherries are next on my hit-list...just need to find a bulk-sale since that's a 2lb/gallon fruit. :)
 
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The M

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Great looking beer there. How many Lbs. of raspberries did you use.
Thx man. I brewed a 6gal batch and used 4.5lb raspberry puree and 2.2lb of lime puree. I was a bit worried when I kegged the beer because the lime was really overpowering. One week in the keg and lime taste mellowed out. Now it's really raspberry forward sour with nice and subtle lime kick in the backround.
 

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I am trying to make a fast red raw sour based on a Flanders red. Fermented with wlp4203 Beersel blend for a week and added lacto. The sample tasted surprisingly ok. I would imagine the FG to be around 1005 as i forgot to take a gravity reading. Hoping i can bottle with in a few months time.
 

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Has anyone managed to get a sour as thick and luxurious as Nevergonnagetit³: Xtreme by
The Veil Brewing Co.

or something similar. Wondered how much fruit per gallon you'd need and what water profile they use.

I worked alongside Omnipollo and was serving Bianca Blueberry Maple Pancake Lassi Gose and Karl the owner said there's 1338 blueberries in each can???
 

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@RPh_Guy @Funky Frank Thanks for your help. Much appreciated, will report back soon when i package it.

I have been adding a squirt of vinegar to my red sours when i bottle them made from the same beer. I will give the balsamic a go as well.
Just tried a pint with 5ml of regular (instead of white) balsamic vinegar. Be careful with the amounts in that case, it is much stronger and invasive, and IMO 5ml in 500ml was too much (maybe would not feel as invasive in a darker or stronger sour).
 
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Just tried a pint with 5ml of regular (instead of white) balsamic vinegar. Be careful with the amounts in that case, it is much stronger and invasive, and IMO 5ml in 500ml was too much (maybe would not feel as invasive in a darker or stronger sour).
Thanks, I added a note in the wiki about balsamic.
 

Dgallo

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Here is one of the 3 beers from a split batch I did using the modern Brett and co pitch method.


FV2 - 3 gallons
Cultures: Imperial Rustic yeast, Yeast Bay Brussels (Brett blend)
Current gravity 1.002
3lbs of White peaches
5 grams of lavender flowers
Dryhopped with Citra and mosaic

C55116C5-29D3-4ED7-A058-34464EA65003.jpeg
 

tizoc

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Thanks, I added a note in the wiki about balsamic.
I still have to experiment more with this, I only have that Gose I brewed a few months ago to try this stuff, because it is winter now and all I am doing is lagers until spring. White balsamic vinegar produced a very good result with this beer (extra level of complexity without changing the color, and with more in there than just acetic flavor). Every time I open a bottle I serve it with 5ml of white balsamic now.

Regular balsamic didn't make it taste bad, just not as good as with white balsamic, and that little amount made the beer much darker and murkier (even the foam got a bit dark, it didn't mix as well as white balsamic). I also felt it didn't taste as "sharp" as with white balsamic, although it had more of the "balsamic" flavor.

Next bottle I open will be served in two glasses so that I can do a side-by-side between white and regular.
 

braindead

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What water profile are you guys going with.
I`ll be doing a heavily fruited sour. Love the thicker sours.
 

Dgallo

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What water profile are you guys going with.
I`ll be doing a heavily fruited sour. Love the thicker sours.
Thickness or body in Beers is primarily grainbill and use of unfermentable Adjuncts like lactose of maltodextrin. water profile is about mouthfeel and impact on flavor.

I just use my dechlorinated tap water. The actual so4 is 48. When it’s shown as so4-s you need to multiply it by 3 to get the correct ppms

D47690D8-90CE-44AD-B341-D674EC2484C2.jpeg
 
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What water profile are you guys going with.
I`ll be doing a heavily fruited sour. Love the thicker sours.
Like anything else, it depends on your taste and your goals.

For my taste the sours I make that finish at 1.000 have great body, obviously without loads of unfermented sugar/dextrins.

It's well established that chloride increases body, fullness, and sweetness. Sulfate provides the opposite effect and should be kept low.

Proper mash pH along with a 30 minute dextrin rest (70-74°C) will also add plenty of body; avoid rests below 60°C. Wheat can help too.

Cheers
 

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So my first funky modern sour is now bottled and kegged. I used 20g of sherry cask chips in 25l (about 10 days) and dry hopped with 60g of eldorado and a 10g tea made from the same hop. Bottled with 1ml of brett in each bottle. Beer is clear and the taste is promising, friends were impressed. Very little oak flavour so i will look to up the amount next time. A little bit of brett, dry with some fruitiness from the hops. In hindsight i should of used 2 different yeast for bottling but i forgot. Looking forward to sharing these beers. Cheers
 

braindead

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Looks like somethings gone wrong.
24 hours after pitching the sour pitch and my yeast it's gone down from 4.5 to 2.6
WTF???
Actually doesn't even taste that sour.

Drain pour????
IMG_20200816_094001.jpg
 
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RPh_Guy

RPh_Guy

Bringing Sour Back
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Looks like somethings gone wrong.
24 hours after pitching the sour pitch and my yeast it's gone down from 4.5 to 2.6
WTF???
Actually doesn't even taste that sour.

Drain pour???? View attachment 694155
Probably inaccurate pH reading.
Never ever dump a beer because of a reading from an instrument.
 
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