Expired dry yeast - Kolsch

[Fastforwardx2]

I am going to brew a 5 gallon batch of Kolsch but my dry yeast is expired. Due to my location it could take 2 - 4 weeks to get new packets of yeast. I currently have 2 packets of LalBrew Premium Series Kolsch Style Ale Yeast by Lallemand that expired October 2021. I will be using yeast nutrient. The way I see it is that I have 3 options:
1) Pitch 1 packet 2) Pitch 2 packets or 3) Make a yeast starter from 1 packet (stir plate).
I am learning towards making a yeast starter but wanted to see what others thought or possibly other options I have not thought of. Thanks for any advice.

 

[squibload]

Don't take me for an expert BUT I've used out of date (3 years) dry yeast from the fridge,
made a starter to test their viability, haven't had one fail yet. They're tough I guess.

I have had old hops from the freezer that didn't smell very good, tossed 'em.

 

[Fastforwardx2]

Don't take me for an expert BUT I've used out of date (3 years) dry yeast from the fridge,
made a starter to test their viability, haven't had one fail yet. They're tough I guess.

I have had old hops from the freezer that didn't smell very good, tossed 'em.

Do you make a starter each time? I have kept the yeast in a fridge but I think starter will out my mind at ease and then I would still have that 2nd packet for later.

What water and DME ratio do you use for the starters for expired dry yeast?

 

[squibload]

Do you make a starter each time? I have kept the yeast in a fridge but I think starter will out my mind at ease and then I would still have that 2nd packet for later.

Yes except for apfelwein. I even made a warm starter for cider 'cause the juice was too cool, worked great.

What water and DME ratio do you use for the starters for expired dry yeast?

I read here somewhere that a SG of 1.040 was good but I'm not that exact & I like a small starter, maybe to not dilute my awesome wort? Have been adding 1/2 or 1/3 cup DME to 600 or so ml of water, seems to work. Also 1/4 tsp yeast nutrient.
I finally got an erlenmeyer flask so at least I _feel_ scientific!
Got a magnet stirrer too but haven't made the driver motor yet.

 

[squibload]

PS I'm cheap, a starter multiplies each packet, save that other one for another batch!

 

[ebbelwoi]

If you're in Iwakuni, try Brewland (https://www.sakeland.net/?mode=cate&cbid=113286&csid=1), Advanced Brewing (http://advanced-brewing.com/0_yeast.html#lallemand_koln) or the Malt Shop (https://themaltshop.biz/collections/dry-yeast/products/kolsch-dry-yeast) next time you need yeast.

I think Koln needs a 1g/L pitch rate, so I'd go with two packets. I wouldn't worry about it being a few months past the expiry date.

 

[Fastforwardx2]

If you're in Iwakuni, try Brewland (イースト（ビール＆ワイン） - 手作りビールキット、ビールサーバーの専門店：激安価格と豊富な品揃のブリューランド), Advanced Brewing (イースト_アドバンストブルーイング（手作りビールキット）) or the Malt Shop (KöLSCH Dry Yeast) next time you need yeast.

I think Koln needs a 1g/L pitch rate, so I'd go with two packets. I wouldn't worry about it being a few months past the expiry date.

I am not in Iwakuni this time. I am Okinawa and it is even harder to find brewing supplies and ingredients from what I remember from my time in Iwakuni. Thanks for letting me know where to go though.

I wonder why Kolsch need a larger pitch rate. From my understanding is I should ferment at 60F and then lager. Maybe I have it wrong but most the fermentation should be done "ale" temp, low side but still above traditional larger tempatures that would require 2 packets. Maybe I am missing something?

 

[Fastforwardx2]

I read here somewhere that a SG of 1.040 was good but I'm not that exact & I like a small starter, maybe to not dilute my awesome wort? Have been adding 1/2 or 1/3 cup DME to 600 or so ml of water, seems to work. Also 1/4 tsp yeast nutrient.
I finally got an erlenmeyer flask so at least I _feel_ scientific!
Got a magnet stirrer too but haven't made the driver motor yet.

Once I made my stir plate my starters really seam to take off and build so many more yeast than shaking it every so often.

 

[ebbelwoi]

Regarding pitch rate, I think it's that particular yeast (Lallemand Koln) that requires the larger pitch rate. I recall reading something about it having lower viability than other dry strains. Might wanna google that, though.

 

[RM-MN]

Making a starter from dry yeast may be detrimental and get you fewer yeast cells. Also, dry yeast, like everything food related, must have a best by date on it. Tests have shown that in proper storage dry yeast loses about 2% viability per year. Forget the starter, forget that the yeast is out of date. Give it wort that has been aerated so it can build more cells and pitch your yeast. It will make beer.

 

[wepeeler]

I am not in Iwakuni this time. I am Okinawa and it is even harder to find brewing supplies and ingredients from what I remember from my time in Iwakuni. Thanks for letting me know where to go though.

I wonder why Kolsch need a larger pitch rate. From my understanding is I should ferment at 60F and then lager. Maybe I have it wrong but most the fermentation should be done "ale" temp, low side but still above traditional larger tempatures that would require 2 packets. Maybe I am missing something?

I wouldn't make a starter with dry yeast. It screws up their cell walls and you'll end up with less yeast than if you just rehydrate. If you're worried about expired yeast, I would say just rehydrate 2 packs and pitch.

Kolsch needs more healthy yeast because the ferm temps range in the low 60s. Some Kolsch yeast prefers 58-60, some a little warmer 62-65. Most things I've read say ferment cooler for less esters, pretty much the same thing for any ale.

 

[Steveruch]

I brewed with Muntons yeast dated Nov '16 earlier this year with good results: direct pitch.

 

[odie]

I'd just dry pitch one packet...expiration dates are seriously conservative.

 

[ba-brewer]

LalBrew Premium Series Kolsch Style Ale Yeast can be a very slow to get going. Personally too slow slow for me, i would pitch extra or do a starter to build up the yeast.
'New' Lallemand Yeasts - New England and Kolsch

 

[squibload]

Interesting, I will study the "similar threads" as well. Most of my experience is with ale yeasts. I assumed yeast would multiply in a starter, but when I simply pitch them it works. Main reason I started using starters was to see if they were still alive. I also have yeast banks in freezer and fridge to keep from running to the store on brew day!

 

[squibload]

I'd just dry pitch one packet...expiration dates are seriously conservative.

Yep, I found a packet of tuna in the cupboard, 5 years out of "best by" date, it was fine! Shared with the kitties....

 

[ba-brewer]

Interesting, I will study the "similar threads" as well. Most of my experience is with ale yeasts. I assumed yeast would multiply in a starter, but when I simply pitch them it works. Main reason I started using starters was to see if they were still alive. I also have yeast banks in freezer and fridge to keep from running to the store on brew day!

I normally pitch dry yeast by sprinkling on top of the wort, sometime rehydrate but not too often. The yeast in question is a oddball that is why I said I would make a starter. Having a beer sitting without obvious activity for 36hours is way too long for me. Someone said the yeast has a shorter lag on repitch so maybe doing a starter would wake it up and not have such a long time to start.

 

[squibload]

Agree, I want some CO2 in there ASAP!
A batch of wort is like a giant starter.

No kegs (yet?) but considered getting a CO2 bottle for purging fermenters.

 

[Fastforwardx2]

Making a starter from dry yeast may be detrimental and get you fewer yeast cells. Also, dry yeast, like everything food related, must have a best by date on it. Tests have shown that in proper storage dry yeast loses about 2% viability per year. Forget the starter, forget that the yeast is out of date. Give it wort that has been aerated so it can build more cells and pitch your yeast. It will make beer.

I have heard that when refrigerated dry yeast only lose 2% viability but I don't understand how making a starter decreases cell count. If a made a 5 gallon starter my cell count would go down?

 

[Fastforwardx2]

I wouldn't make a starter with dry yeast. It screws up their cell walls and you'll end up with less yeast than if you just rehydrate. If you're worried about expired yeast, I would say just rehydrate 2 packs and pitch.

Kolsch needs more healthy yeast because the ferm temps range in the low 60s. Some Kolsch yeast prefers 58-60, some a little warmer 62-65. Most things I've read say ferment cooler for less esters, pretty much the same thing for any ale.

I don't understand how making a yeast starter would automatically decrease cell count. I do recall there being something in the dry yeast to protect/help get them started but I don't understand why they would not reproduce at a rate quicker than they are dieing. Doesn't the cell count go up in a 5 gallon batch when I pitch dry yeast. Is there something specific to this yeast strain?

I guess I didn't think it was big change from my usual ale fermentation temperature range of 65F-66F to 58F-60F that it would require double the starting yeast. I always thought lager yeast fermenting at 45F-55F is when you needed double. Thanks for the heads up on this. Regardless of what I end up doing I will make sure to pitch at an increased rate.

 

[Fastforwardx2]

LalBrew Premium Series Kolsch Style Ale Yeast can be a very slow to get going. Personally too slow slow for me, i would pitch extra or do a starter to build up the yeast.
'New' Lallemand Yeasts - New England and Kolsch

Thanks for the heads up. This seems more of a reason to do a starter but I am worried now because a few people have said doing a starter with dry yeast would decrease my cell count.

 

[Fastforwardx2]

Thanks to everyone that was telling me to pitch 2 packets. According to Lallemand's pitch rate calculator I should pitch 28 grams but 2 packets would get me 22 grams and everything I have read and watched with 2 packets they had good success.

 

[RufusBrewer]

It is important to pitch your yeast into beer before you pitch you yeast into beer. Import - if you call the first pitch a "starter".

I have been very happy with doing Shaken, Not Stirred (aka SNS) style starters.

If I was in your situation, I would rehydrate the yeast, then do a SNS starter. It is a do no harm, could not hurt approach.

 

[z-bob]

I used a very old packet of Nottingham recently. I don't remember how old; 15 or 20 years maybe? It had been stored in the fridge all that time. I rehydrated it in GoFerm, then pitched it. Lag time was a little longer than usual but not much.

 

[squibload]

Reading "Man I love Apfelwein", up to post 10,088, might be on-topic here.
Could be specific to the particular yeast which I assume to be Montrachet...

Want to bring some notes from my process to the forum. Rhino farts! I had my first two batches give off strong sulpher type smells for a week or so about 5 days after pitching per instructions from OP.

I deviated on my 3rd batch by rehydrating the yeast first. and not only did I have a super start on fermentation, I also got zero Rhino Farts! my basement does not smell like egg death. I will rehydrate prior to pitching dry yeast from now on. Why not? takes 30 extra min. and If you are confident in your sanitization you will have only positives to gain.

 

[ba-brewer]

Thanks for the heads up. This seems more of a reason to do a starter but I am worried now because a few people have said doing a starter with dry yeast would decrease my cell count.

I can't comment on losing cell count by doing a starter, but I do know there is a saturation point to the number of cells a given amount of wort will support. If you over pitch for the amount wort you use in your starter I could see how it could reduce the cell count.

Rehydrating vs sprinkling dry on the wort is suppose to give you a higher cell count. The MFG says you can do it so I do usually unless I am doing a lager I plan to ferment cold where I want the most cells I can get.


This calculator has a built in best practice checker so as long as you dont have any items that turn red your starter should be good.
Homebrew Dad's Online Yeast Starter Calculator

I would use a pack or possible only a portion of pack and pitch it so you you get a growth of 4 to 7.

 

[wepeeler]

I don't understand how making a yeast starter would automatically decrease cell count. I do recall there being something in the dry yeast to protect/help get them started but I don't understand why they would not reproduce at a rate quicker than they are dieing. Doesn't the cell count go up in a 5 gallon batch when I pitch dry yeast. Is there something specific to this yeast strain?

I guess I didn't think it was big change from my usual ale fermentation temperature range of 65F-66F to 58F-60F that it would require double the starting yeast. I always thought lager yeast fermenting at 45F-55F is when you needed double. Thanks for the heads up on this. Regardless of what I end up doing I will make sure to pitch at an increased rate.

From Yeast: The Practical Guide to Beer Fermentation: "Another case where you normally do not want to make a starter is with dry yeast. Dry yeast is inexpensive, and it is usually cheaper, easier, and safer to buy more dry yeast than to make a large starter. Many experts suggest that placing dry yeast in a starter just depletes the cell reserves that the yeast manufacturer tries to build into their product. For dry yeast do a proper rehydration in tap water; do not make a starter."

So basically, the yeast have to start from scratch to build up energy to start and finish fermentation, which defeats the purpose of making a starter.

From How to Brew by John Palmer: "Often the concentration of sugars in wort is high enough that the yeast can not draw enough water across the cell membranes to restart their metabolism. For best results, re-hydrate 2 packets of dry yeast in warm water (95-105°F) and then proof the yeast by adding some sugar to see if they are still alive after de-hydration and storage."

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

In additional to the pitch rate calculator (link), Lallemand has a downloads section (link) with current information that may be of interest.

 

[Fastforwardx2]

It is important to pitch your yeast into beer before you pitch you yeast into beer. Import - if you call the first pitch a "starter".

I have been very happy with doing Shaken, Not Stirred (aka SNS) style starters.

If I was in your situation, I would rehydrate the yeast, then do a SNS starter. It is a do no harm, could not hurt approach.

I was think they same thing but then there were a few on here saying a starter had negative effects for dry yeast. I just don't understand how it would be so different than pitching to 5 gallons of wort.

 

[Fastforwardx2]

I used a very old packet of Nottingham recently. I don't remember how old; 15 or 20 years maybe? It had been stored in the fridge all that time. I rehydrated it in GoFerm, then pitched it. Lag time was a little longer than usual but not much.

Did the resulting beer have any noticable off-flavors? Even when you under pitch there will be fermentation but the yeast being stressed might produce off-flavors. Curious how it tasted. Did you mean 15-20 months? If years I am really impressed.

 

[Dog House Brew]

I personally would pitch both packets and walk away. I don’t even call what you have as expired. If I went by those dates, I’d never have yeast to brew with. I’d have zero worries with dry yeast. I’d direct pitch it slightly above my target temp and reduce it once it gets going.

 

[Fastforwardx2]

From Yeast: The Practical Guide to Beer Fermentation: "Another case where you normally do not want to make a starter is with dry yeast. Dry yeast is inexpensive, and it is usually cheaper, easier, and safer to buy more dry yeast than to make a large starter. Many experts suggest that placing dry yeast in a starter just depletes the cell reserves that the yeast manufacturer tries to build into their product. For dry yeast do a proper rehydration in tap water; do not make a starter."

So basically, the yeast have to start from scratch to build up energy to start and finish fermentation, which defeats the purpose of making a starter.

From How to Brew by John Palmer: "Often the concentration of sugars in wort is high enough that the yeast can not draw enough water across the cell membranes to restart their metabolism. For best results, re-hydrate 2 packets of dry yeast in warm water (95-105°F) and then proof the yeast by adding some sugar to see if they are still alive after de-hydration and storage."

I do agree typically it is just cheaper and easier to purchase more packets of dry yeast but in my situation that is not a viable option. I do not agree that you should never make a starter though. So if my packet was only at 40% viability would it be better to make a starter to grow the cell count. I should add if I do go the starter route I would rehydrate the yeast prior to pitching to the starter. I am not saying my yeast is at 40% viability but just for the example.

I am glad that you have brought this up because it has been a good discussion for me that caused me to research more about dry yeast. From what I have read it appears there is good reason to believe that direct pitching can reduces your cell count and that might be why starters are said to reduce your cell count if you direct pitch into it.

I would like to note that I am now leaning more towards your suggestion since my yeast I only a few months expired that I just rehydrate 2 packets and then pitch in my batch. Really appreciate you helping me out with this and hope you have not thought I was just arguing with you.

CHEERS

 

[Fastforwardx2]

I personally would pitch both packets and walk away. I don’t even call what you have as expired. If I went by those dates, I’d never have yeast to brew with. I’d have zero worries with dry yeast. I’d direct pitch it slightly above my target temp and reduce it once it gets going.

I am starting to see that the more I research this the more common it is to see people pitching with dry yeast that is well over a year expired without notice off flavors. It seems silky to me that I was this worried in the first place. +1 to pitching slightly above target temp and then reducing. I will use this tip for sure. Thanks.

 

[Dog House Brew]

I’ve never found any detectable difference when hydrating. I just direct pitch any dry yeast now. Sometimes these thing can be over complicated. I don’t use dry very often, but when I do it is usually past expiration. I’ve never had an issue with any direct dry pitch.

 

[RM-MN]

I was think they same thing but then there were a few on here saying a starter had negative effects for dry yeast. I just don't understand how it would be so different than pitching to 5 gallons of wort.

Most of the time you do a starter the starter will be for 24 hours. That is where depleting the nutrients that dry yeast probably comes into play. Direct pitching means that the yeast start propagating in the intended 5 gallons.

I’ve never found any detectable difference when hydrating. I just direct pitch any dry yeast now. Sometimes these thing can be over complicated. I don’t use dry very often, but when I do it is usually past expiration. I’ve never had an issue with any direct dry pitch.

I think that rehydrating is recommended by some allows the majority of the yeast to survive. Direct pitching can kill up to half of the cells for the dry yeast but it only takes about 90 minutes for the yeast to replicate which then brings you back to the pitching amount. That means your fermentation was probably delayed starting by 90 minutes. In homebrewing that probably isn't significant. In a commercial brewery that 90 minutes may be significant.

 

[z-bob]

Did the resulting beer have any noticable off-flavors? Even when you under pitch there will be fermentation but the yeast being stressed might produce off-flavors. Curious how it tasted. Did you mean 15-20 months? If years I am really impressed.

I don't know yet, it's still in the fermenter waiting to be bottled. I should get to that this weekend. Fermentation was fast and vigorous when it got started. It was a stupid risk that I took, but it seems to have worked.

 

[wepeeler]

I do agree typically it is just cheaper and easier to purchase more packets of dry yeast but in my situation that is not a viable option. I do not agree that you should never make a starter though. So if my packet was only at 40% viability would it be better to make a starter to grow the cell count. I should add if I do go the starter route I would rehydrate the yeast prior to pitching to the starter. I am not saying my yeast is at 40% viability but just for the example.

I am glad that you have brought this up because it has been a good discussion for me that caused me to research more about dry yeast. From what I have read it appears there is good reason to believe that direct pitching can reduces your cell count and that might be why starters are said to reduce your cell count if you direct pitch into it.

I would like to note that I am now leaning more towards your suggestion since my yeast I only a few months expired that I just rehydrate 2 packets and then pitch in my batch. Really appreciate you helping me out with this and hope you have not thought I was just arguing with you.

CHEERS

We're all in it to learn! No worries!

The never make a starter bit refers to dry yeast only. It's actually very advantageous to make a starter from liquid yeast. I do it 99% of the time.

If making a starter from dry yeast, rehydrated or not, is detrimental to the yeast, why do it at all? I completely understand your thinking "starters make more cells" logic. I was there with you. But I trust the experts on this one. 2 packs of rehydrated dry yeast, and you're good to go. No hassle of making a starter, and you'll have healthier yeast.

 

[Fastforwardx2]

We're all in it to learn! No worries!

The never make a starter bit refers to dry yeast only. It's actually very advantageous to make a starter from liquid yeast. I do it 99% of the time.

If making a starter from dry yeast, rehydrated or not, is detrimental to the yeast, why do it at all? I completely understand your thinking "starters make more cells" logic. I was there with you. But I trust the experts on this one. 2 packs of rehydrated dry yeast, and you're good to go. No hassle of making a starter, and you'll have healthier yeast.

Learning I am doing

I was referring to dry yeast when agreeing to starters not typically worth it for dry yeast.

I am not trying to say the experts are wrong but merely that most likely they are not considering my specific situation. From what I have seen so far, which I am just digging into this, is that the reduction in cell count for a dry yeast starter could be due to the lack of rehydrating the dry yeast prior to pitching into the starter.

I seem to remember years ago when I started homebrewing that experts thought it was needed to have a secondary fermentor for almost every batch but now that trend has all but died. I think it is important to understand why the experts are saying what they are. They can't predict everyone's situation and therefore typically say things under a general guise and not absolute. Understanding the why will better prepare one to come up with solutions to unique situations. I am one to go with hassle free when there is no major need for extra effort though lol.

This makes me want to do some experiments ...if only I had the time and space

 

[Fastforwardx2]

I don't know yet, it's still in the fermenter waiting to be bottled. I should get to that this weekend. Fermentation was fast and vigorous when it got started. It was a stupid risk that I took, but it seems to have worked.

I am really curious how it comes out!

 

[z-bob]

I am really curious how it comes out!

I just bottled it tonight. The sample tasted fine but I won't really know for a couple of weeks. I saved the yeast trub to pitch again soon. (and I threw out most of my jars of yeast in the fridge because they weren't labeled.)

I found the empty Nottingham packet; the expiration date was 05/05.