Expired dry yeast - Kolsch

[Dog House Brew]

I personally would pitch both packets and walk away. I don’t even call what you have as expired. If I went by those dates, I’d never have yeast to brew with. I’d have zero worries with dry yeast. I’d direct pitch it slightly above my target temp and reduce it once it gets going.

 

[Fastforwardx2]

From Yeast: The Practical Guide to Beer Fermentation: "Another case where you normally do not want to make a starter is with dry yeast. Dry yeast is inexpensive, and it is usually cheaper, easier, and safer to buy more dry yeast than to make a large starter. Many experts suggest that placing dry yeast in a starter just depletes the cell reserves that the yeast manufacturer tries to build into their product. For dry yeast do a proper rehydration in tap water; do not make a starter."

So basically, the yeast have to start from scratch to build up energy to start and finish fermentation, which defeats the purpose of making a starter.

From How to Brew by John Palmer: "Often the concentration of sugars in wort is high enough that the yeast can not draw enough water across the cell membranes to restart their metabolism. For best results, re-hydrate 2 packets of dry yeast in warm water (95-105°F) and then proof the yeast by adding some sugar to see if they are still alive after de-hydration and storage."

I do agree typically it is just cheaper and easier to purchase more packets of dry yeast but in my situation that is not a viable option. I do not agree that you should never make a starter though. So if my packet was only at 40% viability would it be better to make a starter to grow the cell count. I should add if I do go the starter route I would rehydrate the yeast prior to pitching to the starter. I am not saying my yeast is at 40% viability but just for the example.

I am glad that you have brought this up because it has been a good discussion for me that caused me to research more about dry yeast. From what I have read it appears there is good reason to believe that direct pitching can reduces your cell count and that might be why starters are said to reduce your cell count if you direct pitch into it.

I would like to note that I am now leaning more towards your suggestion since my yeast I only a few months expired that I just rehydrate 2 packets and then pitch in my batch. Really appreciate you helping me out with this and hope you have not thought I was just arguing with you.

CHEERS

 

[Fastforwardx2]

I personally would pitch both packets and walk away. I don’t even call what you have as expired. If I went by those dates, I’d never have yeast to brew with. I’d have zero worries with dry yeast. I’d direct pitch it slightly above my target temp and reduce it once it gets going.

I am starting to see that the more I research this the more common it is to see people pitching with dry yeast that is well over a year expired without notice off flavors. It seems silky to me that I was this worried in the first place. +1 to pitching slightly above target temp and then reducing. I will use this tip for sure. Thanks.

 

[Dog House Brew]

I’ve never found any detectable difference when hydrating. I just direct pitch any dry yeast now. Sometimes these thing can be over complicated. I don’t use dry very often, but when I do it is usually past expiration. I’ve never had an issue with any direct dry pitch.

 

[RM-MN]

I was think they same thing but then there were a few on here saying a starter had negative effects for dry yeast. I just don't understand how it would be so different than pitching to 5 gallons of wort.

Most of the time you do a starter the starter will be for 24 hours. That is where depleting the nutrients that dry yeast probably comes into play. Direct pitching means that the yeast start propagating in the intended 5 gallons.

I’ve never found any detectable difference when hydrating. I just direct pitch any dry yeast now. Sometimes these thing can be over complicated. I don’t use dry very often, but when I do it is usually past expiration. I’ve never had an issue with any direct dry pitch.

I think that rehydrating is recommended by some allows the majority of the yeast to survive. Direct pitching can kill up to half of the cells for the dry yeast but it only takes about 90 minutes for the yeast to replicate which then brings you back to the pitching amount. That means your fermentation was probably delayed starting by 90 minutes. In homebrewing that probably isn't significant. In a commercial brewery that 90 minutes may be significant.

 

[z-bob]

Did the resulting beer have any noticable off-flavors? Even when you under pitch there will be fermentation but the yeast being stressed might produce off-flavors. Curious how it tasted. Did you mean 15-20 months? If years I am really impressed.

I don't know yet, it's still in the fermenter waiting to be bottled. I should get to that this weekend. Fermentation was fast and vigorous when it got started. It was a stupid risk that I took, but it seems to have worked.

 

[wepeeler]

I do agree typically it is just cheaper and easier to purchase more packets of dry yeast but in my situation that is not a viable option. I do not agree that you should never make a starter though. So if my packet was only at 40% viability would it be better to make a starter to grow the cell count. I should add if I do go the starter route I would rehydrate the yeast prior to pitching to the starter. I am not saying my yeast is at 40% viability but just for the example.

I am glad that you have brought this up because it has been a good discussion for me that caused me to research more about dry yeast. From what I have read it appears there is good reason to believe that direct pitching can reduces your cell count and that might be why starters are said to reduce your cell count if you direct pitch into it.

I would like to note that I am now leaning more towards your suggestion since my yeast I only a few months expired that I just rehydrate 2 packets and then pitch in my batch. Really appreciate you helping me out with this and hope you have not thought I was just arguing with you.

CHEERS

We're all in it to learn! No worries!

The never make a starter bit refers to dry yeast only. It's actually very advantageous to make a starter from liquid yeast. I do it 99% of the time.

If making a starter from dry yeast, rehydrated or not, is detrimental to the yeast, why do it at all? I completely understand your thinking "starters make more cells" logic. I was there with you. But I trust the experts on this one. 2 packs of rehydrated dry yeast, and you're good to go. No hassle of making a starter, and you'll have healthier yeast.

 

[Fastforwardx2]

We're all in it to learn! No worries!

The never make a starter bit refers to dry yeast only. It's actually very advantageous to make a starter from liquid yeast. I do it 99% of the time.

If making a starter from dry yeast, rehydrated or not, is detrimental to the yeast, why do it at all? I completely understand your thinking "starters make more cells" logic. I was there with you. But I trust the experts on this one. 2 packs of rehydrated dry yeast, and you're good to go. No hassle of making a starter, and you'll have healthier yeast.

Learning I am doing

I was referring to dry yeast when agreeing to starters not typically worth it for dry yeast.

I am not trying to say the experts are wrong but merely that most likely they are not considering my specific situation. From what I have seen so far, which I am just digging into this, is that the reduction in cell count for a dry yeast starter could be due to the lack of rehydrating the dry yeast prior to pitching into the starter.

I seem to remember years ago when I started homebrewing that experts thought it was needed to have a secondary fermentor for almost every batch but now that trend has all but died. I think it is important to understand why the experts are saying what they are. They can't predict everyone's situation and therefore typically say things under a general guise and not absolute. Understanding the why will better prepare one to come up with solutions to unique situations. I am one to go with hassle free when there is no major need for extra effort though lol.

This makes me want to do some experiments ...if only I had the time and space

 

[Fastforwardx2]

I don't know yet, it's still in the fermenter waiting to be bottled. I should get to that this weekend. Fermentation was fast and vigorous when it got started. It was a stupid risk that I took, but it seems to have worked.

I am really curious how it comes out!

 

[z-bob]

I am really curious how it comes out!

I just bottled it tonight. The sample tasted fine but I won't really know for a couple of weeks. I saved the yeast trub to pitch again soon. (and I threw out most of my jars of yeast in the fridge because they weren't labeled.)

I found the empty Nottingham packet; the expiration date was 05/05.

 

[Ridenour64]

Does anyone have a source that discusses starters with dry yeast. Not text from “Yeast”, but actual studies they are referring to? If following pitch calculators, I can’t see how buying multiple packs of dry yeast makes economical sense. Sure there is a convenience factor. I have always made starters, dry or liquid, and have never started with more than 1 pack.

I am making a 10 gallon batch, 11.5 gallons in the fermenter, 1.056 OG Pilsner. Brew father says 6 packs of yeast. 34/70 is $7 per pack. Is anyone really buying this much dry yeast?

 

[z-bob]

I don't make starters with dry yeast, but I proof them in warm water (sometimes with GoFerm) Then I add a bit of wort or must to the yeast to equalize the temperature and osmotic pressure a little before I dump the proofed yeast into the fermenter.

I have some *really* old packets of yeast in the fridge. The original Edme dry yeast, and some Red Star Flor Sherry yeast. If I were to try to use them, I probably would make a starter.

 

[Crazyspicychef]

I am going to brew a 5 gallon batch of Kolsch but my dry yeast is expired. Due to my location it could take 2 - 4 weeks to get new packets of yeast. I currently have 2 packets of LalBrew Premium Series Kolsch Style Ale Yeast by Lallemand that expired October 2021. I will be using yeast nutrient. The way I see it is that I have 3 options:
1) Pitch 1 packet 2) Pitch 2 packets or 3) Make a yeast starter from 1 packet (stir plate).
I am learning towards making a yeast starter but wanted to see what others thought or possibly other options I have not thought of. Thanks for any advice.

If you can find cans of Perfect Pitch, that stuff is amazing.
I just sanitize a growler, add the perfect pitch, contents of yeast packet and a 16oz bottle of water.
Cover loosely with foil and give it a swirl every time you walk by for up to 3 days. I pour off most of the spent wort and just use the yeast on the bottom. Works great for older yeast, strong beers, or any beer for that matter.

 

[McMullan]

Do your own empirical study. It's going to reflect what works best for you. I'm currently ageing a few packs of Diamond Lager dry yeast, from the same batch ordered from one reseller. I'd have done the same for 34/70, to confirm the claims, but it ain't cheap. If Fermentis (or any other primary supplier) want their claims confirmed independently, I'm waiting in my yeast lab . To be honest, in terms what dry brewer's yeast I have sourced locally (in Norway or shipped to Norway from the UK and Germany), I'm really not that impressed.

If you make a starter with dry yeast, don't bother oxygenating the starter wort. But do oxygenate the FV wort. You know this already. It's just a reminder.