English Ales - What's your favorite recipe?

[Miraculix]

I also didn't like brown malt at all. But After half a year of aging the beer was really good... I used ten percent in that one, it was an experimental brew to get to know the malt.

 

[bierhaus15]

In my experience, yeast choice and water chemistry makes a big difference in brown malt character. Highly attenuative and dry/tart yeasts like Notty and S-04 tend to emphasize the the acrid-tannic character of brown malts, as does high sulfate and soft water, whereas fruiter and rounder yeasts give a much more mellow/pleasant character. Moreover, historical type recipes that follow the "Brown, Amber, Black" format tend to take much longer to come around than a similar recipe with a good portion of crystal malt or high residual sweetness.

I recently brewed a double batch of Fullers Porter and with 10% TF brown malt, the beer is ridiculously smooth, chocolaty and rich tasting even at 2 weeks in the keg.

 

[Miraculix]

In my experience, yeast choice and water chemistry makes a big difference in brown malt character. Highly attenuative and dry/tart yeasts like Notty and S-04 tend to emphasize the the acrid-tannic character of brown malts, as does high sulfate and soft water, whereas fruiter and rounder yeasts give a much more mellow/pleasant character. Moreover, historical type recipes that follow the "Brown, Amber, Black" format tend to take much longer to come around than a similar recipe with a good portion of crystal malt or high residual sweetness.

I recently brewed a double batch of Fullers Porter and with 10% TF brown malt, the beer is ridiculously smooth, chocolaty and rich tasting even at 2 weeks in the keg.

Makes sense, my test beer was brewed with Notty and "acrid" probably matches the first 3 month's taste the best.

 

[bwible]

The 2008 BJCP guidelines has 8c ESB, but at least noted that it referred to a specific beer in the UK, the 2015 version has 11c Strong Bitter but the damage has been done.

The 2015 guidelines are a big improvement on the 2008 version but still for instance only think that mild can be dark and under 3.8% although they do mention some of the diversity in passing.

Didn’t they also used to have “English Pale Ale” as a separate style, ie Bass Ale, Whitbread, and others? I guess thats under Strong Bitter now? Doesn’t seem right to me either to be lumping these beers under bitter.

 

[kmarkstevens]

You could try some/more amber malts then, they can also have a bit of variation.Won't be similar but will a fair amount of flavour
crisp - quite light and biscuity
fawcetts - much more strongly flavoured, with coffee notes
simpsons - in the middle

I think most people who like beers with brown malts like them better after they have aged at least 6 weeks or so. But if you didn't like it in the taddy porter then it might well not be for you! Fullers London Porter is another with brown malt, Simpsons I think, it could be another to try to confirm.

Appreciate the feedback. Not sure I'm willing to wait 6 months for the brown ale to turn around. Oddly enough, I'm perfectly fine with black malt

Will try the Fuller's Porter and see if that one is alright for my palate. Don't have much of a English beer selection here and one always wonders how fresh and/or how long the bottle has been under the florescent lights. I can get the Fuller's Porter. In fact, just re-tried the London Pride, and now the "marmalade" is obvious after reading descriptions here.

Never tried amber malts but have made a note to put some into my next on-line order.

BTW, just curious what folks from over the pond think of the canned Boddington's pub ale with the widget? How representative is it of what you can get in pubs in the UK? Would it be a "best bitter" under the guidelines? (I think it's a really good beer. Have been drinking it since living in Hong Kong 20 years ago. Local supermarket has this and Guinness for ~USD2/can)

 

[rhys333]

Decided I don't like the taste/character of brown malt. I've made 3-4 test batches and brown malt from 2 different sources. Confirmed it with a bottle of Samuel Smith Taddy Porter. It's just not for me. Guess I'll have to use Invert 3 or 4 and chocolate to do something similar. Any other suggestions for subbing out the brown malt are welcome.

What is it that you don't like about brown malt, and how much did you use? I include about 10% in a porter and adds a subtle complexity, but nothing more.

 

[Mer-man]

In my experience, yeast choice and water chemistry makes a big difference in brown malt character. Highly attenuative and dry/tart yeasts like Notty and S-04 tend to emphasize the the acrid-tannic character of brown malts, as does high sulfate and soft water, whereas fruiter and rounder yeasts give a much more mellow/pleasant character. Moreover, historical type recipes that follow the "Brown, Amber, Black" format tend to take much longer to come around than a similar recipe with a good portion of crystal malt or high residual sweetness.

I recently brewed a double batch of Fullers Porter and with 10% TF brown malt, the beer is ridiculously smooth, chocolaty and rich tasting even at 2 weeks in the keg.

And the yeast you used was . . . ?

 

[schmurf]

...
BTW, just curious what folks from over the pond think of the canned Boddington's pub ale with the widget? How representative is it of what you can get in pubs in the UK? Would it be a "best bitter" under the guidelines? (I think it's a really good beer. Have been drinking it since living in Hong Kong 20 years ago. Local supermarket has this and Guinness for ~USD2/can)

I'm not from the UK, but when I started to visit in the 80's I fell in love with Boddington's ... it was the first ale I had there Some years later, back home, I bought some cans and it wasn't the same thing...it wasn't bad, but not the same thing.

 

[kmarkstevens]

What is it that you don't like about brown malt, and how much did you use? I include about 10% in a porter and adds a subtle complexity, but nothing more.

The acrid taste gets me. Did a 1940 Whitbread Porter with 14% brown malt and WLP017 Whitbread yeast. And a 1937 Courage Stout at 14% brown using a my house mix of ~12 English yeasts. (I shant be using that again as to muddled and the WLP026 is giving off POF flavors I don't like, but it was a fun experiment). Pretty sure I made another porter in there but can't find the notes.

Okay, so I still have a bit unused brown malt. Therefore, I should give it a try and use 10% or less to see if that adds complexity without being over bearing. At the same time, should brew with a less attenuative yeast like a Fullers or Whitbread. And I should also try the Fullers London Porter. And if it still tastes like ass, I can say I tried and it's not for my palate.

 

[bierhaus15]

And the yeast you used was . . . ?

Fullers... Imperial Pub. It was actually a 12 gal split batch and the other half used Courage, which is another fruity-lower attenuating strain, and similarly tastes very nice.

The recipe was from the Fullers ESB thread; something like: 73% Pale, 14% C60, 10% Brown, and 3% Chocolate. Mashed at 150F for 60 min. Pitched at 0.75 m/c/ml/P and oxygenated to 12 ppm. Gravity went from 1.054 to 1.012 in 4 days for both. Just about a perfect fermentation.

 

[Hanglow]

Boddingtons is one of the most abused beers in recent british brewing history I think

Its claim to fame was that it was light coloured and relatively very bitter compared to other bitters from England at the time (1960s/1970s time frame) But since then it got browner and less bitter as the brand was bought up and the cask version dissappeared a number of years ago now. I've not had it in quite a while in cans and I think I'd only bother with it if it made a cask comeback. I'm also fairly sure the beer you get abroad is not the same as the one in cans in the uk, the export one might well be better as its stronger I think. It probably is similar to kegged mass market bitters like John Smiths, Worthington cream flow etc.

If you are interested, here's a recipe based on the 1968 version which I might have posted before. It was measured as 35 IBU in the glass iirc in the mid 70s , so I would almost double the hops in a homebrew setting to get just over 50 IBU tinseth as I think that would get you close. It's more like a modern golden ale in its paleness and bitterness than what the canned version is, it would be very different to this

OG 1.036
FG 1.007
3.8% abv
English Pale Malt - 77.5%
Lager Malt - 15.5%
Enzymic malt (acid malt) 2.5%
Wheat - 2.5%
Maize 2%

Hops - English, eg EKG mainly bittering. Attenuative yeast, finishes dry.

No idea what the water was like that they used, I think Manchester mainly gets their water from the Lakes which would be pretty soft. But if they used their own well, no idea. Nor what additions they made to the water

 

[rhys333]

The acrid taste gets me. Did a 1940 Whitbread Porter with 14% brown malt and WLP017 Whitbread yeast. And a 1937 Courage Stout at 14% brown using a my house mix of ~12 English yeasts. (I shant be using that again as to muddled and the WLP026 is giving off POF flavors I don't like, but it was a fun experiment). Pretty sure I made another porter in there but can't find the notes.

Okay, so I still have a bit unused brown malt. Therefore, I should give it a try and use 10% or less to see if that adds complexity without being over bearing. At the same time, should brew with a less attenuative yeast like a Fullers or Whitbread. And I should also try the Fullers London Porter. And if it still tastes like ass, I can say I tried and it's not for my palate.

I've never experienced an acrid taste, maybe very slightly drying, but smooth and easy to drink. Have you ruled out other potential factors such as mash pH? Before I managed mash chemistry, I used to get acrid flavors occasionally from too-high pH.

 

[Miraculix]

I've never experienced an acrid taste, maybe very slightly drying, but smooth and easy to drink. Have you ruled out other potential factors such as mash pH? Before I managed mash chemistry, I used to get acrid flavors occasionally from too-high pH.

Don't know, with such a dark grain bill it is not so likely, although cannot be ruled out completely.

My personal idea is, that brown malt maybe differs heavily from maltster to maltster? Mine was also horribly acrid, although I did not pay attention to pH at that point. And mine was lighter in colour, just pale malt and ten percent brown, but the water was low alkalinity as far as I remember.

 

[Landlord]

Don't know, with such a dark grain bill it is not so likely, although cannot be ruled out completely.

My personal idea is, that brown malt maybe differs heavily from maltster to maltster? Mine was also horribly acrid, although I did not pay attention to pH at that point. And mine was lighter in colour, just pale malt and ten percent brown, but the water was low alkalinity as far as I remember.

I tried brown malt (10%) in a london porter clone, and I really didnt like it either, very bitter. I always wondered why others rave about it.

I do have VERY hard brewing water- like 300ppm HCO3 but then again I use lactic acid in the mash and sparge to 5.5 pH.

It seems weird to me that it would be an alkalinity thing- typically we think of hard water as good for dark beers?

 

[Hanglow]

What about the sulphate? Not that I know if that would be an issue or not with brown malt

 

[rhys333]

Don't know, with such a dark grain bill it is not so likely, although cannot be ruled out completely.

My personal idea is, that brown malt maybe differs heavily from maltster to maltster? Mine was also horribly acrid, although I did not pay attention to pH at that point. And mine was lighter in colour, just pale malt and ten percent brown, but the water was low alkalinity as far as I remember.

Could well be the case. I'm using a UK variety, but I can't recall which maltster from memory. I've heard similar tales with black malt. UK Black Patent is one of my favorites, but I hear that some of that domestic varieties can be a bit harsh and one dimensional.

 

[Miraculix]

Could well be the case. I'm using a UK variety, but I can't recall which maltster from memory. I've heard similar tales with black malt. UK Black Patent is one of my favorites, but I hear that some of that domestic varieties can be a bit harsh and one dimensional.

I really like black malt, mine is totally smooth. I even use it as a caffeine free coffee substitute sometimes! It's naturally a bit sweet when steeped.

 

[kmarkstevens]

@Hanglow Thanks for posting that recipe. Looks pretty dang good. The Strangeways Boddington cask is legendary

I don't look at my mash ph. Maybe I should start. We have soft water in the Seattle area that I treat as per the recommendation of my HBS guru (5ml of gypsum and 5ml of calcium chloride).

 

[Hanglow]

This blog post about Boddingtons is well worth a read if you haven't allready read it, including the comments under the post.

https://boakandbailey.com/2014/05/boddies-buried/


I also have very soft, low alkalinity water, means we can brew anything really as long as you know what to add when needed . For pale beers I wouldn't worry about the ph too much, darker strong stouts would probably need some alkalinity added though

 

[kmarkstevens]

This blog post about Boddingtons is well worth a read if you haven't allready read it, including the comments under the post.

https://boakandbailey.com/2014/05/boddies-buried/

Interesting read, thanks!

 

[kmarkstevens]

How long should brown malt be steeped? 30 minutes at ~150F?

Just realized maybe I have down brown malt a disservice and steeped for an hour in the mash. Perhaps, this is why it contributes a "burnt" flavor in my beer?

 

[kmarkstevens]

I am trying out the Samuel smith Nut Brown Ale in cans (so it at least isn't skunked). Anyone know the grain bill? It has what I think of as the brown malt taste that I don't like. It's not overpowering but is not to my taste.

 

[cire]

No brown malt according to Graham Wheeler and Roger Protz in Brew Classic European Beers at Home.

For 5 US gallons.
7.05 lb pale malt
14.5 oz amber malt
15.0 oz crystal malt
2.0 oz chocolate malt
154F for 90 mins

Boil 90 mins
2.6 oz Fuggles at start
0.6 oz Goldings last 15 mins.

Open fermented in Yorkshire Square.

 

[shoreman]

Here’s a Holiday Best Bitter that I just put on my newly acquired Angram beer engine. Tasty.

Maris Otter
Crystal 20
Turbinado sugar

Admiral, EKG hops
Dry hopped with EKG

Conan yeast - 3.6% ABV

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Looks like you've got a nice bit of condition on it, as it should do, despite what people say about bitter being flat.

My only comment would be that at 3.6% you're firmly in standard bitter territory, Bests are always above 4% or so (and benefit considerably from that extra body IMHO). And it looks a touch orange, I don't know if that's the photo or the turbinado.

But looking good - all you need now is a beer-stained carpet, a half-cut pensioner in the corner with his dog, and a slight whiff from antique toilets for the full pub experience!

 

[LeeH]

That’s stained and sticky carpets.

 

[Miraculix]

But looking good - all you need now is a beer-stained carpet, a half-cut pensioner in the corner with his dog, and a slight whiff from antique toilets for the full pub experience!

Hahaha, I can confirm that! Especially the slight wiff seems to be mandatory for every pub in the UK.

 

[shoreman]

Haha, right? Although when I was setting all my connections up with the engine I spilled quite a bit of beer on my basement floor, so there’s a good cellar aroma.

The malt bill was based off a recipe in a book I have for Ushers of Throwbridge Best Bitter but I undershot the OG. The beer is more blonde in person.

I primed it to 1.5volumes in a cubitainer and it worked great. Right in line with carbonation I experienced when drinking real ales on a few trips to England.

Still looking to dial it in a bit, but definitely happy with the setup.

 

[Hanglow]

I'd be very pleased with that.

The Ushers brewery is now in North Korea of all places

 

[shoreman]

The Ushers brewery is now in North Korea of all places

Wow! I was reading they went out of business and Thomas Hardy’s was Brewing it, but North Korea?

 

[Hanglow]

I mean the physical brewery, rather than the brand

Yeah the current ushers beers will still be brewed in the uk. Ive never tried them

There was also an Ushers in Edinburgh, Ive tried brewing a couple of their historic beers. They stood out as they used european malts and hops as well as domestic ones

 

[lowtones84]

What are some of peoples' favorite yeasts for porters and stouts? I know there are recommendations scattered throughout the thread, but most of them are for bitters and milds. My go-to english yeast is wlp007, but I'd like to try something else. We just brewed a hoppy brown ale with it and I don't feel like it supported the malt and hops.

I'm planning a modern interpretation of an export porter. Looking through Ron Pattinson's "Let's Brew!" book, most of this type are 100-120 ibus. I'm looking to use the same amount of hops, but push most of them to late in the process in the face of typical convention for dark beers. Grist is Maris, Amber, Brown, touch of Black, invert #3.

Thanks all!

 

[ba-brewer]

I see Wyeast 1318 used in quite few of Ron Patterson's recipes. Works good in NEIPAs for hop flavor/aroma.

Wyeast 1469 is a good yeast for getting the malt to come through.

 

[kmarkstevens]

Irish stout yeasts for stouts are good.

Nottingham is a beast, works well with stouts, and flocculates out like nobodies business. Notty and WLP085 are leading candidates for my "if you could only have one yeast on a desert island" choice.

in my humble opinion, 1318 London III is lackluster. I made multiple batches and yeast offs and it produces dull beer for me. And there is a whole 'nother debate on whether it is the Boddington's yeast (unlikely).

West Yorkshire WY1469 (NOT to be confused with the Yorkshire Square version) has produced good results in my porters.

@lowtones84 Are you in the Seattle area? Machine House Brewing does English ales and they are mighty tasty. I LOVE their version of the Dark Mild. I was there yesterday for a quick pint and chatted with the brewer/owner. Anyhoo, Ron Pattinson is planning a trip in the May timeframe, and will likely do one of his things at Machine House.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

WLP028 Edinburgh is always a safe bet, I know several people who use it as a house yeast.

If you're planning to get a bit silly on the ABV front then WLP540 Abbey IV is a useful one - despite the name it's a British yeast that's adapted to higher ABVs, allegedly at Rochefort.

WLP041 is just a nice alround strain, again a British yeast that's gone overseas.

 

[lowtones84]

Nottingham is a beast, works well with stouts, and flocculates out like nobodies business. Notty and WLP085 are leading candidates for my "if you could only have one yeast on a desert island" choice.

West Yorkshire WY1469 (NOT to be confused with the Yorkshire Square version) has produced good results in my porters.
@lowtones84 Are you in the Seattle area? Machine House Brewing does English ales and they are mighty tasty. I LOVE their version of the Dark Mild. I was there yesterday for a quick pint and chatted with the brewer/owner. Anyhoo, Ron Pattinson is planning a trip in the May timeframe, and will likely do one of his things at Machine House.

I've taken an aversion to Nottingham. I got a dead pack of yeast early in my homebrewing career and swore off of it, but I understand that their quality control has gotten much better and I should probably give it a shot sometime. I also just enjoy making starters with liquid yeast. I'll take a look at 1469. I am all the way on the other coast, unfortunately, so no Seattle for me!

WLP028 Edinburgh is always a safe bet, I know several people who use it as a house yeast.

If you're planning to get a bit silly on the ABV front then WLP540 Abbey IV is a useful one - despite the name it's a British yeast that's adapted to higher ABVs, allegedly at Rochefort.

WLP041 is just a nice alround strain, again a British yeast that's gone overseas.

Nah, I'm only going up to about 6.5-7% so I don't think I need a yeast with particularly high alcohol tolerance. I'll research 028 and 041.

Thanks, folks!

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Consider WLP540 anyway, if a relative works for Rochefort then that's not a bad track record for dark beers....

 

[balrog]

I like WY1469 for ambers, and WY1450 actually on Yoopers Oatmeal stout.

 

[ba-brewer]

About a year ago I could not seem to get much esters from my bitters ales. With the help of the folks on this thread I have been able to pick up more esters and some other subtle flavors in my bitters lately.

The first thing that I started doing has been to keep the grain bill simple, no more than 10% light or medium crystal. I was already using only about 10% crystal in the past but some of it was darker crystal. I made a few with a little black malt to add color but I think with the other changes the roast flavor was pretty noticeable so have been not worrying much about the color now.

The second thing was only doing a initial bitter charge and a small 10min hop addition. In the past my bitterness was spit closer to 50/50 between the initial charge and the late additions. With the added hops and the idea of British beers needing to be drank fresh I think the hops were covering up other flavors.

The last thing I have been doing is allowing my beers to condition a good month or more beyond carbonating. This is probably a personal problem but without the additional conditioning time I can not pick up on the esters, I get malt mostly and some hops. Not sure if it is the longer conditioning time or less late hops but I seem to pick up more diacetyl than I did in the past too. My beers are conditioned and served at 45F which is bit colder than traditional cellar temps, not sure if that speeds up or slows down the conditioning process.

I try to have a variety of beers on tap and will sometime start with a different style then switch to the lower ABV bitters as the night goes on. This has happened a few time where I was drinking a west coast style IPA and when switched to the bitters and was very surprised at the flavor and aroma of the bitters. Normally would of think that the overly hopped IPA would of made the flavors of the bitters seem more muted but I think it might have actually enhanced them. Those simple bitters really held their own.

Thanks everybody for your help.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Gratuitous handpull porn - some of the _156_ handpulls on just *one bar* at the Manchester beer festival....