English Ales - What's your favorite recipe?
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schmurf
Well-Known Member
IDNLBM either
I'm not a fan of brown malt in larger quantities in anything drank fresh. About 5-7% in a brown ale or mild is nice but more than that it needs a few months of maturing time to mellow a bit.
Curious what you use instead of it in Stouts/Porters inspired by late 1800's/early 1900's ones, when the brown malt likely was fairly comparable to the one offered by Fawcett, Crisp etc today?
Colindo
Well-Known Member
I have not had issues with Brown Malt from Warminster and Crisp so far. The maximum I used was 10% and the beer had a nice mixture of bready and light chocolate aromas, even fresh.
Well you've all got me worried about the historical brown stout 60% 2 row and 40% brown malt I brewed on the 9th December.
Been in the keg since the new year.
Not tasted it yet.
Been in the keg since the new year.
Not tasted it yet.
![Craft A Brew - Safale S-04 Dry Yeast - Fermentis - English Ale Dry Yeast - For English and American Ales and Hard Apple Ciders - Ingredients for Home Brewing - Beer Making Supplies - [1 Pack]](https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41fVGNh6JfL._SL500_.jpg)
I find Crisp's a little harsh in larger amounts if the beer is young.
My base porter and stout is inspired by 1890's Truman partigyled ones.
13% brown and 7% black malt, 12% dark invert sugar.
Base is Crisp Vienna and 6% medium crystal to simulate Chevalier but without having to waste it on a roast heavy beer where all the more subtle qualities of it will be lost.
My base porter and stout is inspired by 1890's Truman partigyled ones.
13% brown and 7% black malt, 12% dark invert sugar.
Base is Crisp Vienna and 6% medium crystal to simulate Chevalier but without having to waste it on a roast heavy beer where all the more subtle qualities of it will be lost.
I think it'll be fine, with a proper aging time.
The only brown malt I've not liked is Simpson's, it is about double the EBC of all the other English maltsters and way too intense.
Weird since I prefer Simpson over Crisp for every other malt...
I think the one I tried was actually Simpsons.
It can be great for very patient people, i.e. not for homebrewers.
I used it in an undrinkable stronger bitter. After half a year it was quite enjoyable.
I put some brown in my brown ales as well. I have been playing with the ratio of it, pale chocolate, and chocolate (including trying without the brown altogether), and I prefer it in there. But I'm talking 3-4% of the grain bill with it. I get a bit of a light roast coffee / slightly burnt toast kind of thing from it. For me having a little in there is better than none at all. But certainly keep it low and only in a few styles.
I won't use Simpson's malt in anything "historical". Not because I don't like it ... quite the contrary. But they get up to things that I'm sure aren't compatible with "historical".
Fuller's (London) "1845" (my favorite commercial bottled beer) must have Simpson's Amber Malt to get its flavour. Simpson's "Imperial Malt" (45EBC and diastatic!) has flavour with fairly obvious echos of their "Amber Malt". And, as @Erik the Anglophile says, their "Brown Malt" is quite out-of-step with what other maltsters produce. Simpson are up to something!
My next two beers will use Brown Malt. Both skimmed off the historical records by Ron Pattinson and reproduced in his "Stout!" book: Whitbread's 1940 Extra Stout and Barclay Perkin's 1941 Imperial (at OG 1.058, hardly that!) Brown Stout: Very similar Stouts, but Barclay Perkin were messing with roast barley and crystal malt. Wartime recipes but the strength is remarkably kept quite high.
Brown Malt-wise I won't be doing anything controversial. By mid-20th C. all "historical" UK Brown Malt was extinct, so I'll use something like Crisp's Brown Malt as-is. Early 20th C. the situation was quite different, and earlier still, what was then called "Brown Malt" would be diastatic. What I'll do for back then isn't that controversial, you can see the well-known historical group "Durden Park Beer Club" doing the same >here< but less "controlled" ... yet it was way back in 1975 (clue: they are emulating something originally made from 100% historical diastatic brown malt in that recipe).
To keep things (un-necessarily) on-subject, here's something related I had a stash of over Xmas, and is an English Stout and one of my favourites (if a bit expensive, and calling it "Imperial" is a bit of a stretch of the imagination):
Fuller's (London) "1845" (my favorite commercial bottled beer) must have Simpson's Amber Malt to get its flavour. Simpson's "Imperial Malt" (45EBC and diastatic!) has flavour with fairly obvious echos of their "Amber Malt". And, as @Erik the Anglophile says, their "Brown Malt" is quite out-of-step with what other maltsters produce. Simpson are up to something!
My next two beers will use Brown Malt. Both skimmed off the historical records by Ron Pattinson and reproduced in his "Stout!" book: Whitbread's 1940 Extra Stout and Barclay Perkin's 1941 Imperial (at OG 1.058, hardly that!) Brown Stout: Very similar Stouts, but Barclay Perkin were messing with roast barley and crystal malt. Wartime recipes but the strength is remarkably kept quite high.
Brown Malt-wise I won't be doing anything controversial. By mid-20th C. all "historical" UK Brown Malt was extinct, so I'll use something like Crisp's Brown Malt as-is. Early 20th C. the situation was quite different, and earlier still, what was then called "Brown Malt" would be diastatic. What I'll do for back then isn't that controversial, you can see the well-known historical group "Durden Park Beer Club" doing the same >here< but less "controlled" ... yet it was way back in 1975 (clue: they are emulating something originally made from 100% historical diastatic brown malt in that recipe).
To keep things (un-necessarily) on-subject, here's something related I had a stash of over Xmas, and is an English Stout and one of my favourites (if a bit expensive, and calling it "Imperial" is a bit of a stretch of the imagination):
I'm being ganged up on. I feel a tantrum coming on
.
IWWDASSIS.I'm being ganged up on. I feel a tantrum coming on
beren
Well-Known Member
It’s the quintessential acronym from the quintessential homebrew book. Get used to that one lol.
With things getting a bit snippy, let a dumb Yank's bumbling efforts become a target for your ridicule and derision.
Last year, I decided to revamp my ancient roster of UK-style ales (I say "UK-style" because I'm writing from the US, often working with dubious examples and suspicious sources). Frankly, my old recipes were a mess, each having been independently evolved from my earliest efforts as a brewer, roughly thirty years ago. Individually, they were fine, but they didn't make much sense as a whole and it was unwieldy stocking individual ingredients for each recipe. I was spending more time tracking down specific ingredients than I was swilling UK-style ales.
It was time for a change.
The new roster of UK-style ales was designed to keep things as effortless as possible and my kegs filled with UK-style ale on a whim. The new roster revolves around a core of reliably obtained ingredients: the Fullers and Yorkshire strains, Warminister Otter (it's a nice malt that is $40 cheaper per sack than Crisp or Simpsons), homemade invert, Crisp Amber and Brown, and Simpsons C-malts. I'll use Crisp and Simpsons chocolate and black barley/malt interchangeably. After decades of use, I can't claim a preference between the two and if one is not available the other typically is in stock. EKGs, Fuggles, Target (I like Target, okay?), and (naturally) Bramling Cross are my core hops.
I present, for your mockery, scorn, and contumely, the two most mature recipes in my new UK-style lineup. Both have been brewed three times and are drinking in line with how I envisioned them. As a clueless Yank, I'm blithely pleased with both recipes--but gnawed by doubt as I stare into my pint and think "Yeah, that's pretty good."
So much of brewing is in the actual brewing, rather than recipe construction, but I would sincerely appreciate any feedback you're able to tease out from the following recipes.
The first is an ordinary bitter with a bit too much hops on the first pint, but they're still present on the second and third pint. Gordon Strong wouldn't approve, but I like it this way. Also, I'm a dumb Yank so Freedom, hostile driving habits, and hops is always the right answer.
Batch Size: 6 US gal
OG: 1.040 (suck it, BJCP)
FG: 1.009
IBU: IBU 30
85% Warminster Otter
12% Invert #2
3% Medium Crystal--sadly, it is better with the C-malt
1/2oz Midnight Wheat for color
20 IBU of Bramling Cross @ 60
10 IBU of EKG @ 20
1oz of EKG @ KO
.5oz of EKG as keg hops (suck it, CAMRA)
Mash at 148F/65C for 40min, recirculate at 158F/70C for 20min, fly sparge for maximum efficiency because UK malt is suddenly stupidly expensive for a variety of complex reasons.
Fullers or Yorkshire strains, pitch at 63F/17C, let rise to 68F/20C and hold until half gravity, let rise to 72F/22C for the second half of the gravity
The second recipe is a brown porter. It's been twenty years since I've been in the UK and I didn't see a single porter on my many trips, much less a brown one. I don't have the foggiest idea about what a brown porter actually is. I have no justification for calling this a brown porter other than the fact that I read Ron Pattinson a bit too seriously, I've got a thing for brown malt, a suspicion that Gordon Strong pulled this style out of his ass, and I need a name for a dry brown beer that doesn't drink anything like a northern brown ale. I'm very fond of this beer and a keg is lucky to survive a month.
Batch size: 6 US gal
OG: 1.045
FG: 1.010
IBU: 27
73% Warminster Otter
11% Brown Malt
10% Invert #3
4% Chocolate Malt
2% Amber Malt (I tried deleting this, but it actually makes a difference)
1oz Midnight Wheat (for color)
17 IBU Bramling Cross @ 60
10 IBU Bramling Cross @ 20
1oz Fuggles at KO
(.25oz of Bramling Cross keg hops are pleasant, but get in the way of the malt)
Mash at 148F/65C for 40min, recirculate at 158F/70C for 20min, fly sparge for maximum efficiency because UK malt is suddenly stupidly expensive for a complex variety of totally unforeseeable reasons.
Fullers or Yorkshire strains, pitch at 63F/17C, let rise to 68F/20C and hold until half gravity, let rise to 72F/22C for the second half of the gravity
Your jeers, mockery, unpolite gestures, scathing reprimands, and death threats are justified. Honestly, I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm doing my best.
Brew them taste them and let us know.
I'd give both of them a go.
I'd give both of them a go.
Oh, they've been brewed...
That's good, happy with them?
They're solid ales. I've been very serious about UK-style ales for decades, but very much aware that they're made in the US, by a US brewer that is painfully aware that he cannot really understand UK ales anymore than a herpetologist can understand what it's like to be a frog. I can attempt to comprehend it from the outside, but I'll never be able to understand it from the inside.
Introspection, being what it is, always gnaws at the back of one's mind and wonders, "Certainly nice, but is this really any good? Would this pass muster in the UK?"
Not that it matters--study as I might, I'll never brew a proper UK pint. Like I said in my original post, things were getting a bit snippy, so I figured I'd offer a couple of recipes for a bit of lighthearted ridicule.
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Both look like fairly typical ales that could very well have been made by a commercial brewer.
Bitters, especially Northern English/Yorkshire ones and from the Kent and Cornwall area can often actually be quite "hoppy" flavour wise. Definitely notable if you get somewhat fresh commercial examples, hogsback T.E.A and TT boltmaker are good examples.
Keg hopping is something I don't think CAMRA would dissaprove of, other than it's not a cask... Many bitters are cask hopped. I've tried keg hopping but it just clogged my beer post...
I think this whole "UK beer should have barely any flavour/aroma hops" sentiment is a USian invention, possibly stemming from many drinkers mostly getting samples of it abused and past their prime available for purchase back in the day and then it just kinda stuck.
Bitters, especially Northern English/Yorkshire ones and from the Kent and Cornwall area can often actually be quite "hoppy" flavour wise. Definitely notable if you get somewhat fresh commercial examples, hogsback T.E.A and TT boltmaker are good examples.
Keg hopping is something I don't think CAMRA would dissaprove of, other than it's not a cask... Many bitters are cask hopped. I've tried keg hopping but it just clogged my beer post...
I think this whole "UK beer should have barely any flavour/aroma hops" sentiment is a USian invention, possibly stemming from many drinkers mostly getting samples of it abused and past their prime available for purchase back in the day and then it just kinda stuck.
As a UK Homebrewer and a drinker of UK beer for 50 years you underestimate yourself. Those ingredients and recipes are first class. Those beers would go down well in Britain.
And I'll strongly agree. To reach perfection, do you keep and serve the beer at cellar temperature with plans to serve it through a beer engine?
Why "sadly better with c-malt"?With things getting a bit snippy, let a dumb Yank's bumbling efforts become a target for your ridicule and derision.
Last year, I decided to revamp my ancient roster of UK-style ales (I say "UK-style" because I'm writing from the US, often working with dubious examples and suspicious sources). Frankly, my old recipes were a mess, each having been independently evolved from my earliest efforts as a brewer, roughly thirty years ago. Individually, they were fine, but they didn't make much sense as a whole and it was unwieldy stocking individual ingredients for each recipe. I was spending more time tracking down specific ingredients than I was swilling UK-style ales.
It was time for a change.
The new roster of UK-style ales was designed to keep things as effortless as possible and my kegs filled with UK-style ale on a whim. The new roster revolves around a core of reliably obtained ingredients: the Fullers and Yorkshire strains, Warminister Otter (it's a nice malt that is $40 cheaper per sack than Crisp or Simpsons), homemade invert, Crisp Amber and Brown, and Simpsons C-malts. I'll use Crisp and Simpsons chocolate and black barley/malt interchangeably. After decades of use, I can't claim a preference between the two and if one is not available the other typically is in stock. EKGs, Fuggles, Target (I like Target, okay?), and (naturally) Bramling Cross are my core hops.
I present, for your mockery, scorn, and contumely, the two most mature recipes in my new UK-style lineup. Both have been brewed three times and are drinking in line with how I envisioned them. As a clueless Yank, I'm blithely pleased with both recipes--but gnawed by doubt as I stare into my pint and think "Yeah, that's pretty good."
So much of brewing is in the actual brewing, rather than recipe construction, but I would sincerely appreciate any feedback you're able to tease out from the following recipes.
The first is an ordinary bitter with a bit too much hops on the first pint, but they're still present on the second and third pint. Gordon Strong wouldn't approve, but I like it this way. Also, I'm a dumb Yank so Freedom, hostile driving habits, and hops is always the right answer.
Batch Size: 6 US gal
OG: 1.040 (suck it, BJCP)
FG: 1.009
IBU: IBU 30
85% Warminster Otter
12% Invert #2
3% Medium Crystal--sadly, it is better with the C-malt
1/2oz Midnight Wheat for color
20 IBU of Bramling Cross @ 60
10 IBU of EKG @ 20
1oz of EKG @ KO
.5oz of EKG as keg hops (suck it, CAMRA)
Mash at 148F/65C for 40min, recirculate at 158F/70C for 20min, fly sparge for maximum efficiency because UK malt is suddenly stupidly expensive for a variety of complex reasons.
Fullers or Yorkshire strains, pitch at 63F/17C, let rise to 68F/20C and hold until half gravity, let rise to 72F/22C for the second half of the gravity
The second recipe is a brown porter. It's been twenty years since I've been in the UK and I didn't see a single porter on my many trips, much less a brown one. I don't have the foggiest idea about what a brown porter actually is. I have no justification for calling this a brown porter other than the fact that I read Ron Pattinson a bit too seriously, I've got a thing for brown malt, a suspicion that Gordon Strong pulled this style out of his ass, and I need a name for a dry brown beer that doesn't drink anything like a northern brown ale. I'm very fond of this beer and a keg is lucky to survive a month.
Batch size: 6 US gal
OG: 1.045
FG: 1.010
IBU: 27
73% Warminster Otter
11% Brown Malt
10% Invert #3
4% Chocolate Malt
2% Amber Malt (I tried deleting this, but it actually makes a difference)
1oz Midnight Wheat (for color)
17 IBU Bramling Cross @ 60
10 IBU Bramling Cross @ 20
1oz Fuggles at KO
(.25oz of Bramling Cross keg hops are pleasant, but get in the way of the malt)
Mash at 148F/65C for 40min, recirculate at 158F/70C for 20min, fly sparge for maximum efficiency because UK malt is suddenly stupidly expensive for a complex variety of totally unforeseeable reasons.
Fullers or Yorkshire strains, pitch at 63F/17C, let rise to 68F/20C and hold until half gravity, let rise to 72F/22C for the second half of the gravity
Your jeers, mockery, unpolite gestures, scathing reprimands, and death threats are justified. Honestly, I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm doing my best.
Crystal malt is there for a reason. It's just that some people tend to overdo it big time. But 3% of the grist is far away from overdoing! Up to 5%. Is almost always perfectly fine and up to 10% can also be fine if the rest of the recipe is adapted to the higher amount, more invert for example and some mashing schedule changes maybe.
The upper recipe looks perfectly fine to me. I cannot judge the lower one, because I never brewed a bitter with these malts, but I can imagine that they should play together fairly well.
Colindo
Well-Known Member
@Bramling Cross I agree with the others. The beers look great and will probably also taste great, if you know what you're doing.
There are two tiny details that I give you as feedback: 1st: if you call the second beer "London Porter" you imply that Brown Malt is used and don't need to worry about anachronistic naming. 2nd: I would not ferment both yeasts the same way. You can bump the temperature up by 1 or 2 degrees for the West Yorkshire Ale strain, since it is much more forgiving regarding fusels than Fuller's. For Fuller's I would actually not go above 20°C at all, while I regularly use West Yorkshire at 22°C.
There are two tiny details that I give you as feedback: 1st: if you call the second beer "London Porter" you imply that Brown Malt is used and don't need to worry about anachronistic naming. 2nd: I would not ferment both yeasts the same way. You can bump the temperature up by 1 or 2 degrees for the West Yorkshire Ale strain, since it is much more forgiving regarding fusels than Fuller's. For Fuller's I would actually not go above 20°C at all, while I regularly use West Yorkshire at 22°C.
Well, the second one is not an ale, but a beer
Colindo
Well-Known Member
I'm brewing a clone of Young's Winter Warmer today, even though I never managed to find it on tap in the UK, since I heard so much good stuff about it.
The Real Ale Almanac states most of the ingredients, but it needs a proprietary sugar called Young's Special Mixture.
Maris Otter 73%
Crystal 150 7%
YSM 20%
Bittered with Fuggle to 30 IBU, 90 min boil
EKG 0,75g/ at 10 min
Yeast: WY1768 at 20°C.
A former Young's employee told me that YSM was a mixture of glucose syrup, cane molasses and caramel with 80% extract and 220 EBC. So I'm using 14% Dr. Oetker Liquid Glucose and 6% Lyle's Black Treacle to make up the 20% of sugar that I need. I already noticed that Black Treacle has a far less harsh aftertaste than German molasses, so I'm really looking forward to this beer!
The Real Ale Almanac states most of the ingredients, but it needs a proprietary sugar called Young's Special Mixture.
Maris Otter 73%
Crystal 150 7%
YSM 20%
Bittered with Fuggle to 30 IBU, 90 min boil
EKG 0,75g/ at 10 min
Yeast: WY1768 at 20°C.
A former Young's employee told me that YSM was a mixture of glucose syrup, cane molasses and caramel with 80% extract and 220 EBC. So I'm using 14% Dr. Oetker Liquid Glucose and 6% Lyle's Black Treacle to make up the 20% of sugar that I need. I already noticed that Black Treacle has a far less harsh aftertaste than German molasses, so I'm really looking forward to this beer!
Well, if we are to be that picky, they both are beers since I see hops used exclusively for bittering and flavour in both...Well, the second one is not an ale, but a beer
I'd probably just use invert 3, at least the way I make it. It probably won't be exactly the same but "close enough" for homebrewing...
Colindo
Well-Known Member
Correct. Also, nowadays beer is used as the overall term in the UK. Not sure where I read it, otherwise I'd link a source...Well, if we are to be that picky, they both are beers since I see hops used exclusively for bittering and flavour in both...
Doesn't really matter how you make it, but the final gravity would be far too low, except if you mashed at 72°C or something like that. Winter Warmer is a full beer with an OG of 1.055, but only 5% ABV, so less attenuation that what you'd usually get. Liquid Glucose and other glucose syrups with 40 DE provide the amount of dextrins needed.
How is Bauck molasses? I only ever used Rapunzel and that one has a lingering aftertaste that is really unpleasant. Lyle's Black Treacle does not have that.
