English Ales - What's your favorite recipe?

[Erik the Anglophile]

Both look like fairly typical ales that could very well have been made by a commercial brewer.

Bitters, especially Northern English/Yorkshire ones and from the Kent and Cornwall area can often actually be quite "hoppy" flavour wise. Definitely notable if you get somewhat fresh commercial examples, hogsback T.E.A and TT boltmaker are good examples.
Keg hopping is something I don't think CAMRA would dissaprove of, other than it's not a cask... Many bitters are cask hopped. I've tried keg hopping but it just clogged my beer post...

I think this whole "UK beer should have barely any flavour/aroma hops" sentiment is a USian invention, possibly stemming from many drinkers mostly getting samples of it abused and past their prime available for purchase back in the day and then it just kinda stuck.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

They're solid ales. I've been very serious about UK-style ales for decades, but very much aware that they're made in the US, by a US brewer that is painfully aware that he cannot really understand UK ales anymore than a herpetologist can understand what it's like to be a frog. I can attempt to comprehend it from the outside, but I'll never be able to understand it from the inside.

Introspection, being what it is, always gnaws at the back of one's mind and wonders, "Certainly nice, but is this really any good? Would this pass muster in the UK?"

Not that it matters--study as I might, I'll never brew a proper UK pint. Like I said in my original post, things were getting a bit snippy, so I figured I'd offer a couple of recipes for a bit of lighthearted ridicule.

As a UK Homebrewer and a drinker of UK beer for 50 years you underestimate yourself. Those ingredients and recipes are first class. Those beers would go down well in Britain.

 

[cire]

As a UK Homebrewer and a drinker of UK beer for 50 years you underestimate yourself. Those ingredients and recipes are first class. Those beers would go down well in Britain.

And I'll strongly agree. To reach perfection, do you keep and serve the beer at cellar temperature with plans to serve it through a beer engine?

 

[Miraculix]

With things getting a bit snippy, let a dumb Yank's bumbling efforts become a target for your ridicule and derision.

Last year, I decided to revamp my ancient roster of UK-style ales (I say "UK-style" because I'm writing from the US, often working with dubious examples and suspicious sources). Frankly, my old recipes were a mess, each having been independently evolved from my earliest efforts as a brewer, roughly thirty years ago. Individually, they were fine, but they didn't make much sense as a whole and it was unwieldy stocking individual ingredients for each recipe. I was spending more time tracking down specific ingredients than I was swilling UK-style ales.

It was time for a change.

The new roster of UK-style ales was designed to keep things as effortless as possible and my kegs filled with UK-style ale on a whim. The new roster revolves around a core of reliably obtained ingredients: the Fullers and Yorkshire strains, Warminister Otter (it's a nice malt that is $40 cheaper per sack than Crisp or Simpsons), homemade invert, Crisp Amber and Brown, and Simpsons C-malts. I'll use Crisp and Simpsons chocolate and black barley/malt interchangeably. After decades of use, I can't claim a preference between the two and if one is not available the other typically is in stock. EKGs, Fuggles, Target (I like Target, okay?), and (naturally) Bramling Cross are my core hops.

I present, for your mockery, scorn, and contumely, the two most mature recipes in my new UK-style lineup. Both have been brewed three times and are drinking in line with how I envisioned them. As a clueless Yank, I'm blithely pleased with both recipes--but gnawed by doubt as I stare into my pint and think "Yeah, that's pretty good."

So much of brewing is in the actual brewing, rather than recipe construction, but I would sincerely appreciate any feedback you're able to tease out from the following recipes.

The first is an ordinary bitter with a bit too much hops on the first pint, but they're still present on the second and third pint. Gordon Strong wouldn't approve, but I like it this way. Also, I'm a dumb Yank so Freedom, hostile driving habits, and hops is always the right answer.

Batch Size: 6 US gal
OG: 1.040 (suck it, BJCP)
FG: 1.009
IBU: IBU 30

85% Warminster Otter
12% Invert #2
3% Medium Crystal--sadly, it is better with the C-malt
1/2oz Midnight Wheat for color
20 IBU of Bramling Cross @ 60
10 IBU of EKG @ 20
1oz of EKG @ KO
.5oz of EKG as keg hops (suck it, CAMRA)

Mash at 148F/65C for 40min, recirculate at 158F/70C for 20min, fly sparge for maximum efficiency because UK malt is suddenly stupidly expensive for a variety of complex reasons.

Fullers or Yorkshire strains, pitch at 63F/17C, let rise to 68F/20C and hold until half gravity, let rise to 72F/22C for the second half of the gravity

The second recipe is a brown porter. It's been twenty years since I've been in the UK and I didn't see a single porter on my many trips, much less a brown one. I don't have the foggiest idea about what a brown porter actually is. I have no justification for calling this a brown porter other than the fact that I read Ron Pattinson a bit too seriously, I've got a thing for brown malt, a suspicion that Gordon Strong pulled this style out of his ass, and I need a name for a dry brown beer that doesn't drink anything like a northern brown ale. I'm very fond of this beer and a keg is lucky to survive a month.

Batch size: 6 US gal
OG: 1.045
FG: 1.010
IBU: 27

73% Warminster Otter
11% Brown Malt
10% Invert #3
4% Chocolate Malt
2% Amber Malt (I tried deleting this, but it actually makes a difference)
1oz Midnight Wheat (for color)

17 IBU Bramling Cross @ 60
10 IBU Bramling Cross @ 20
1oz Fuggles at KO
(.25oz of Bramling Cross keg hops are pleasant, but get in the way of the malt)

Mash at 148F/65C for 40min, recirculate at 158F/70C for 20min, fly sparge for maximum efficiency because UK malt is suddenly stupidly expensive for a complex variety of totally unforeseeable reasons.

Fullers or Yorkshire strains, pitch at 63F/17C, let rise to 68F/20C and hold until half gravity, let rise to 72F/22C for the second half of the gravity

Your jeers, mockery, unpolite gestures, scathing reprimands, and death threats are justified. Honestly, I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm doing my best.

Why "sadly better with c-malt"?

Crystal malt is there for a reason. It's just that some people tend to overdo it big time. But 3% of the grist is far away from overdoing! Up to 5%. Is almost always perfectly fine and up to 10% can also be fine if the rest of the recipe is adapted to the higher amount, more invert for example and some mashing schedule changes maybe.

The upper recipe looks perfectly fine to me. I cannot judge the lower one, because I never brewed a bitter with these malts, but I can imagine that they should play together fairly well.

 

[Colindo]

@Bramling Cross I agree with the others. The beers look great and will probably also taste great, if you know what you're doing.
There are two tiny details that I give you as feedback: 1st: if you call the second beer "London Porter" you imply that Brown Malt is used and don't need to worry about anachronistic naming. 2nd: I would not ferment both yeasts the same way. You can bump the temperature up by 1 or 2 degrees for the West Yorkshire Ale strain, since it is much more forgiving regarding fusels than Fuller's. For Fuller's I would actually not go above 20°C at all, while I regularly use West Yorkshire at 22°C.

Both look like fairly typical ales that could very well have been made by a commercial brewer.

Well, the second one is not an ale, but a beer

 

[Colindo]

I'm brewing a clone of Young's Winter Warmer today, even though I never managed to find it on tap in the UK, since I heard so much good stuff about it.

The Real Ale Almanac states most of the ingredients, but it needs a proprietary sugar called Young's Special Mixture.
Maris Otter 73%
Crystal 150 7%
YSM 20%

Bittered with Fuggle to 30 IBU, 90 min boil
EKG 0,75g/ at 10 min

Yeast: WY1768 at 20°C.

A former Young's employee told me that YSM was a mixture of glucose syrup, cane molasses and caramel with 80% extract and 220 EBC. So I'm using 14% Dr. Oetker Liquid Glucose and 6% Lyle's Black Treacle to make up the 20% of sugar that I need. I already noticed that Black Treacle has a far less harsh aftertaste than German molasses, so I'm really looking forward to this beer!

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Well, the second one is not an ale, but a beer

Well, if we are to be that picky, they both are beers since I see hops used exclusively for bittering and flavour in both...

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I'm brewing a clone of Young's Winter Warmer today, even though I never managed to find it on tap in the UK, since I heard so much good stuff about it.

The Real Ale Almanac states most of the ingredients, but it needs a proprietary sugar called Young's Special Mixture.
Maris Otter 73%
Crystal 150 7%
YSM 20%

Bittered with Fuggle to 30 IBU, 90 min boil
EKG 0,75g/ at 10 min

Yeast: WY1768 at 20°C.

A former Young's employee told me that YSM was a mixture of glucose syrup, cane molasses and caramel with 80% extract and 220 EBC. So I'm using 14% Dr. Oetker Liquid Glucose and 6% Lyle's Black Treacle to make up the 20% of sugar that I need. I already noticed that Black Treacle has a far less harsh aftertaste than German molasses, so I'm really looking forward to this beer!

I'd probably just use invert 3, at least the way I make it. It probably won't be exactly the same but "close enough" for homebrewing...

 

[Miraculix]

Speaking of German molasses... I'm going to make a micro batch of molasses beer, only Bauck sugar beet molasses plus hops and water. Always wanted to try this.

 

[Colindo]

Well, if we are to be that picky, they both are beers since I see hops used exclusively for bittering and flavour in both...

Correct. Also, nowadays beer is used as the overall term in the UK. Not sure where I read it, otherwise I'd link a source...

I'd probably just use invert 3, at least the way I make it. It probably won't be exactly the same but "close enough" for homebrewing...

Doesn't really matter how you make it, but the final gravity would be far too low, except if you mashed at 72°C or something like that. Winter Warmer is a full beer with an OG of 1.055, but only 5% ABV, so less attenuation that what you'd usually get. Liquid Glucose and other glucose syrups with 40 DE provide the amount of dextrins needed.

Speaking of German molasses... I'm going to make a micro batch of molasses beer, only Bauck sugar cane molasses plus hops and water. Always wanted to try this.

How is Bauck molasses? I only ever used Rapunzel and that one has a lingering aftertaste that is really unpleasant. Lyle's Black Treacle does not have that.

 

[Miraculix]

Bauck is nice and caramelly. Not like the others, it has caramel upfront and nothing unpleasant in the back.

I don't know the Rapunzel one though. I know Grafschafter Goldsaft, that one is pretty much like the Bauck one minus the caramel.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

With things getting a bit snippy, let a dumb Yank's bumbling efforts become a target for your ridicule and derision.

Last year, I decided to revamp my ancient roster of UK-style ales (I say "UK-style" because I'm writing from the US, often working with dubious examples and suspicious sources). Frankly, my old recipes were a mess, each having been independently evolved from my earliest efforts as a brewer, roughly thirty years ago. Individually, they were fine, but they didn't make much sense as a whole and it was unwieldy stocking individual ingredients for each recipe. I was spending more time tracking down specific ingredients than I was swilling UK-style ales.

It was time for a change.

The new roster of UK-style ales was designed to keep things as effortless as possible and my kegs filled with UK-style ale on a whim. The new roster revolves around a core of reliably obtained ingredients: the Fullers and Yorkshire strains, Warminister Otter (it's a nice malt that is $40 cheaper per sack than Crisp or Simpsons), homemade invert, Crisp Amber and Brown, and Simpsons C-malts. I'll use Crisp and Simpsons chocolate and black barley/malt interchangeably. After decades of use, I can't claim a preference between the two and if one is not available the other typically is in stock. EKGs, Fuggles, Target (I like Target, okay?), and (naturally) Bramling Cross are my core hops.

I present, for your mockery, scorn, and contumely, the two most mature recipes in my new UK-style lineup. Both have been brewed three times and are drinking in line with how I envisioned them. As a clueless Yank, I'm blithely pleased with both recipes--but gnawed by doubt as I stare into my pint and think "Yeah, that's pretty good."

So much of brewing is in the actual brewing, rather than recipe construction, but I would sincerely appreciate any feedback you're able to tease out from the following recipes.

The first is an ordinary bitter with a bit too much hops on the first pint, but they're still present on the second and third pint. Gordon Strong wouldn't approve, but I like it this way. Also, I'm a dumb Yank so Freedom, hostile driving habits, and hops is always the right answer.

Batch Size: 6 US gal
OG: 1.040 (suck it, BJCP)
FG: 1.009
IBU: IBU 30

85% Warminster Otter
12% Invert #2
3% Medium Crystal--sadly, it is better with the C-malt
1/2oz Midnight Wheat for color
20 IBU of Bramling Cross @ 60
10 IBU of EKG @ 20
1oz of EKG @ KO
.5oz of EKG as keg hops (suck it, CAMRA)

Mash at 148F/65C for 40min, recirculate at 158F/70C for 20min, fly sparge for maximum efficiency because UK malt is suddenly stupidly expensive for a variety of complex reasons.

Fullers or Yorkshire strains, pitch at 63F/17C, let rise to 68F/20C and hold until half gravity, let rise to 72F/22C for the second half of the gravity

The second recipe is a brown porter. It's been twenty years since I've been in the UK and I didn't see a single porter on my many trips, much less a brown one. I don't have the foggiest idea about what a brown porter actually is. I have no justification for calling this a brown porter other than the fact that I read Ron Pattinson a bit too seriously, I've got a thing for brown malt, a suspicion that Gordon Strong pulled this style out of his ass, and I need a name for a dry brown beer that doesn't drink anything like a northern brown ale. I'm very fond of this beer and a keg is lucky to survive a month.

Batch size: 6 US gal
OG: 1.045
FG: 1.010
IBU: 27

73% Warminster Otter
11% Brown Malt
10% Invert #3
4% Chocolate Malt
2% Amber Malt (I tried deleting this, but it actually makes a difference)
1oz Midnight Wheat (for color)

17 IBU Bramling Cross @ 60
10 IBU Bramling Cross @ 20
1oz Fuggles at KO
(.25oz of Bramling Cross keg hops are pleasant, but get in the way of the malt)

Mash at 148F/65C for 40min, recirculate at 158F/70C for 20min, fly sparge for maximum efficiency because UK malt is suddenly stupidly expensive for a complex variety of totally unforeseeable reasons.

Fullers or Yorkshire strains, pitch at 63F/17C, let rise to 68F/20C and hold until half gravity, let rise to 72F/22C for the second half of the gravity

Your jeers, mockery, unpolite gestures, scathing reprimands, and death threats are justified. Honestly, I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm doing my best.

You're bitter looks wonderful, to me. My only question is on the final hop addition, and estimated IBUs. You've got 30 IBUs, but then the 1 oz. of EKG at knockout. Not sure how long, if any, you're doing a hop stand there, but depending how long and what temp, these will add IBUs. In my case my typical whirlpool/HS additions are a 30 minute steep, and if so, I'm getting 8.2 additional IBUs, for a total of 38.2 IBUs.

Did you intend for higher than 30 IBUs overall?

 

[Colindo]

Bauck is nice and caramelly.

I just checked. Seems to be a sugar beet syrup? That would explain things, since those are pretty much not salty at all (sugar cane molasses is insanely salty) and probably processed to make it milder. Might be the right thing to add to a brew, but I haven't gone down that lane yet.

My only question is on the final hop addition, and estimated IBUs

'Post-isomerisation time', as it is called in Germany, is not taken into account by most British and American recipes. Good IBU calculators do it, however.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

I just checked. Seems to be a sugar beet syrup? That would explain things, since those are pretty much not salty at all (sugar cane molasses is insanely salty) and probably processed to make it milder. Might be the right thing to add to a brew, but I haven't gone down that lane yet.

'Post-isomerisation time', as it is called in Germany, is not taken into account by most British and American recipes. Good IBU calculators do it, however.

OK, I'd wondered. If going with knockout and doing the whole 30 minutes before cooling, I'm getting a total of 38 IBUs. If I wait until dropping the temp to 165 and then standing for 30 minutes, I'm only getting 32.3 IBUs.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

I just checked. Seems to be a sugar beet syrup? That would explain things, since those are pretty much not salty at all (sugar cane molasses is insanely salty) and probably processed to make it milder. Might be the right thing to add to a brew, but I haven't gone down that lane yet.

I bake German breads throughout the week, and use Zuckerrübensirup all the time. The brand I use is actually Grafschafter Goldsaft. If this is the same as the Bauck syrup, cool to know. I will say, however, I more often use non-diastatic barley malt syrup in bread baking (in baking. Imagine there's basically no difference from LME?). I'm guessing the beet sugar syrup has a higher fermentability, for brewing purposes?

 

[Miraculix]

I just checked. Seems to be a sugar beet syrup? That would explain things, since those are pretty much not salty at all (sugar cane molasses is insanely salty) and probably processed to make it milder. Might be the right thing to add to a brew, but I haven't gone down that lane yet.

'Post-isomerisation time', as it is called in Germany, is not taken into account by most British and American recipes. Good IBU calculators do it, however.

I just saw that I wrote "sugar cane". I meant to write "sugar beet", I'm going to correct that.

Sugar cane molasses and sugar beet molasses are miles apart, flavour wise.

Common saying has it that beet molasses should be inferior for beer production. That's what I want to see, if that's true or not.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

I just saw that I wrote "sugar cane". I meant to write "sugar beet", I'm going to correct that.

Sugar cane molasses and sugar beet molasses are miles apart, flavour wise.

Common saying has it that beet molasses should be inferior for beer production. That's what I want to see, if that's true or not.

OK. And yes, agreed, sugar beet and sugar cane syrups/molasses are wildly different. The beet doesn't have any of that bitterness or sulfury character.

Interesting on the "rep" you mention of the beet for brewing - in some circle, it has the same rep in baking. Seen to be a bit one-note, "inharmonious" v. the inactive barley malt syrup. More just "sugar," without some of the other layers.

You might find this interesting. A skilled Russian baker and teacher's comments:

Your syrup looks dark, Paul. There are two types of Zuckerrübensirup in Germany, a golden one, similar to golden syrup from sugar cane, and a brown syrup which is similar to dark treacle. It might be good for some darker breads (dark rye flour, whole rye flour) but not for medium rye or light rye flour breads.

It is not "made from" beet sugar, but from beet juice which is then used to extract sugar and the byproduct, what's left, is this syrup or 'extract'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_syrup

I found that pale or colorless malt syrups and colorless inverted sugar syrup or golden syrup (blend of molasses with inverted sugar syrup) are best, but if I have to use dark molasses, I use fancy molasses in baking and cooking, not black treacle, regardless whether they are from beets or from sugar cane.

Blackstrap molasses (black treacle) have very little sugar and a lot of bitter taste, they are the lowest grade of molasses. They are high in vitamins and minerals and used as yeast food in baking or sourdough maintenance, not for the taste of bread. Fancy molasses is the highest grade of molasses available: fancy molasses is pure sugarcane juice that has been condensed, inverted and purified. It is fragrant, tasty, and not bitter at all and doesn't give bread crumb ugly hue.

 

[Miraculix]

OK. And yes, agreed, sugar beet and sugar cane syrups/molasses are wildly different. The beet doesn't have any of that bitterness or sulfury character.

Interesting on the "rep" you mention of the beet for brewing - in some circle, it has the same rep in baking. Seen to be a bit one-note, "inharmonious" v. the inactive barley malt syrup. More just "sugar," without some of the other layers.

You might find this interesting. A skilled Russian baker and teacher's comments:

The golden syrup I know here in Germany (Grafschafter heller Sirup) has nothing to do with sugar beet molasses. It is basically just glucose syrup with a bit of invert sugar syrup. It is a very good substitute for invert sugar no. 1, if you ask me. But I cannot confirm the connection the baker draws from it to sugar cane molasses.

 

[Peebee]

Oh no! The sugar wars again.

There will be no winners. There will be no losers. Each country; forget countries ... each culture, has its idea what the different elements are. Let's take a look at some of these "skilled Russian baker and teacher's" comments:

"Blackstrap molasses (black treacle) have very little sugar and a lot of bitter taste, they are the lowest grade of molasses.". No it's not, black treacle is completely different to Blackstrap Molasses? Blackstrap the lowest grade of molasses ... rubbish, it's the highest grade! There's more: "Golden syrup (blend of molasses with inverted sugar syrup)"; yeah, okay, but it wasn't always like that (from Tate & Lyle and Eastwicks) ... etc., etc.

Says I: Someone from the UK. Except it's possibly all correct from the person who's writing it, and the persons he's writing it for (who I don't think are Americans either?).

And so the arguments can go on-and-on. No winners, no losers, just grudges and mistrusts.

 

[Colindo]

I think the issue is that Lyle's Black Treacle is a blend of molasses and their golden syrup, while colloquially black treacle used to be the same as molasses or blackstrap molasses. Just last October I was told by a Scottish lady that black treacle is the Scottisch word for molasses.

As soon as product names are mixed with colloquial wording, you are doomed.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

The golden syrup I know here in Germany (Grafschafter heller Sirup) has nothing to do with sugar beet molasses. It is basically just glucose syrup with a bit of invert sugar syrup. It is a very good substitute for invert sugar no. 1, if you ask me. But I cannot confirm the connection the baker draws from it to sugar cane molasses.

She could be wrong. While she was a serious fount of information, she was also quite strident in her views, and, in particular, held brewers in slight regard when it came to understanding baking science (long story).

Edit: I believe she is. Doing a quick look for "Heller und dunkler Zuckerrübensirup" I came to Graftschaftler's site for their "Heller-Sirup" and as you say, it doesn't appear to be sugar-beet syrup, at least without being inverted first - not sure if they use cane or beet for the invert basis, though I imagine it's the former?

Unser Heller Sirup besteht hauptsächlich aus Invertzucker (Mischung aus Frucht- und Traubenzucker) und Saccharose. Durch das Herstellungsverfahren erfährt er eine leichte Karamellisierung und bekommt dadurch ein feines, neutral süßes Aroma.

 

[Peebee]

I was told by a Scottish lady that black treacle is the Scottish word for molasses

Did she tell you what a horny gollach is too?

I did look up "horny gollach" on Google to check the spelling. I can't believe what I found! Had no idea Wikipedia got up to that sort of thing:

https://sco.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horny-gollach

How's that for "colloquial"!

 

[Miraculix]

Did she tell you what a horny gollach is too?

I did look up "horny gollach" on Google to check the spelling. I can't believe what I found! Had no idea Wikipedia got up to that sort of thing:

https://sco.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horny-gollach

How's that for "colloquial"!

Brilliant

They are called Ohrenkneifer (earpincher) in German.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Brilliant

They are called Ohrenkneifer (earpincher) in German.

Those things used to freak me out as a kid, when not many creepie/crawlies did. No idea why, unless I feared those pinchers would latch on to my brain or something.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

We call em "Tvestjärtar" (twintails) here.
Usually used in stories to scare kids that they will crawl in their ears and burrow...

 

[balrog]

Did she tell you what a horny gollach is too?

I did look up "horny gollach" on Google to check the spelling. I can't believe what I found! Had no idea Wikipedia got up to that sort of thing:

https://sco.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horny-gollach

How's that for "colloquial"!

What in the mother loving almighty is this pseudo-gaelic/english stuff I cannot read???!!

 

[balrog]

We call em "Tvestjärtar" (twintails) here.
Usually used in stories to scare kids that they will crawl in their ears and burrow...

Nah, the ones in Wrath of Kahn were entirely different

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Star Trek. Wrath of Khan. Just sayin'

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Nah, the ones in Wrath of Kahn were entirely different
View attachment 841838

HAHAHAHAHA....crossed in the mail.....

 

[Cheshire Cat]

Earwigs not Eariwigs in UK
Earwigs make up the insect order Dermaptera. With about 2,000 species[1] in 12 families, they are one of the smaller insect orders. Earwigs have characteristic cerci, a pair of forcep-like pincers on their abdomen, and membranous wings folded underneath short, rarely used forewings, hence the scientific order name, "skin wings". Some groups are tiny parasites on mammals and lack the typical pincers. Earwigs are found on all continents except Antarctica.

 

[Peebee]

Earwigs not Eariwigs in UK ...

Hang-on. Scotland is in the UK. But, maybe not for much longer?

If they go, will the UK lose its "Brewdog"?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

What in the mother loving almighty is this pseudo-gaelic/english stuff I cannot read???!!

Nothing to do with Gaelic, it's Scots, the traditional language of lowland Scotland. The language of Burns and my ancestors :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scots_language

The clue is in the "sco" in the Wiki domain.

 

[Peebee]

Nothing to do with Gaelic ...

Undoubtably true.

It's a pidgin- (pigeon, pig, ...) English, to be heard spoken by Rab C. Nesbitt, et-al. Burns?!

No-way is this carryon going to make this as respectable as an indigenous language any more than my Amber Valley twang, Liverpudlian (Scouse) or Geordie (Newcastle). But (sorry) attempting to make it a respectable language is pretty hilarious!

 

[Peebee]

Crikey. It gets worse! After @Northern_Brewer's intervention I dug deeper, coming up with https://www.scots-online.org/dictionary/english_scots.php

But I can use this to get this topic back on track.

I was told by a Scottish lady that black treacle is the Scottish word for molasses.

Wikipedia don't seem to support the southern Welsh version in the same way? ("Wenglish").

 

[Cheshire Cat]

Hang-on. Scotland is in the UK. But, maybe not for much longer?

If they go, will the UK lose its "Brewdog"?

 

[Peebee]

So. Back to "brown malt" ("broun maut"!). Apologies for a fairly lengthy essay, I use these "essays" as reminders of where I'm up to.

I attempted to express historical brown malt evolution as a graph, encompassing the changes as "pale malt" became the dominant "base malt" for brewing beer and of brown malt's attempt to "adapt" to make up for its lower percentage in the mash. Originally, brown malt was just the "default" malt; there was no emphasis on colour, so-called "brown" malt was only a consequence of making malt as quickly and as cheaply as possible. The big posh country houses could have spent more time and money making malt and achieve a better end result. Less charring, less smoke and a less darkly coloured beer.

Black malt was "invented" in 1817 (credited to a Daniel Wheeler using rotating drum roasting machine apparently inspired by the "coffee bean roasters" that had already been around in since the 17th C.). The diagram stretchs from the 17th C. through to the 20th (for UK brown malt). The vertical axis ("y") suggests colour with the line thickness suggesting relative "quantity" used; there is no scale:

It shows diastatic brown malt becoming extinct before mid 19th C. followed by non-diastatic brown malt somewhere about the 1920s. This lets me assume brown malt in the 1940s is 100% rotating cylinder kilned ("modern" brown malt, although modern techniques may be changed in recent years with - e.g. - vertical "fluidised" cylinderical kilns that are not rotating). Diastatic amber malt makes an appearance (a lighter variation of the brown malt) for a couple of hundred years before becoming extinct too.

Modern amber and brown malt appeared soon after black malt (as did crystal malts), created using the same rotating cylinder kilns. I suspect (not read anything supporting or to the contrary) that away from the UK the older techniques of creating "brown malt" (open air fires and the like) continued.

The old malting methods died out assisted by the regularity of fires in the malthouses. This could have been a desire to pack more and more flavour into the brown malt so less and less of it need be used. The job was always a fire risk, increasing the heat only egaggerated the likelihood of fire.


This covers and condenses most of what I've manged to collect about brown malt over the years. You can get Ron Pattinson's take on the subject here: https://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2008/08/brown-malt.html. But remember that's a 15 year old article and he's written much more since. In particular that smoke for flavour was being added back to brown malt late in the 19th C. and he's some more about "blown malt" (popped) in late 19th/20th C.

 

[McMullan]

So. Back to "brown malt" ("broun maut"!). Apologies for a fairly lengthy essay, I use these "essays" as reminders of where I'm up to.

I attempted to express historical brown malt evolution as a graph, encompassing the changes as "pale malt" became the dominant "base malt" for brewing beer and of brown malt's attempt to "adapt" to make up for its lower percentage in the mash. Originally, brown malt was just the "default" malt; there was no emphasis on colour, so-called "brown" malt was only a consequence of making malt as quickly and as cheaply as possible. The big posh country houses could have spent more time and money making malt and achieve a better end result. Less charring, less smoke and a less darkly coloured beer.

Black malt was "invented" in 1817 (credited to a Daniel Wheeler using rotating drum roasting machine apparently inspired by the "coffee bean roasters" that had already been around in since the 17th C.). The diagram stretchs from the 17th C. through to the 20th (for UK brown malt). The vertical axis ("y") suggests colour with the line thickness suggesting relative "quantity" used; there is no scale:

View attachment 841892

It shows diastatic brown malt becoming extinct before mid 19th C. followed by non-diastatic brown malt somewhere about the 1920s. This lets me assume brown malt in the 1940s is 100% rotating cylinder kilned ("modern" brown malt, although modern techniques may be changed in recent years with - e.g. - vertical "fluidised" cylinderical kilns that are not rotating). Diastatic amber malt makes an appearance (a lighter variation of the brown malt) for a couple of hundred years before becoming extinct too.

Modern amber and brown malt appeared soon after black malt (as did crystal malts), created using the same rotating cylinder kilns. I suspect (not read anything supporting or to the contrary) that away from the UK the older techniques of creating "brown malt" (open air fires and the like) continued.

The old malting methods died out assisted by the regularity of fires in the malthouses. This could have been a desire to pack more and more flavour into the brown malt so less and less of it need be used. The job was always a fire risk, increasing the heat only egaggerated the likelihood of fire.


This covers and condenses most of what I've manged to collect about brown malt over the years. You can get Ron Pattinson's take on the subject here: https://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2008/08/brown-malt.html. But remember that's a 15 year old article and he's written much more since. In particular that smoke for flavour was being added back to brown malt late in the 19th C. and he's some more about "blown malt" (popped) in late 19th/20th C.

Which data is the graph based on? Most likely biased in some way. I’d argue pale malt is the simplest and most cost-effective to make therefore the ‘base’. Experimenting with kilning and roasting to develop complimentary flavours ‘beyond the pale’ across cultural endeavours is pretty standard. It’s considered ‘progress’. Usually it is, historically. If it survives time. But what’s the point being made about brown malt? Why do I need to care, assuming I do?

 

[Colindo]

@Peebee Well said. Many of the things you state are well-documented, such as the change from all-brown-malt to a base of pale malt after the first hydrometer measurements of wort in 1981 by Richardson. Though I have somewhere in my memory the year 1956 as the last production of diastatic brown malt. Maybe I should check if I find Ron's post that gives that date.

Do you have a date for when the transition to non-diastatic brown malt happened for the majority of brewers? In this post it sounds as if by 1880 they were still using a brown malt that might have been diastatic https://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2022/05/last-bit-on-malt-1880-1914.html

Do you have a source for the statement that smoke flavour was added back to brown malt in the 19th c? If it comes from the link I just posted, I would say they just made the production cheaper, but not necessarily to get any smoky flavours. It was just not noticeable with the small percentage of brown malt being used.

 

[Peebee]

Which data is the graph based on? ...

What data could there be? That diagram (I was careful not to call it a graph) is only a summary of texts I've seen. It starts 1600 (for the 17th C.) where I'm also careful to only label the item on the illustration "malt" as the concept of different colours would be meaningless. It would have all been "diastatic", not that they knew what an enzyme was, but if it was "cooked" wrong, it wouldn't make beer (or ale as would be the choice UK drink at that earliest time in the diagram ... 1600).

They would have understood "malt" could be made paler or darker: The "toffs" in the big houses would have been using straw to dry or bake their malt a lighter colour and considerably less smoky-rank that the masses got - but they didn't have to make so much and had loads of money to chuck at it. Places like Derby were beginning to produce mass market straw-cooked paler malt (even using coke ... from sea coal ... by 1650) but it would have still been too expensive for the masses.

I'd agree there would have been experimentation with different coloured malts, but it could only have been small scale. In large scale production the main concern would be not igniting the whole lot: They were still having trouble with that 300 years later (1900) which was putting an end to "historic" brown malt (the brewers had kilns they could better control by then ... since 1817 ... and could easily produce "modern" brown malt).

Historical brown malt would have had qualities quite different to "modern" brown malt. Diastatic for one, and no uniformity of colour (roasts). Products from "stewing" (like in crystal and Munich malts) for another. That's the target for me, emulating what past flavoured beer would have been like. An endless task for which I'm only covering a miniscule bit of. But I'm not making historic (18-19th C.) beer emulations from "modern" brown malt which has little or no resemblance to "historic" brown malt. Ron Pattinson digs up loads of old recipes for attempting.

Some "progressing" wasn't "improving", like Chavallier barley": The farmers were glad of the "improvements", but many of the drinkers of beer made from it lost something.

Not much referencing here, I haven't the time, but the original work (with referencing) I was doing is >here< (Jim's in UK).

 

[McMullan]

I’m really not a fan of smoked malts, even at small quantities, so I should probably be grateful of progress. I think I’d have preferred pale beers or gin back in those days.