English Ales - What's your favorite recipe?

[duncan_disorderly]

Whoever said that Heritage Crystal comes in darker than you expect from 180 EBC was totally spot on though!

Chevallier is a lot darker than you expect.

 

[Miraculix]

And do you guys reckon I need to make a starter for the brett? Or just pitch the tube as is in the secondary?
The tube has a BBE of 14th march 2023. I probably won't make an overbuilt starter since I at the moment don't have any stuff to store the slurry in a safe way.

Afaik, it usually gets pitched directly.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

The bitter came out right on the money, volume wise and gravity wise. 1.041 vs estimated 1.040 is within acceptable margin.
I've had some issues dialing in my system since I started brewing larger batches and milling all the grain myself, but now it seems I got my mash efficiency and boil off + a reliable way to calculate the amount of sugar.

 

[DBhomebrew]

And do you guys reckon I need to make a starter for the brett? Or just pitch the tube as is in the secondary?
The tube has a BBE of 14th march 2023. I probably won't make an overbuilt starter since I at the moment don't have any stuff to store the slurry in a safe way.

Your beer in secondary will be a fairly safe place to store some brett for 6, 9, 12 months.

My understanding is brett doesn't need much in the way of pitch rate [in secondary]. Direct should be fine.

 

[faithie999]

With a 5% addition I don't think it's going to matter much but thats just my opinion not backed by anything. Do you know what the ratio is to completely neutralize it is? I've seen where some say it's 3 grams sodium bicarbonate to 1 gram of citric and also 1.3 grams sodium bicarbonate to 1 gram of citric.

Edit: scratch the 3 grams to 1 gram and let's go with the 1.3 to 1. Also I add my inverts at flameout.

I was just about to post the 1:1.3 ratio (by weight) after inquiring of the Google machine. I decided to check this ratio with my swimming pool chemistry pH test solution using RO water to dissolve the acid and bicarb. on hand I have crystalline (pure) citric acid and powdered bicarbonate of soda. the 1:1.3 ratio comes from the fact that it takes 3 moles of bicarb to neutralize 1 mole of citric acid, and when accounting for the respective molecular weights, the weight ratio is 1:1.3 acid to bicarb.

The pH test shows that the 1:1.3 is still acidic, and it takes closer to 1:2 to bring the pH up to neutral.

this is probably important for making invert sugar for cooking or eating purposes, but as others have said, the invert we make for brewing gets added to a mildly acidic wort, so it neutralizing it isn't necessary.

 

[DBhomebrew]

My understanding is brett doesn't need much in the way of pitch rate [in secondary]. Direct should be fine.

These results challenge the notion that "stressing" Brettanomyces by underpitching leads to more or different levels of flavor-active compounds. The results also demonstrate that exceedingly small amounts of Brett cells are needed to quickly cause changes in a beer. The low end of the pitch rates tested represents approximately 1/5 of a White Labs vial pitched into a 5 gallon batch.
https://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Brettanomyces_secondary_fermentation_experiment

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Direct pitch should be fine then.

 

[IslandLizard]

And do you guys reckon I need to make a starter for the brett?

Absolutely! I've said it before, make a starter, for a variety of reasons.

The tube has a BBE of 14th march 2023.

Best-by date for liquid yeast is typically 6 months after packaging, which was 9/14/22 in your case.
That means that yeast is 3 months old. And has traveled under unknown conditions. That's the main reason to make starter.

And you want to save some out, right? I'm willing to bet that tube ran you about $15 equivalent to get to you. Better stretch its usage somewhat.

You're also pitching it into a high gravity Stock Ale. If you co-pitch with the sacch strain the Brett may grow some, establishing herself. If you pitch later for a 2nd fermentation, she's faced with 9-11% ABV beer. She needs healthy cells, and more of them.

There are other ways/timings to pitch a secondary yeast, but they all need healthy cells, and plenty of them.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

That's true, might make a small starter, like a 1L one, just to make sure the yeast has vitality, and gets to work as quick as possible to eat up and push out any oxygen picked up during transfer/ in the small inevitable head space.
I just got the crazy idea to do a sorta kinda solera thingy with the Imperial Brown Stout, since I have two small PET carboys, I could brew the stout in january sometime and just draw ~1.5dl of the Stock Ale and pour into the other carboy and rack the stout on that, it's likely gonna be full of brett by then.
@DBhomebrew
@IslandLizard

 

[Northern_Brewer]

You're also pitching it into a high gravity Stock Ale. If you co-pitch with the sacch strain the Brett may grow some, establishing herself. If you pitch later for a 2nd fermentation, she's faced with 9-11% ABV beer. She needs healthy cells, and more of them.

There are other ways/timings to pitch a secondary yeast, but they all need healthy cells, and plenty of them.

Remember the context - this is the English ales thread, he's trying to replicate a traditional stock ale. Where there was no "pitching" of a secondary yeast at all, the entire effect came from small numbers of stressed cells clinging for dear life to the sides of a barrel.

USians may prefer a Brett-heavy approach, but this Brit would rather see moderation. It'll be fine without a starter.

 

[cire]

Thanks for the information @cire . Going off what I thought the ratio was I would guess and this is a guess that my pH went to around 6 after adding the baking soda and I definitely left a little bit behind in the vessel that was holding the measured baking soda so I'm betting around .1 grams or so was left.

I used distilled water when making my inverts so no additional buffering capacity with the water.

No need to be overly concerned about minor variations, buffering of the wort will overpower small . However it is worth noting that while distilled water has little buffering power, my treated water to eliminate alkalinity will be 400 times more acidic at pH 4.4 than distilled water at pH 7. With a calibrated pH meter you can determine how much of any acid is required to lower your chosen water to a particular pH, and how much alkalinity or base is needed to return to a particular level.

While on the subject of sugar, might I advocate the following method making caramel, which is not available in some parts.

https://www.deliaonline.com/cookery-school/techniques/how-to-make-caramel

 

[hout17]

No need to be overly concerned about minor variations, buffering of the wort will overpower small . However it is worth noting that while distilled water has little buffering power, my treated water to eliminate alkalinity will be 400 times more acidic at pH 4.4 than distilled water at pH 7. With a calibrated pH meter you can determine how much of any acid is required to lower your chosen water to a particular pH, and how much alkalinity or base is needed to return to a particular level.

While on the subject of sugar, might I advocate the following method making caramel, which is not available in some parts.

https://www.deliaonline.com/cookery-school/techniques/how-to-make-caramel

Thanks @cire looks like I'll have to break out my pH meter to confirm. I do know that distilled as soon as it's exposed to air drops to a pH of around 5ish as it absorbs CO2 from the environment.

Thanks for the link I'll check it out!

 

[cire]

Indeed it will and does, but the effect is transient and the CO2 is driven off when water is heated for mashing or making invert sugar.

The caramel video is worth a look and consideration for providing body and color to a beer. It can be made darker than advised in the sequence by heating for longer, but there is an upper limit.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

It's worth pointing out that the "dry" method of making caramel in that Delia link is quicker and less like to result in crystallisation - but the downside is that it is quicker, and so it's much easier to burn it if you don't watch it like a hawk.

The "wet" method, where you dissolve it in a bit of water first, takes longer but is a bit more forgiving if you're doing other things at the same time.

 

[marc1]

Recipe:

12.5 Gallons post-boil
OG - 1.049
FG (estimated) - 1.015
ABV - 4.6%
IBU - 41

Overall Water (from RO):
Chloride - 91
Sulfate - 200
Calcium - 135

Crisp Chevallier 100%

Mashed at 151 for 1hr
9 gallon mash
88% lactic acid for mash pH adjustment
Measured mash pH at end of mash: 5.45

5 gallon sparge

1 hour boil
2.2mL 88% lactic acid to boil
post-boil pH - 5.24

1oz EKG 60
3oz Willamette 60
3oz EKG 15

Whirlfloc 10

Ferment with London Fog @68F

Kegged it two days ago. Not clear at all, still tastes a bit yeasty. Based on this so far, I would not use London Fog again for any British ales. I was hoping it could be dual use (British and NEIPA), but 002 is far more enjoyable.

I had 3oz of EKG at 15 for 12.5 gallons post boil, and it tastes too hoppy. This yeast may also accentuate hops more than my usual 002.

I'll update in a couple few weeks once it conditions some more.

Update:

It's decently drinkable now, but not nearly as enjoyable as others I have made. It still hasn't cleared. The malt flavor isn't anything special, either. Golden Promise with some other grains for flavor is far superior. Also, I went a bit higher on minerals than I have before, and it tastes a bit too minerally for me.

So lessons learned for me:
Don't use London Fog for British beer.
Chevalier isn't worth the $$$.
Dial back the minerals a bit.

 

[Miraculix]

Update:

It's decently drinkable now, but not nearly as enjoyable as others I have made. It still hasn't cleared. The malt flavor isn't anything special, either. Golden Promise with some other grains for flavor is far superior. Also, I went a bit higher on minerals than I have before, and it tastes a bit too minerally for me.

So lessons learned for me:
Don't use London Fog for British beer.
Chevalier isn't worth the $$$.
Dial back the minerals a bit.

The yeast is just not good. And drowning it in sulfate doesn't help either, especially if the Ibus are also too high. Wouldn't blame the malt for a faulty recipe. A bitter is about balance, there is just too much of everything in your recipe.

 

[marc1]

The yeast is just not good. And drowning it in sulfate doesn't help either, especially if the Ibus are also too high. Wouldn't blame the malt for a faulty recipe. A bitter is about balance, there is just too much of everything in your recipe.

100% agree that the yeast was not good for this beer, and was the single largest issue with it. Pushing the minerals up there was a bit too much, I'm not going to do that anymore with these styles.

The bitterness isn't a problem, though. I like bitters that I make with 40-45 IBUs (milds I keep under 20), and this doesn't taste overly bitter. It could probably use a little more bitterness for my tastes, which might be a yeast effect.

The flavor of the malt isn't bad, it's just nothing special to justify the price to me compared to Golden Promise.

I'll go back to 002 for the next one, or see if one of the local shops can get Pub ordered in.

 

[Miraculix]

100% agree that the yeast was not good for this beer, and was the single largest issue with it. Pushing the minerals up there was a bit too much, I'm not going to do that anymore with these styles.

The bitterness isn't a problem, though. I like bitters that I make with 40-45 IBUs (milds I keep under 20), and this doesn't taste overly bitter. It could probably use a little more bitterness for my tastes, which might be a yeast effect.

The flavor of the malt isn't bad, it's just nothing special to justify the price to me compared to Golden Promise.

I'll go back to 002 for the next one, or see if one of the local shops can get Pub ordered in.

You also rushed it, didn't you? This malt doesn't come into its beauty before at least one and a half months or better two in the bottle/keg. You can drink it before and it will taste ok to good before aging it a bit, but its real benefits start to appear after some aging. I've seen that myself multiple times. And regarding bitterness, again, it's about balance with these UK ales. Don't get me wrong, you can obviously brew what you want, but then it's no wonder that the malt doesn't work as well as it does within the specific frame of a classic UK bitter. Which means abv of about 4 to 4.3% and ibus around 30 +-5. I'm sure that there are some northern examples with higher ibus than that, but it's not a typical thing.

The most important thing is aging it appropriately. Not too long, but some time really is necessary. This brings out the desired flavour. Then, abv not above 4.3% plus ibus around 30.

 

[Miraculix]

100% agree that the yeast was not good for this beer, and was the single largest issue with it. Pushing the minerals up there was a bit too much, I'm not going to do that anymore with these styles.

The bitterness isn't a problem, though. I like bitters that I make with 40-45 IBUs (milds I keep under 20), and this doesn't taste overly bitter. It could probably use a little more bitterness for my tastes, which might be a yeast effect.

The flavor of the malt isn't bad, it's just nothing special to justify the price to me compared to Golden Promise.

I'll go back to 002 for the next one, or see if one of the local shops can get Pub ordered in.

Oh, and one thing I forgot. Chevallier has a higher protein content than modern base malt. The problem is that the protein content determines the ibu utilisation rate. The more proteins in solution, the lower the ibu utilisation rate. This means that you will effectively get less ibus from the same amount of hops with chevallier than with a modern base malt. What you are tasting when you say you are missing some ibus is exactly that effect.

 

[marc1]

You also rushed it, didn't you? This malt doesn't come into its beauty before at least one and a half months or better two in the bottle/keg. You can drink it before and it will taste ok to good before aging it a bit, but its real benefits start to appear after some aging. I've seen that myself multiple times. And regarding bitterness, again, it's about balance with these UK ales. Don't get me wrong, you can obviously brew what you want, but then it's no wonder that the malt doesn't work as well as it does within the specific frame of a classic UK bitter. Which means abv of about 4 to 4.3% and ibus around 30 +-5. I'm sure that there are some northern examples with higher ibus than that, but it's not a typical thing.

The most important thing is aging it appropriately. Not too long, but some time really is necessary. This brings out the desired flavour. Then, abv not above 4.3% plus ibus around 30.

It was kegged at the end of September, so it's had 2 and a half months. It's an enjoyable beer now, while it was not shortly after kegging.

Actual OG to FG was 1.051 to 1.017, which is 4.4% according to BrewTarget.

I can taste the malt in the beer, and Chevallier is OK but not worth the extra money to me, especially at the non-full sack prices of $3/pound. (For the record, I'm also not huge on Maris Otter, I much prefer Golden Promise).

Thanks for all the feedback, I have learned a lot from this brew.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I just got the crazy idea to do a sorta kinda solera thingy with the Imperial Brown Stout, since I have two small PET carboys, I could brew the stout in january sometime and just draw ~1.5dl of the Stock Ale and pour into the other carboy and rack the stout on that, it's likely gonna be full of brett by then.

Anybody got any objections to my idea to use a little of the stock ale to "inocculate" the imperial stout? The stout will likely be brewed some time around the shift between january/february.

 

[DBhomebrew]

Anybody got any objections to my idea to use a little of the stock ale to "inocculate" the imperial stout?

Have you read Cornell's recent post about Gale's Prize Old Ale?

The “solera” system used in brewing POA, where a little of each batch is held back to inoculate the following brew as it ferments, ensuring exactly the same micro-organisms get to work on the beer every time, and guaranteeing that the rich fruity flavours, underpinned with a touch of refreshing sourness, are reproduced with every brewing, is an ancient technique that modern craft brewers are only now re-learning as they attempt to make the sort of world-class beer that POA already is.

https://zythophile.co.uk/2022/11/22/rush-out-now-and-buy-as-much-gales-prize-old-ale-as-you-can/

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Maybe...
But it sure seems like a convenient way to get brett in to the second brew.

 

[DBhomebrew]

Maybe...
But it sure seems like a convenient way to get brett in to the second brew.

That's exactly what I'm saying. It's easy, convenient, and with historical precedent!

 

[kmarkstevens]

Ridgeway Brewing Oxfordshire bottle condidtioned yeast - worth trying to reculture?

So, I was in the World Market getting stocking stuffers today, and they had several Ridgeway Brewing beers including bad elf and santa's butt. Bad Elf winter ale is only 4.5% octane and was on the bottom shelf in the back with the least amount of light. So, I grabbed a bottle, will probably have it on xmas and of course will try to recondition the yeast just 'cause.

A really old Ridgeway Bad King John Yeast - Home Brew Forum had this to say about the Bad King John yeast: That's brewed for them at Hepworth, so is probably the historic Henley of Thames/Brakspear yeast, good stuff, also available as Wyeast 1275 "Thames Valley Ale": https://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_yeaststrai ... cfm?ID=138

thoughts?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

A really old Ridgeway Bad King John Yeast - Home Brew Forum had this to say about the Bad King John yeast: That's brewed for them at Hepworth, so is probably the historic Henley of Thames/Brakspear yeast, good stuff, also available as Wyeast 1275 "Thames Valley Ale": https://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_yeaststrai ... cfm?ID=138

No "probably" about it, I have it on good authority that Ridgeway's current production yeast originally came from Brakspear, it was set up by a former Brakspear brewer who also eg took the contract for Coniston Bluebird bottles with him. However it has been repitched for 20+ years so is arguably now the "Ridgeway/Hepworth" yeast!

And 1275 is not "the Brakspear yeast" - it is a single strain that may have originated from Brakspear, but that doesn't make it "the Brakspear yeast", you need the full multistrain. According to an old Wyeast catalogy that Bierhaus found, "1882 Thames Valley II - Slightly fruitier and more malty on the palate than 1275. Well balanced with a clean, dry finish. The source of 1275 and 1882 uses them together to produce a highly complex flavor profile and spicy character." so combining 1275 and 1882 would get you closer - but you're better with dregs.

One thing to mention is that one reason for the drop system used by Brakspear and others is that their yeast needs plenty of oxygen, although I don't know how that might have changed at Hepworths.

 

[Miraculix]

No "probably" about it, I have it on good authority that Ridgeway's current production yeast originally came from Brakspear, it was set up by a former Brakspear brewer who also eg took the contract for Coniston Bluebird bottles with him. However it has been repitched for 20+ years so is arguably now the "Ridgeway/Hepworth" yeast!

And 1275 is not "the Brakspear yeast" - it is a single strain that may have originated from Brakspear, but that doesn't make it "the Brakspear yeast", you need the full multistrain. According to an old Wyeast catalogy that Bierhaus found, "1882 Thames Valley II - Slightly fruitier and more malty on the palate than 1275. Well balanced with a clean, dry finish. The source of 1275 and 1882 uses them together to produce a highly complex flavor profile and spicy character." so combining 1275 and 1882 would get you closer - but you're better with dregs.

One thing to mention is that one reason for the drop system used by Brakspear and others is that their yeast needs plenty of oxygen, although I don't know how that might have changed at Hepworths.

Brakspear bitter (now apparently called "gravity") was my most beloved low og bitter readily available at sainsburie's during my UK times. I miss it a lot.

 

[shoreman]

Cheers and Happy Holidays! Here’s a snap of my Xmas beer based off of Ringwood Old Thumper recipe in CAMRA’s Brew Recipe book by Graham Wheeler. I haven’t had much of a chance to brew much this past year, so nice to have a brew for the holidays. I bottle conditioned in 22oz.

Marris Otter, wheat, crystal 77, chocolate.

Challenger & EKG hops

Verdant yeast. 5%abv

Finished nice and dry as I like it - 1.010

 

[eshea3]

Ready to uncap this beauty on Boxing Day

 

[DuncB]

Ridgeway Brewing Oxfordshire bottle condidtioned yeast - worth trying to reculture?

So, I was in the World Market getting stocking stuffers today, and they had several Ridgeway Brewing beers including bad elf and santa's butt. Bad Elf winter ale is only 4.5% octane and was on the bottom shelf in the back with the least amount of light. So, I grabbed a bottle, will probably have it on xmas and of course will try to recondition the yeast just 'cause.

A really old Ridgeway Bad King John Yeast - Home Brew Forum had this to say about the Bad King John yeast: That's brewed for them at Hepworth, so is probably the historic Henley of Thames/Brakspear yeast, good stuff, also available as Wyeast 1275 "Thames Valley Ale": https://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_yeaststrai ... cfm?ID=138

thoughts?

I'm hopefully going on a Hepworths brewery tour after Christmas as it's about 2 miles from where I'm staying for christmas so I'll see what I can find out.