English Ales - What's your favorite recipe?

[Erik the Anglophile]

@Erik the Anglophile , I just fly by the seat of my pants. Add what dark sugar you think and taste the resulting product. Then add as much of that product as you might think will add a flavour you like. Start with smaller additions and increase in later brews. I've not replicated Ragus block inverts, but have yet to make one that isn't used up in some proportions in subsequent brews. I'm planning a brew with 30% invert soon.

The overwhelming majority of my brews have invert addition(s). Sugar doesn't contain protein like grain, so the beer clears and matures more quickly than an equivalent strength all grain version, but has extra flavours from sugar, and less from malt, unless a small addition of darker malt (20g of chocolate?) is included.

Do you neutralise the acidity with baking soda or is it not really necessary?

 

[cire]

I use hydraulic acid and when neutralised by sodium bicarbonate produces salt and a mass of CO2, which needs caution when hot. My water supply is alkaline and minor dilution before adding to the boil is usually all I do unless storing for a prolonged period.

Ragus neutralise to pH 5 to 6, so only a little addition of a base is needed to stop excessive chemical conversion and it is possible that at ambient temperatures, any further conversion will be minimal, but I cannot claim to know that as fact.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I Guess something like 0.5g of sodium bicarbonate should be good then

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Wish me luck...

 

[cire]

I Guess something like 0.5g of sodium bicarbonate should be good then

I'm not at home presently, so don't have my figures to hand, but those figures need an explanation as I brew in a way that doesn't fit the standard approach on this forum.

I use my alkaline tapwater adjusted to the accepted end point for alkalinity, pH ~4.4. As my water varies in mineral content, by taking a TDS reading and inputting that to my own spreadsheet, the required acid addition is calculated and applied before the sugar is added to the water. At 70C a fixed addition is made per 500ml of water to get between pH 2.2 and 2.0, which from afar I think might be 0.3 ml of 6 molar HCl. If the invert is to be added to the boil, then it should be neutralised to between pH 5 and pH 6, for a typical preboil kettle pH. If the sugar is added to the FV, then I'll be looking for pH 5.2 to 3.9, depending on the stage of fermentation when added.

Of course, if the invert addition is only relatively little, none of that is important, whatever you do will not cause any reason for concern, but can be with large additions in some late 19th/early 20th century beers. Also there is option to reduce pH in the kettle if higher than desirable.

Probably 0.5 gm of sodium bicarb might be enough to stop any further reaction at ambient, but while on holiday in the Lake District, I don't know.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Cooked up a double batch yesterday, #2 and #3.
The #2 is not as dark as it looks, it's mostly because it's really cloudy and dim here today. It has a deep red dark amber colour, but a pdf I found from ragus lists #2 as 60-70 ebc so it is supposed to be kind of dark I suppose.
The #3 is pitch black as it's supposed to be, listed at 120-140 ebc so looks about right.
Used 1500g Demerara for #2 and 1275+225 light+dark muscovado for #3. Both slowly heated to about 85c before getting a small sodium bicarbonate addition and poured in jars
I think my only messup was being a bit too liberal in my use of lactic acid in #2, as the second sugar addition did not want to properly dissolve, I kept adding 80% acid for a grand total of 10ml...
For the #3 I settled on a more moderate 5.
In retrospect I remembered that Demerara can be a bit of a pain to completely dissolve, there are some small intact granules still in the bottom of the #2 jars, might have to heat it to near simmering next time to ensure complete dissolving. The #3 is completely dissolved, #2 has a very slight tartness to it, but I remember that my first invert attempt where I didn't neutralise also had that, and it aged out in a week or so.
Definitely easier than the caramellisation variety, and hopefully closer to the real deal, should have ended with syrup at about 75% sugar content and 35 PPG.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Ended up at 77% for #3 and 81% for #2.
Next time I might try heating until it just about starts simmering and then remove from heat, to maximise sugar content.

 

[McMullan]

Ended up at 77% for #3 and 81% for #2.
Next time I might try heating until it just about starts simmering and then remove from heat, to maximise sugar content.

Does it flow more easily? I've just done some countertop chemistry to determine how much citric acid gets my tap water down to pH 2.2 and how many 1/4 tsp NaHCO3 take it back up. Per litre it works out about 2 tsp citric acid then about 1/2 tsp to increase pH by about 1.0. Even at room temperature adding 1/4 tsp NaHCO3 was quite reactive. I wouldn't want to dump it straight in the hot stuff, as @cire warned.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

The syrup is quite watery, I added 0.5g NaHCO3 to both batches, I actually didn't get any violent reaction.
I wonder though if the invert sugar has some tendency to self-stabilise over time, given that the tartness tend to age out.
You think you could help me calculate how many ml 80% lactic or g citric acid is actually needed to get my 99mg/L HCO3 water (500 ml) down to about 2.2 pH?

 

[cire]

Ragus start with a 2/3rds sugar solution, acidify to pH 1.6 and hold at 70C. For #1 they add a further 5% of the same sugar to produce a syrup, then to turn that into block, seed it with 10% glucose. For #2 and #3 they do similar except the 5% addition is of darker (molasses type) sugars. Syrup is therefore about 68% and solid block 70% sugar.

I don't find Ragus inverts provide a lot of colour. A beer with about 5% #3 Ragus and a similar proportion of homemade #3 was casked in a plastic pin and a plastic barrel before coming on holiday, so when home and the beer is clear, will take a picture and post it with a list of ingredients. When we arrived I had a pint of Jennings Cumberland, it's now called Cumberland Gold (aligning with BJCP guidelines?) and I thought it tasted of Ragus #3, and is Gold in colour. A search found the following.

Here's a recipe that comes from a very good source - I haven't tried it yet though.
Maris Otter Pale Malt - 3.54Kg
Torrefied wheat - 340g
Brewers Sugar - 200g
Chocolate Malt - 20g

23l brewlength
OG = 1041

Fuggles AAU 4.7 - 25.5g - 60 mins - 15.5 IBU's
Challenger AAU 7.0 - 4.5g - 60 mins - 4 IBU's
EK Goldings AAU 4.7 - 25.5g - 60 mins - 15.5 IBU's

Total IBU's = 35.1

Simpson's Chocolate Malt is 1200 EBC and probably provides at least as much colour as does the invert.

From memory, and this could be wrong, but not by miles, I add about 0.4ml of 6 molar HCl to remove 250ppm alkalinity as CaCO3 to pH 4.4 in 500 ml of my tapwater, then another 0.3ml to pH 2.2. I've done it with citric acid crystals and remember there being a vast difference between a heaped and a level spoonful. I seem to think a level spoonful was enough to take 500ml from pH 4.4 to 2.2, but those notes are at home.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

So about 0.5 ml lactic, then another teaspoon of citric should be a decent approach by my quick guesstimate calculations?
I am really not a chemist and spent most my highschool math lessons flipping of the teacher in the rare occassion I attended... I guess I shoulda payed more attention

 

[McMullan]

You think you could help me calculate how many ml 80% lactic or g citric acid is actually needed to get my 99mg/L HCO3 water (500 ml) down to about 2.2 pH?

One of the chemists among us is better answering here. I'm not even sure if my 'out-of-date' (BB 16/03/19) citric acid compares well generally. You might need half as much if using something in date? Ditto my Dr.Oetker natron. Although it's in date and a level 1/4 tsp weighs about 2.2g. Ideally, it's determined empirically in your specific environment, to take account of the fact we're not using truly calibrated tools. Even if it's off by a mile you'd have a valuable reference point to adjust from. Do you have a pH meter? Even a cheap pH pen is going to work well enough.

 

[cire]

I'm not a chemist, once was a Naval Architect and my age doesn't help me remember what I once knew. As pH is the negative log to base 10 of the hydrogen ion content, I did calculate the amount of my HCl and H2SO4 acids required in deionised water to a specific pH for this project that confirmed my findings, but those notes will also be somewhere at home. However, lactic and phosphoric acids don't act like the acids I use. @Silver_Is_Money is the man who solves those problems.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Might have to get a pH meter.
But next time I cook up invert I'll go with an initial addition of 0.5 ml lactic, and when the sugar is dissolved and at 70c, add a teaspoon of citric, followed by 0.5g baking soda at finish.
I guess if I can dissolve more sugar in the 66% solution, it is acidic enough to invert...

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Due to extremely poor dissociation at pH 2.2 Lactic Acid is an amazingly weak acid at pH 2.2. If @cire's notes are correct and it takes 0.3 mL of 6 Molar HCL to move 500 mL of deionized water to pH 2.2, then (assuming I've done this correctly) it might take about 7.1 mL of 88% Lactic Acid to accomplish the same task.

Who would like to add 7.1 mL of 88% Lactic Acid to half a Liter of distilled or deionized water and measure the resulting pH whereby to verify this?

If (and this is a big IF) I'm even close to being correct here, then it wouldn't be at all wise to use Lactic Acid to move water to pH 2.2. The flavor of the Invert Sugar would be destroyed.

 

[cire]

Due to extremely poor dissociation at pH 2.2 Lactic Acid is an amazingly weak acid at pH 2.2. If @cire's notes are correct and it takes 0.3 mL of 6 Molar HCL to move 500 mL of deionized water to pH 2.2, then (assuming I've done this correctly) it might take about 7.1 mL of 88% Lactic Acid to accomplish the same task.

Who would like to add 7.1 mL of 88% Lactic Acid to half a Liter of distilled or deionized water and measure the resulting pH whereby to verify this?

If (and this is a big IF) I'm even close to being correct here, then it wouldn't be at all wise to use Lactic Acid to move water to pH 2.2. The flavor of the Invert Sugar would be destroyed.

Thank you for this, In early days of water treatment, some British breweries did use Lactic Acid to find they needed far more than with similar strength Sulphuric acid. I'll verify my actual figures when I get home, but the loose figure in my head was for tapwater at pH ~4.4 after acid treatment with HCl to eliminate alkalinity by HCl. If my memory serves me well, for which I have some doubt, That does suggest for DI water, the Lactic Acid addition could be even greater.

A pH meter and good buffers for calibration are undoubtedly essential for this type of work.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

With the due application of another big IF, I'm coming up with about 2.9 grams of anhydrous Citric Acid to move 1/2 Liter of distilled water to ~pH 2.2. As for the above, take this with a huge grain of salt until someone provides verification.

Verification requires only the sacrifice of 1/2 Liter of distilled water, 7.1 mL of 88% Lactic Acid, and 2.9 grams of Citric Acid. That plus some time and effort and a well calibrated and trusted pH meter.

 

[Miraculix]

I am using a dash of lemon juice, heating the sugary liquid up till it is as warm as it gets, hold it there during the mash and/or boil and throwing the syrup in at the end of the boil. That is enough chemistry for me

 

[cire]

Might have to get a pH meter.
But next time I cook up invert I'll go with an initial addition of 0.5 ml lactic, and when the sugar is dissolved and at 70c, add a teaspoon of citric, followed by 0.5g baking soda at finish.
I guess if I can dissolve more sugar in the 66% solution, it is acidic enough to invert...

I find a 66.66% solution with refined sugar (sucrose) does not fully dissolve at ambient and at 70C is still not entirely into solution, but soon after the acid addition the mixture becomes clear and suggest inversion is in progress. When the mixture is simmering, 5% more sugar can be added and go straight into solution. After a just few minutes simmering the heat is removed and the liquid allowed to naturally cool for a few more minutes before the pan is immersed in cold water, then the sodium bicarbonate is slowly added and the mixture stirred to release the CO2 formed.

As the final products at ambient temperature, even after weeks in storage, have all been clear with no granules or crystals present, I assume that a significant proportion of the sucrose has become inverted to fructose and glucose.

The 2.9gm of anhydrous citric acid would a seem good call as I do seem to recall a level teaspoon achieved around that pH with 500ml of my tapwater treated to pH 4.4.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

By a different calculating approach it MAY require only ~4 mL of 88% Lactic Acid or 1.6 grams of anhydrous Citric Acid whereby to move 1/2 Liter of 99 mg/L Alkalinity water (not distilled by any means) to ~pH 2.2.

This approach has less confidence (or rather, I have less confidence in this approach) than the one that determined the greater amounts as seen above. But it offers a starting point.

 

[McMullan]

A fortuitous fail?

All prepped with 660g Demerara and 340g tap water weighed out.

For some reason I focused on a 66% solution. Heated water to 70°C then slowly added sugar while stirring constantly.

Took quite a while to dissolve, before adding 2.4g citric acid.

Some reaction seemed to clear the solution a bit. Maintained at 70°C for about 15 minutes with stirring, without noticing much more than my boredom stirring constantly. It appeared very watery, not much of a syrup, so I decided to add another 340g Demerara, 1kg in total, 2-3 tbsp a go while stirring constantly.

It didn't want to dissolve much, according to my bored self stirring away, getting conscious of the hands-in time clocking up. So I turned the heat up a bit. Then a bit more. That seemed to do the trick. So I turned it up even more.

Before I knew it, it was at 110°C.

Then 116°C.

It normally takes ages to reach 116°C. Looks like adding less water gets it to 116°C a lot sooner. Sounds obvious now

Then I stirred in 2.9g NaHCO3 and now it looks like a Demerara honeycomb.

So I'm thinking about brewing a Demerara Honeycomb Brown Ale this Friday.

Maris Otter (82%)
Chocolate Malt (2%)
Demerara Honeycomb (16%)
Bramling Cross 60min (30g)
Bramling Cross 40min (30g)
Bramling Cross 20min (40g)

OG = 1.053
IBU = 42

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Now I feel like an idiot for using 80% lactic, 10ml in the Demerara#2 as I convinced myself that it needed more acidity to invert as the sugar addition didn't want to disssolv quick enough...
On a positive note, the #3 recieved 5ml and has no tartness, the #2 has a very light tartness I also got once using citric and not neutralising, but it aged away after about a week, so it may fade away after sitting for a while

 

[McMullan]

Almost down to room temperature now. I gave it a good stir. Some reaction carrying on with bubbles evolving. It doesn't seem like it's going to set like honeycomb after all. Settling down into an opaque syrup.

I haven't seen this happen before, but it's the first time I've added NaHCO3. Interestingly, were it allowed to crystallise as is it would look very similar to solid invert supplied by Ragus. What do you think, @cire? I'm not sure if it's going to remain like this or become transparent like it usually is when I make it. Tastes great as well.

 

[McMullan]

Here's some Ragus inverts I stored for future comparisons. On the left #1 and #2 on the right.

 

[monkeymath]

We really ought to rename this thread

"Invert Sugars - What's your favorite recipe?"



I'm following all posts, btw, I just don't have anything to contribute. Will soon bottle my Dark Mild using the dark invert I described in a recent post and provide updates then.l, maybe in one or two weeks.

 

[D.B.Moody]

Now, before I ask my question, let me say that I am going to be doing a brew with invert this summer using turbinado. I need to experience this and a local brewer with good initials (@DBhomebrew) has assured me it's almost easy. I suspect that I'll like it. I'm not trying to be a wiseass; I'm just trying to understand. So:

In light of the recent posts that don't seem to involve getting flavor from darkening the invert by heating, what is the reason for doing the invert? Even though a higher ph aids maillard reactions, this isn't a high ph and the temperature is not high, so I wouldn't think there is much added during the inversion. If the flavors are being provided by the molasses in the raw cane sugar, what is the purpose of inverting it? What is inverting itself providing? If it's really about the raw sugar, maybe just add that like this suggested:

This method for inversion is very similar to that in Graham Wheeler's first book had instructions for inverting sugar, but in later life he told me he didn't invert sugar for his own brews for reasons, but instead used Muscovado sugar.

 

[hout17]

From what I've been reading around different forums; I may just start adding some molasses to taste or just use muscovado or demerara without inverting. The whole thing is to involved lol and it's kind of a ring around the rosy continuous cluster.

Then you have the whole PeeBee thread on the UK forum which I do commend him for his research and he is probably the closest to some kind of answer.

 

[McMullan]

Why would traditional English brewers care about aiding fermentation whilst adding luscious subtle complexity that marries well with English malted barley and hops? Why would commercial suppliers of English brewing invert sugars waste time and much energy when they can just add desirable flavours simply by adding cane molasses to their inverted cane sucrose?

 

[D.B.Moody]

Why would traditional English brewers care about aiding fermentation whilst adding luscious subtle complexity that marries well with English malted barley and hops? Why would commercial suppliers of English brewing invert sugars waste time and much energy when they can just add desirable flavours simply by adding cane molasses to their inverted cane sucrose?

That is what I'm asking. What is it doing beyond inverting? Is this all about "subtle complexity" as in "we don't really know, it just works?"

 

[Miraculix]

A fortuitous fail?

All prepped with 660g Demerara and 340g tap water weighed out.View attachment 768520

For some reason I focused on a 66% solution. Heated water to 70°C then slowly added sugar while stirring constantly.
View attachment 768524

Took quite a while to dissolve, before adding 2.4g citric acid.
View attachment 768525

Some reaction seemed to clear the solution a bit. Maintained at 70°C for about 15 minutes with stirring, without noticing much more than my boredom stirring constantly. It appeared very watery, not much of a syrup, so I decided to add another 340g Demerara, 1kg in total, 2-3 tbsp a go while stirring constantly.
View attachment 768526

It didn't want to dissolve much, according to my bored self stirring away, getting conscious of the hands-in time clocking up. So I turned the heat up a bit. Then a bit more. That seemed to do the trick. So I turned it up even more.

Before I knew it, it was at 110°C.
View attachment 768527

Then 116°C.
View attachment 768528

It normally takes ages to reach 116°C. Looks like adding less water gets it to 116°C a lot sooner. Sounds obvious now

Then I stirred in 2.9g NaHCO3 and now it looks like a Demerara honeycomb.
View attachment 768529



So I'm thinking about brewing a Demerara Honeycomb Brown Ale this Friday.

Maris Otter (82%)
Chocolate Malt (2%)
Demerara Honeycomb (16%)
Bramling Cross 60min (30g)
Bramling Cross 40min (30g)
Bramling Cross 20min (40g)

OG = 1.053
IBU = 42

That is basically what my fathers girlfriend (owns a brewery) told me happens, when he adds the base to neutralise the acid at the end of the boil. Nice to see the pictures, i`ve never seen this myself. He also said that this really brings in the flavour. Can you confirm that? did you do a taste test before and after the base addition?


Btw. I think your non-syrupy syrup at 70 C would have been quite a syrup if you would have cooled it down a bit.

Anyway, these lucky accidents bring much knowledge to the table! Thanks for that! I bet the beer will be good!

 

[McMullan]

From what I've been reading around different forums; I may just start adding some molasses to taste or just use muscovado or demerara without inverting. The whole thing is to involved lol and it's kind of a ring around the rosy continuous cluster.

Then you have the whole PeeBee thread on the UK forum which I do commend him for his research and he is probably the closest to some kind of answer.

The problem with some people, especially like 'pissy pants', is they can't accept diversity. It complicates the fake order of their 'black-and-white' world view. Be suspicious of those who spend so much time complicating what's simple. In terms of brewing sugars, a century ago there would have been more than one or two suppliers in Britain. The processes and business models would have been considerably more diverse than today. Nor would I get overly excited about cracking the Ragus 'code'. It's just another method. I've been quite happy with the unrelated one I've been using for the past 3 or 4 years. The difference, using the same batch of Demerara, is very clear:

Whether it translates into a better beer or not is yet to be determined. I didn't note one between inverts from Ragus and mine.

 

[McMullan]

That is what I'm asking. What is it doing beyond inverting? Is this all about "subtle complexity" as in "we don't really know, it just works?"

No, 'subtle complexty' is noticeable. It's just not "in your face' and unbalanced. As I noted earlier, once you've trained yourself to appreciate the finer qualities of raw cane sugars, it gets easier to detect in the beer. There is more to 'luscious' than one-dimensional sweetness. Suck it and see for yourself.

 

[McMullan]

Anyway, I suspect the main reason why Ragus crystallise their invert is to stabilise it. If left as a syrup I imagine it seperates to some unacceptable degree, complicating tailored additions.

 

[D.B.Moody]

No, 'subtle complexty' is noticeable. It's just not "in your face' and unbalanced. As I noted earlier, once you've trained yourself to appreciate the finer qualities of raw cane sugars, it gets easier to detect in the beer. There is more to 'luscious' than one-dimensional sweetness. Suck it and see for yourself.

I'm sorry, @McMullan, but I apparently didn't ask my question well. I was not saying "subtle" is "unoticeable," and I did not mean to offend you. I will try one more time:
Does it matter if the raw cane sugar in inverted, and, if so, why does it matter?

 

[McMullan]

I'm sorry, @McMullan, but I apparently didn't ask my question well. I was not saying "subtle" is "unoticeable," and I did not mean to offend you. I will try one more time:
Does it matter if the raw cane sugar in inverted, and, if so, why does it matter?

You didn’t offend me in any way. There is no need to invert sucrose then simmer the crap out of it to add desirable flavours to traditional English ales. It makes little sense, when all you need to do is add something like a little cane molasses, which has already had the crap boiled out of it. But this is separate from aiding fermentation anyway. As well as production processes, where tons of more dissolvable stuff is easier to manage than tons of less dissolvable stuff. Adding inverted sucrose actually aids fermentation and, as @cire noted earlier, helps get the beer ready for drinking sooner, too. None of it’s compulsory either. Like anything, if it doesn’t work for you, don’t do it.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Maybe a stupid question, but I want to check if my liberal use of lactic has had any taste effect on my invert.
From my guesstimation, dissolving 0.5 ml of 80% lactic acid in a ~3dl glass of water should get me above the supposed taste threshold, but be diluted enough to be perfectly safe to take a sip or 2 to see if there are any residual lactic flavour, right?

 

[hout17]

The problem with some people, especially like 'pissy pants', is they can't accept diversity. It complicates the fake order of their 'black-and-white' world view. Be suspicious of those who spend so much time complicating what's simple. In terms of brewing sugars, a century ago there would have been more than one or two suppliers in Britain. The processes and business models would have been considerably more diverse than today. Nor would I get overly excited about cracking the Ragus 'code'. It's just another method. I've been quite happy with the unrelated one I've been using for the past 3 or 4 years. The difference, using the same batch of Demerara, is very clear:

View attachment 768542

View attachment 768543

Whether it translates into a better beer or not is yet to be determined. I didn't note one between inverts from Ragus and mine.

Now I can say I inverted turbinado which is similar to demerara but I also heated it until I reached number 3 color (it was already number two). I definitely noticed the flavor in my beer which was a bit to sweet to be honest but after it carbonated it has a nice malty subtle pillowy finish (1910 fuller x mild recipe).

I will probably continue to invert for fermentation sake. I've got to try some muscovado and see how that plays out sometime.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

That is probably due to the partial caramellisation occuring while doing it that way, wich is why I wanted to try replicating a more "true to the original" way of doing.
The batch of #3 I did yesterday has a lot more depth and flavour character than any caramellised, darkened by heat #3 I have ever done.
85% light muscovado and 15% dark, 1.5kg sugar in total for 500ml water, gently heated to 85c after the initial 70c inversion process starting, then neutralised with 0.5g baking soda.

 

[Miraculix]

That is probably due to the partial caramellisation occuring while doing it that way, wich is why I wanted to try replicating a more "true to the original" way of doing.
The batch of #3 I did yesterday has a lot more depth and flavour character than any caramellised, darkened by heat #3 I have ever done.
85% light muscovado and 15% dark, 1.5kg sugar in total for 500ml water, gently heated to 85c after the initial 70c inversion process starting, then neutralised with 0.5g baking soda.

Did you also see this strong change in colour after adding the baking soda, that @McMullan described above?

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Yes, although by the next morning it had cleared back up, I suspect it was air trapped inside the solution that made it look that way.