English Ales - What's your favorite recipe?

[McMullan]

This is the type of thing that leads me to believe that the reasons to use invert are (1) the easier/faster fermentation from having glucose already there for the yeast and (2) the flavors provided by the maillard reactions darkening the sugars. I will use a raw cane sugar for my invert. I'm not sure that the bit of molasses and minerals that would be extracted from a half pound will contribute much, but it feels right and is easier.
I do not believe just adding sugar to the boil will produce any noticeable inversion. I think that is just wishful thinking by someone who doesn't want to go to the trouble of making invert. Brown sugar has more molasses in it than raw cane sugar. It is known that inversion happens at 136 F. I don't even do a vigorous boil. All I'm really trying to do is extract hop alpha acids.

If the sugar added is already luscious and flavoursome, I'd say inverting it isn't strictly necessary. Healthy yeast have no problems synthesising the enzyme invertase to do the job. It just takes several hours or so for that to happen. It's always good to get the yeast off to a flying start, though, imo.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I might try making some invert with light muscovado for#2,the more proper way, and demerara with a dash of dark muscovado for #3.
What ratio of sugar:water do you use? And do you hold the solution for 70-80c for any prolonged time? And if I want to make it solid again, I just need to add some dextrose right?
The next step after this would be to compare this invert #2 in a brew vs one with light muscovado just dumped in for the entire boil, if no real difference is discernible, one could assume sufficient inversion takes place in the kettle.

 

[McMullan]

I've been using sugar to water at 1:1. Heat water to a boil, switch off heat, dissolve sugar, add citric acid then start heating. I don't think there's going to be significant inversion going on in the kettle, due to wort pH and temperature. If it's added to the boil, aim for the last 10 minutes or so. Otherwise add it to the FV. I suspect there's a good chance of losing flavour if cooked for the entire boil. Don't forget, muscovado already has the desirable flavours. Inverting it just improves fermentation, in my mind.

 

[cire]

I think I'll give this procedure a go next time I prep some invert. Seems to be a lot less bother than waiting for sufficient water evaporation to allow the temperature of the solution to go above 100°C. Hitting 116°C, in a safe manner, seems to take ages. Do you start with a 66% solution, as per Ragus? I think that's going to flow better than what I currently make, making it easier to measure out on brew day.

To 500 ml of zero alkalinity water, a kg of refined cane sugar is added, heated and stirred. When the mixture reaches 70C it is mostly dissolved and enough acid is added that would measure between pH 2.2 and 2.0 in 500 ml of pure water.

Gentle heat and stirring is continued and the liquid clarifies, when more sugars can be added and dissolve as inversion occurs. These sugars can be in solid or syrup form, such as refined cane sugar, light or dark brown cane sugar, black treacle or molasses. With all white refined cane sugar the mixture begins to take on a slight yellow tinge which I take to meaning inversion is at or near total completion. With an extra 5% crystal sugar addition, the finished syrup should be clear and not recrystalise

Breweries with pressurised, closed boilers would necessarily add Invert at the start of the boil.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

To 500 ml of zero alkalinity water, a kg of refined cane sugar is added, heated and stirred. When the mixture reaches 70C it is mostly dissolved and enough acid is added that would measure between pH 2.2 and 2.0 in 500 ml of pure water.

Gentle heat and stirring is continued and the liquid clarifies, when more sugars can be added and dissolve as inversion occurs. These sugars can be in solid or syrup form, such as refined cane sugar, light or dark brown cane sugar, black treacle or molasses. With all white refined cane sugar the mixture begins to take on a slight yellow tinge which I take to meaning inversion is at or near total completion. With an extra 5% crystal sugar addition, the finished syrup should be clear and not recrystalise

Breweries with pressurised, closed boilers would necessarily add Invert at the start of the boil.

Seems simpler than the caramellised variety...
I am mostly interrested in #2 and #3 since I also want it to contribute flavour.
You think using demerara for #2 and light muscovado with a dash of dark muscovado for #3 would work?
What would you reckon the PPG for the resulting "syrup' is?

 

[Miraculix]

To 500 ml of zero alkalinity water, a kg of refined cane sugar is added, heated and stirred. When the mixture reaches 70C it is mostly dissolved and enough acid is added that would measure between pH 2.2 and 2.0 in 500 ml of pure water.

Gentle heat and stirring is continued and the liquid clarifies, when more sugars can be added and dissolve as inversion occurs. These sugars can be in solid or syrup form, such as refined cane sugar, light or dark brown cane sugar, black treacle or molasses. With all white refined cane sugar the mixture begins to take on a slight yellow tinge which I take to meaning inversion is at or near total completion. With an extra 5% crystal sugar addition, the finished syrup should be clear and not recrystalise

Breweries with pressurised, closed boilers would necessarily add Invert at the start of the boil.

I will give this a try. Last time I did a dark invert, I used a lot of really dark muscovado and did not like the taste up until more then two hours of constant boiling. The maillard reactions completely changed the taste from licorice to caramel with tobacco and dark fruits with a hint of burnt sugar.

But maybe the taste would have been good after fermentation? Who knows, let's try it out. I can say that the beer (barley wine) I made with the 2h+ boil dark invert is spectacular. But it was also brewed with chevallier as base malt, so I cannot be 100% sure that the marvelouslness doesn't come from this Queen of a base malt.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I Will aswell, I am at home for a few days this week as my wife is sick and someone must take care of the kids, the eldest is at daycare and the smaller one is a fairly easygoing kid, I should be able to do it since the process seems hella easier than the caramellisation variety.
Will do 100% Demerara for a #2 emulation, I could get refined cane sugar, but the cane molasses would cost too much to get over here if I want the quality stuff, so I figure just doing Demerara will be a close match.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I will give this a try. Last time I did a dark invert, I used a lot of really dark muscovado and did not like the taste up until more then two hours of constant boiling. The maillard reactions completely changed the taste from licorice to caramel with tobacco and dark fruits with a hint of burnt sugar.

But maybe the taste would have been good after fermentation? Who knows, let's try it out. I can say that the beer (barley wine) I made with the 2h+ boil dark invert is spectacular. But it was also brewed with chevallier as base malt, so I cannot be 100% sure that the marvelouslness doesn't come from this Queen of a base malt.

I think the trick is to just use a little bit, I did a dark mild last weekend, dissolved a mix of 8/10 light muscovado and 2/10 dark in about 2dl hot wort, and the color looked about right for #3. I think using raw cane sugar in varying darkness degrees bis the best bet to imitate the adding back molasses bit if quality cane molasses are hard to get a hold of.

 

[cire]

@Erik the Anglophile , I just fly by the seat of my pants. Add what dark sugar you think and taste the resulting product. Then add as much of that product as you might think will add a flavour you like. Start with smaller additions and increase in later brews. I've not replicated Ragus block inverts, but have yet to make one that isn't used up in some proportions in subsequent brews. I'm planning a brew with 30% invert soon.

The overwhelming majority of my brews have invert addition(s). Sugar doesn't contain protein like grain, so the beer clears and matures more quickly than an equivalent strength all grain version, but has extra flavours from sugar, and less from malt, unless a small addition of darker malt (20g of chocolate?) is included.

 

[Miraculix]

I think the trick is to just use a little bit, I did a dark mild last weekend, dissolved a mix of 8/10 light muscovado and 2/10 dark in about 2dl hot wort, and the color looked about right for #3. I think using raw cane sugar in varying darkness degrees bis the best bet to imitate the adding back molasses bit if quality cane molasses are hard to get a hold of.

I still have about ten glasses of long boil invert here, now I might be tempted to store them a bit longer to give this a try.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

@Erik the Anglophile , I just fly by the seat of my pants. Add what dark sugar you think and taste the resulting product. Then add as much of that product as you might think will add a flavour you like. Start with smaller additions and increase in later brews. I've not replicated Ragus block inverts, but have yet to make one that isn't used up in some proportions in subsequent brews. I'm planning a brew with 30% invert soon.

The overwhelming majority of my brews have invert addition(s). Sugar doesn't contain protein like grain, so the beer clears and matures more quickly than an equivalent strength all grain version, but has extra flavours from sugar, and less from malt, unless a small addition of darker malt (20g of chocolate?) is included.

Do you neutralise the acidity with baking soda or is it not really necessary?

 

[cire]

I use hydraulic acid and when neutralised by sodium bicarbonate produces salt and a mass of CO2, which needs caution when hot. My water supply is alkaline and minor dilution before adding to the boil is usually all I do unless storing for a prolonged period.

Ragus neutralise to pH 5 to 6, so only a little addition of a base is needed to stop excessive chemical conversion and it is possible that at ambient temperatures, any further conversion will be minimal, but I cannot claim to know that as fact.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I Guess something like 0.5g of sodium bicarbonate should be good then

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Wish me luck...

 

[cire]

I Guess something like 0.5g of sodium bicarbonate should be good then

I'm not at home presently, so don't have my figures to hand, but those figures need an explanation as I brew in a way that doesn't fit the standard approach on this forum.

I use my alkaline tapwater adjusted to the accepted end point for alkalinity, pH ~4.4. As my water varies in mineral content, by taking a TDS reading and inputting that to my own spreadsheet, the required acid addition is calculated and applied before the sugar is added to the water. At 70C a fixed addition is made per 500ml of water to get between pH 2.2 and 2.0, which from afar I think might be 0.3 ml of 6 molar HCl. If the invert is to be added to the boil, then it should be neutralised to between pH 5 and pH 6, for a typical preboil kettle pH. If the sugar is added to the FV, then I'll be looking for pH 5.2 to 3.9, depending on the stage of fermentation when added.

Of course, if the invert addition is only relatively little, none of that is important, whatever you do will not cause any reason for concern, but can be with large additions in some late 19th/early 20th century beers. Also there is option to reduce pH in the kettle if higher than desirable.

Probably 0.5 gm of sodium bicarb might be enough to stop any further reaction at ambient, but while on holiday in the Lake District, I don't know.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Cooked up a double batch yesterday, #2 and #3.
The #2 is not as dark as it looks, it's mostly because it's really cloudy and dim here today. It has a deep red dark amber colour, but a pdf I found from ragus lists #2 as 60-70 ebc so it is supposed to be kind of dark I suppose.
The #3 is pitch black as it's supposed to be, listed at 120-140 ebc so looks about right.
Used 1500g Demerara for #2 and 1275+225 light+dark muscovado for #3. Both slowly heated to about 85c before getting a small sodium bicarbonate addition and poured in jars
I think my only messup was being a bit too liberal in my use of lactic acid in #2, as the second sugar addition did not want to properly dissolve, I kept adding 80% acid for a grand total of 10ml...
For the #3 I settled on a more moderate 5.
In retrospect I remembered that Demerara can be a bit of a pain to completely dissolve, there are some small intact granules still in the bottom of the #2 jars, might have to heat it to near simmering next time to ensure complete dissolving. The #3 is completely dissolved, #2 has a very slight tartness to it, but I remember that my first invert attempt where I didn't neutralise also had that, and it aged out in a week or so.
Definitely easier than the caramellisation variety, and hopefully closer to the real deal, should have ended with syrup at about 75% sugar content and 35 PPG.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Ended up at 77% for #3 and 81% for #2.
Next time I might try heating until it just about starts simmering and then remove from heat, to maximise sugar content.

 

[McMullan]

Ended up at 77% for #3 and 81% for #2.
Next time I might try heating until it just about starts simmering and then remove from heat, to maximise sugar content.

Does it flow more easily? I've just done some countertop chemistry to determine how much citric acid gets my tap water down to pH 2.2 and how many 1/4 tsp NaHCO3 take it back up. Per litre it works out about 2 tsp citric acid then about 1/2 tsp to increase pH by about 1.0. Even at room temperature adding 1/4 tsp NaHCO3 was quite reactive. I wouldn't want to dump it straight in the hot stuff, as @cire warned.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

The syrup is quite watery, I added 0.5g NaHCO3 to both batches, I actually didn't get any violent reaction.
I wonder though if the invert sugar has some tendency to self-stabilise over time, given that the tartness tend to age out.
You think you could help me calculate how many ml 80% lactic or g citric acid is actually needed to get my 99mg/L HCO3 water (500 ml) down to about 2.2 pH?

 

[cire]

Ragus start with a 2/3rds sugar solution, acidify to pH 1.6 and hold at 70C. For #1 they add a further 5% of the same sugar to produce a syrup, then to turn that into block, seed it with 10% glucose. For #2 and #3 they do similar except the 5% addition is of darker (molasses type) sugars. Syrup is therefore about 68% and solid block 70% sugar.

I don't find Ragus inverts provide a lot of colour. A beer with about 5% #3 Ragus and a similar proportion of homemade #3 was casked in a plastic pin and a plastic barrel before coming on holiday, so when home and the beer is clear, will take a picture and post it with a list of ingredients. When we arrived I had a pint of Jennings Cumberland, it's now called Cumberland Gold (aligning with BJCP guidelines?) and I thought it tasted of Ragus #3, and is Gold in colour. A search found the following.

Here's a recipe that comes from a very good source - I haven't tried it yet though.
Maris Otter Pale Malt - 3.54Kg
Torrefied wheat - 340g
Brewers Sugar - 200g
Chocolate Malt - 20g

23l brewlength
OG = 1041

Fuggles AAU 4.7 - 25.5g - 60 mins - 15.5 IBU's
Challenger AAU 7.0 - 4.5g - 60 mins - 4 IBU's
EK Goldings AAU 4.7 - 25.5g - 60 mins - 15.5 IBU's

Total IBU's = 35.1

Simpson's Chocolate Malt is 1200 EBC and probably provides at least as much colour as does the invert.

From memory, and this could be wrong, but not by miles, I add about 0.4ml of 6 molar HCl to remove 250ppm alkalinity as CaCO3 to pH 4.4 in 500 ml of my tapwater, then another 0.3ml to pH 2.2. I've done it with citric acid crystals and remember there being a vast difference between a heaped and a level spoonful. I seem to think a level spoonful was enough to take 500ml from pH 4.4 to 2.2, but those notes are at home.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

So about 0.5 ml lactic, then another teaspoon of citric should be a decent approach by my quick guesstimate calculations?
I am really not a chemist and spent most my highschool math lessons flipping of the teacher in the rare occassion I attended... I guess I shoulda payed more attention

 

[McMullan]

You think you could help me calculate how many ml 80% lactic or g citric acid is actually needed to get my 99mg/L HCO3 water (500 ml) down to about 2.2 pH?

One of the chemists among us is better answering here. I'm not even sure if my 'out-of-date' (BB 16/03/19) citric acid compares well generally. You might need half as much if using something in date? Ditto my Dr.Oetker natron. Although it's in date and a level 1/4 tsp weighs about 2.2g. Ideally, it's determined empirically in your specific environment, to take account of the fact we're not using truly calibrated tools. Even if it's off by a mile you'd have a valuable reference point to adjust from. Do you have a pH meter? Even a cheap pH pen is going to work well enough.

 

[cire]

I'm not a chemist, once was a Naval Architect and my age doesn't help me remember what I once knew. As pH is the negative log to base 10 of the hydrogen ion content, I did calculate the amount of my HCl and H2SO4 acids required in deionised water to a specific pH for this project that confirmed my findings, but those notes will also be somewhere at home. However, lactic and phosphoric acids don't act like the acids I use. @Silver_Is_Money is the man who solves those problems.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Might have to get a pH meter.
But next time I cook up invert I'll go with an initial addition of 0.5 ml lactic, and when the sugar is dissolved and at 70c, add a teaspoon of citric, followed by 0.5g baking soda at finish.
I guess if I can dissolve more sugar in the 66% solution, it is acidic enough to invert...

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Due to extremely poor dissociation at pH 2.2 Lactic Acid is an amazingly weak acid at pH 2.2. If @cire's notes are correct and it takes 0.3 mL of 6 Molar HCL to move 500 mL of deionized water to pH 2.2, then (assuming I've done this correctly) it might take about 7.1 mL of 88% Lactic Acid to accomplish the same task.

Who would like to add 7.1 mL of 88% Lactic Acid to half a Liter of distilled or deionized water and measure the resulting pH whereby to verify this?

If (and this is a big IF) I'm even close to being correct here, then it wouldn't be at all wise to use Lactic Acid to move water to pH 2.2. The flavor of the Invert Sugar would be destroyed.

 

[cire]

Due to extremely poor dissociation at pH 2.2 Lactic Acid is an amazingly weak acid at pH 2.2. If @cire's notes are correct and it takes 0.3 mL of 6 Molar HCL to move 500 mL of deionized water to pH 2.2, then (assuming I've done this correctly) it might take about 7.1 mL of 88% Lactic Acid to accomplish the same task.

Who would like to add 7.1 mL of 88% Lactic Acid to half a Liter of distilled or deionized water and measure the resulting pH whereby to verify this?

If (and this is a big IF) I'm even close to being correct here, then it wouldn't be at all wise to use Lactic Acid to move water to pH 2.2. The flavor of the Invert Sugar would be destroyed.

Thank you for this, In early days of water treatment, some British breweries did use Lactic Acid to find they needed far more than with similar strength Sulphuric acid. I'll verify my actual figures when I get home, but the loose figure in my head was for tapwater at pH ~4.4 after acid treatment with HCl to eliminate alkalinity by HCl. If my memory serves me well, for which I have some doubt, That does suggest for DI water, the Lactic Acid addition could be even greater.

A pH meter and good buffers for calibration are undoubtedly essential for this type of work.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

With the due application of another big IF, I'm coming up with about 2.9 grams of anhydrous Citric Acid to move 1/2 Liter of distilled water to ~pH 2.2. As for the above, take this with a huge grain of salt until someone provides verification.

Verification requires only the sacrifice of 1/2 Liter of distilled water, 7.1 mL of 88% Lactic Acid, and 2.9 grams of Citric Acid. That plus some time and effort and a well calibrated and trusted pH meter.

 

[Miraculix]

I am using a dash of lemon juice, heating the sugary liquid up till it is as warm as it gets, hold it there during the mash and/or boil and throwing the syrup in at the end of the boil. That is enough chemistry for me

 

[cire]

Might have to get a pH meter.
But next time I cook up invert I'll go with an initial addition of 0.5 ml lactic, and when the sugar is dissolved and at 70c, add a teaspoon of citric, followed by 0.5g baking soda at finish.
I guess if I can dissolve more sugar in the 66% solution, it is acidic enough to invert...

I find a 66.66% solution with refined sugar (sucrose) does not fully dissolve at ambient and at 70C is still not entirely into solution, but soon after the acid addition the mixture becomes clear and suggest inversion is in progress. When the mixture is simmering, 5% more sugar can be added and go straight into solution. After a just few minutes simmering the heat is removed and the liquid allowed to naturally cool for a few more minutes before the pan is immersed in cold water, then the sodium bicarbonate is slowly added and the mixture stirred to release the CO2 formed.

As the final products at ambient temperature, even after weeks in storage, have all been clear with no granules or crystals present, I assume that a significant proportion of the sucrose has become inverted to fructose and glucose.

The 2.9gm of anhydrous citric acid would a seem good call as I do seem to recall a level teaspoon achieved around that pH with 500ml of my tapwater treated to pH 4.4.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

By a different calculating approach it MAY require only ~4 mL of 88% Lactic Acid or 1.6 grams of anhydrous Citric Acid whereby to move 1/2 Liter of 99 mg/L Alkalinity water (not distilled by any means) to ~pH 2.2.

This approach has less confidence (or rather, I have less confidence in this approach) than the one that determined the greater amounts as seen above. But it offers a starting point.