English Ales - What's your favorite recipe?

[McMullan]

A fortuitous fail?

All prepped with 660g Demerara and 340g tap water weighed out.

For some reason I focused on a 66% solution. Heated water to 70°C then slowly added sugar while stirring constantly.

Took quite a while to dissolve, before adding 2.4g citric acid.

Some reaction seemed to clear the solution a bit. Maintained at 70°C for about 15 minutes with stirring, without noticing much more than my boredom stirring constantly. It appeared very watery, not much of a syrup, so I decided to add another 340g Demerara, 1kg in total, 2-3 tbsp a go while stirring constantly.

It didn't want to dissolve much, according to my bored self stirring away, getting conscious of the hands-in time clocking up. So I turned the heat up a bit. Then a bit more. That seemed to do the trick. So I turned it up even more.

Before I knew it, it was at 110°C.

Then 116°C.

It normally takes ages to reach 116°C. Looks like adding less water gets it to 116°C a lot sooner. Sounds obvious now

Then I stirred in 2.9g NaHCO3 and now it looks like a Demerara honeycomb.

So I'm thinking about brewing a Demerara Honeycomb Brown Ale this Friday.

Maris Otter (82%)
Chocolate Malt (2%)
Demerara Honeycomb (16%)
Bramling Cross 60min (30g)
Bramling Cross 40min (30g)
Bramling Cross 20min (40g)

OG = 1.053
IBU = 42

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Now I feel like an idiot for using 80% lactic, 10ml in the Demerara#2 as I convinced myself that it needed more acidity to invert as the sugar addition didn't want to disssolv quick enough...
On a positive note, the #3 recieved 5ml and has no tartness, the #2 has a very light tartness I also got once using citric and not neutralising, but it aged away after about a week, so it may fade away after sitting for a while

 

[McMullan]

Almost down to room temperature now. I gave it a good stir. Some reaction carrying on with bubbles evolving. It doesn't seem like it's going to set like honeycomb after all. Settling down into an opaque syrup.

I haven't seen this happen before, but it's the first time I've added NaHCO3. Interestingly, were it allowed to crystallise as is it would look very similar to solid invert supplied by Ragus. What do you think, @cire? I'm not sure if it's going to remain like this or become transparent like it usually is when I make it. Tastes great as well.

 

[McMullan]

Here's some Ragus inverts I stored for future comparisons. On the left #1 and #2 on the right.

 

[monkeymath]

We really ought to rename this thread

"Invert Sugars - What's your favorite recipe?"



I'm following all posts, btw, I just don't have anything to contribute. Will soon bottle my Dark Mild using the dark invert I described in a recent post and provide updates then.l, maybe in one or two weeks.

 

[D.B.Moody]

Now, before I ask my question, let me say that I am going to be doing a brew with invert this summer using turbinado. I need to experience this and a local brewer with good initials (@DBhomebrew) has assured me it's almost easy. I suspect that I'll like it. I'm not trying to be a wiseass; I'm just trying to understand. So:

In light of the recent posts that don't seem to involve getting flavor from darkening the invert by heating, what is the reason for doing the invert? Even though a higher ph aids maillard reactions, this isn't a high ph and the temperature is not high, so I wouldn't think there is much added during the inversion. If the flavors are being provided by the molasses in the raw cane sugar, what is the purpose of inverting it? What is inverting itself providing? If it's really about the raw sugar, maybe just add that like this suggested:

This method for inversion is very similar to that in Graham Wheeler's first book had instructions for inverting sugar, but in later life he told me he didn't invert sugar for his own brews for reasons, but instead used Muscovado sugar.

 

[hout17]

From what I've been reading around different forums; I may just start adding some molasses to taste or just use muscovado or demerara without inverting. The whole thing is to involved lol and it's kind of a ring around the rosy continuous cluster.

Then you have the whole PeeBee thread on the UK forum which I do commend him for his research and he is probably the closest to some kind of answer.

 

[McMullan]

Why would traditional English brewers care about aiding fermentation whilst adding luscious subtle complexity that marries well with English malted barley and hops? Why would commercial suppliers of English brewing invert sugars waste time and much energy when they can just add desirable flavours simply by adding cane molasses to their inverted cane sucrose?

 

[D.B.Moody]

Why would traditional English brewers care about aiding fermentation whilst adding luscious subtle complexity that marries well with English malted barley and hops? Why would commercial suppliers of English brewing invert sugars waste time and much energy when they can just add desirable flavours simply by adding cane molasses to their inverted cane sucrose?

That is what I'm asking. What is it doing beyond inverting? Is this all about "subtle complexity" as in "we don't really know, it just works?"

 

[Miraculix]

A fortuitous fail?

All prepped with 660g Demerara and 340g tap water weighed out.View attachment 768520

For some reason I focused on a 66% solution. Heated water to 70°C then slowly added sugar while stirring constantly.
View attachment 768524

Took quite a while to dissolve, before adding 2.4g citric acid.
View attachment 768525

Some reaction seemed to clear the solution a bit. Maintained at 70°C for about 15 minutes with stirring, without noticing much more than my boredom stirring constantly. It appeared very watery, not much of a syrup, so I decided to add another 340g Demerara, 1kg in total, 2-3 tbsp a go while stirring constantly.
View attachment 768526

It didn't want to dissolve much, according to my bored self stirring away, getting conscious of the hands-in time clocking up. So I turned the heat up a bit. Then a bit more. That seemed to do the trick. So I turned it up even more.

Before I knew it, it was at 110°C.
View attachment 768527

Then 116°C.
View attachment 768528

It normally takes ages to reach 116°C. Looks like adding less water gets it to 116°C a lot sooner. Sounds obvious now

Then I stirred in 2.9g NaHCO3 and now it looks like a Demerara honeycomb.
View attachment 768529



So I'm thinking about brewing a Demerara Honeycomb Brown Ale this Friday.

Maris Otter (82%)
Chocolate Malt (2%)
Demerara Honeycomb (16%)
Bramling Cross 60min (30g)
Bramling Cross 40min (30g)
Bramling Cross 20min (40g)

OG = 1.053
IBU = 42

That is basically what my fathers girlfriend (owns a brewery) told me happens, when he adds the base to neutralise the acid at the end of the boil. Nice to see the pictures, i`ve never seen this myself. He also said that this really brings in the flavour. Can you confirm that? did you do a taste test before and after the base addition?


Btw. I think your non-syrupy syrup at 70 C would have been quite a syrup if you would have cooled it down a bit.

Anyway, these lucky accidents bring much knowledge to the table! Thanks for that! I bet the beer will be good!

 

[McMullan]

From what I've been reading around different forums; I may just start adding some molasses to taste or just use muscovado or demerara without inverting. The whole thing is to involved lol and it's kind of a ring around the rosy continuous cluster.

Then you have the whole PeeBee thread on the UK forum which I do commend him for his research and he is probably the closest to some kind of answer.

The problem with some people, especially like 'pissy pants', is they can't accept diversity. It complicates the fake order of their 'black-and-white' world view. Be suspicious of those who spend so much time complicating what's simple. In terms of brewing sugars, a century ago there would have been more than one or two suppliers in Britain. The processes and business models would have been considerably more diverse than today. Nor would I get overly excited about cracking the Ragus 'code'. It's just another method. I've been quite happy with the unrelated one I've been using for the past 3 or 4 years. The difference, using the same batch of Demerara, is very clear:

Whether it translates into a better beer or not is yet to be determined. I didn't note one between inverts from Ragus and mine.

 

[McMullan]

That is what I'm asking. What is it doing beyond inverting? Is this all about "subtle complexity" as in "we don't really know, it just works?"

No, 'subtle complexty' is noticeable. It's just not "in your face' and unbalanced. As I noted earlier, once you've trained yourself to appreciate the finer qualities of raw cane sugars, it gets easier to detect in the beer. There is more to 'luscious' than one-dimensional sweetness. Suck it and see for yourself.

 

[McMullan]

Anyway, I suspect the main reason why Ragus crystallise their invert is to stabilise it. If left as a syrup I imagine it seperates to some unacceptable degree, complicating tailored additions.

 

[D.B.Moody]

No, 'subtle complexty' is noticeable. It's just not "in your face' and unbalanced. As I noted earlier, once you've trained yourself to appreciate the finer qualities of raw cane sugars, it gets easier to detect in the beer. There is more to 'luscious' than one-dimensional sweetness. Suck it and see for yourself.

I'm sorry, @McMullan, but I apparently didn't ask my question well. I was not saying "subtle" is "unoticeable," and I did not mean to offend you. I will try one more time:
Does it matter if the raw cane sugar in inverted, and, if so, why does it matter?

 

[McMullan]

I'm sorry, @McMullan, but I apparently didn't ask my question well. I was not saying "subtle" is "unoticeable," and I did not mean to offend you. I will try one more time:
Does it matter if the raw cane sugar in inverted, and, if so, why does it matter?

You didn’t offend me in any way. There is no need to invert sucrose then simmer the crap out of it to add desirable flavours to traditional English ales. It makes little sense, when all you need to do is add something like a little cane molasses, which has already had the crap boiled out of it. But this is separate from aiding fermentation anyway. As well as production processes, where tons of more dissolvable stuff is easier to manage than tons of less dissolvable stuff. Adding inverted sucrose actually aids fermentation and, as @cire noted earlier, helps get the beer ready for drinking sooner, too. None of it’s compulsory either. Like anything, if it doesn’t work for you, don’t do it.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Maybe a stupid question, but I want to check if my liberal use of lactic has had any taste effect on my invert.
From my guesstimation, dissolving 0.5 ml of 80% lactic acid in a ~3dl glass of water should get me above the supposed taste threshold, but be diluted enough to be perfectly safe to take a sip or 2 to see if there are any residual lactic flavour, right?

 

[hout17]

The problem with some people, especially like 'pissy pants', is they can't accept diversity. It complicates the fake order of their 'black-and-white' world view. Be suspicious of those who spend so much time complicating what's simple. In terms of brewing sugars, a century ago there would have been more than one or two suppliers in Britain. The processes and business models would have been considerably more diverse than today. Nor would I get overly excited about cracking the Ragus 'code'. It's just another method. I've been quite happy with the unrelated one I've been using for the past 3 or 4 years. The difference, using the same batch of Demerara, is very clear:

View attachment 768542

View attachment 768543

Whether it translates into a better beer or not is yet to be determined. I didn't note one between inverts from Ragus and mine.

Now I can say I inverted turbinado which is similar to demerara but I also heated it until I reached number 3 color (it was already number two). I definitely noticed the flavor in my beer which was a bit to sweet to be honest but after it carbonated it has a nice malty subtle pillowy finish (1910 fuller x mild recipe).

I will probably continue to invert for fermentation sake. I've got to try some muscovado and see how that plays out sometime.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

That is probably due to the partial caramellisation occuring while doing it that way, wich is why I wanted to try replicating a more "true to the original" way of doing.
The batch of #3 I did yesterday has a lot more depth and flavour character than any caramellised, darkened by heat #3 I have ever done.
85% light muscovado and 15% dark, 1.5kg sugar in total for 500ml water, gently heated to 85c after the initial 70c inversion process starting, then neutralised with 0.5g baking soda.

 

[Miraculix]

That is probably due to the partial caramellisation occuring while doing it that way, wich is why I wanted to try replicating a more "true to the original" way of doing.
The batch of #3 I did yesterday has a lot more depth and flavour character than any caramellised, darkened by heat #3 I have ever done.
85% light muscovado and 15% dark, 1.5kg sugar in total for 500ml water, gently heated to 85c after the initial 70c inversion process starting, then neutralised with 0.5g baking soda.

Did you also see this strong change in colour after adding the baking soda, that @McMullan described above?

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Yes, although by the next morning it had cleared back up, I suspect it was air trapped inside the solution that made it look that way.

 

[McMullan]

If it's too 'sweet' add a bit less to the style brewed. When you think you like it, brew the same beer without it then make an informed personal choice. I can't rememer the last time I didn't add any to an English ale.

 

[McMullan]

Yes, although by the next morning it had cleared back up, I suspect it was air trapped inside the solution that made it look that way.

CO2 mainly. I expect to see some kind of separation at some point, which is why I'm guessing Ragus chystallise their brewing inverts as they do. Dissolved in a little wort makes no noticeable difference either way.

 

[cire]

The influence of invert depends upon the types (yes plural) used, their proportion of the brew and all other ingredients. Do not think that the influence of invert sugar is black or white. If you don't like the result, ask yourself if you might have added too little, too much or that you should have added a small amount of another malt.

Yeast cannot immediately ingest sucrose, but does produce invertase, an enzyme, that converts sucrose to glucose and fructose. We call it inverted because it refracts polarised light in the opposite direction to noninverted sucrose. Obviously the production of invertase by yeast requires both energy and time, but not if the job is already done for them. Beekeepers replacing reserves face a similar problem as bees can't ingest sucrose either, but they buy expensive invertase, extracted from yeast. That process takes time, but is started well in advance of any deadline. I suspect adding sucrose prolongs fermentation and weakens yeast. Graham Wheeler had many opinions that flew in the face of brewing practices, some of which he was likely right, but he and I frequently disagreed on such subjects.

@McMullan #3 Ragus is not a lot darker than #2 and the colour I see in your picture is likely affected by CO2 bubbles. I have always started with Tate and Lyle refined cane sugar granules, 65P a kg from B&M in Britain. My #1 syrup is a pale straw colour. When I use that in a brew I will often substitute Vienna malt for some of the pale malt. For other grades I add light and darker brown sugars, then black treacle and ultimately molasses. For colour I will add small amounts of Black Malt to the recipe or Brewer's Caramel.

 

[McMullan]

the colour I see in your picture is likely affected by CO2 bubbles

I agree. Like Ragus' inverts?

 

[cire]

I agree. Like Ragus' inverts?

I struggle somewhat with colours of Ragus invert sugars. #1 Ragus colour is like a rather pale cheese, just a lot harder in texture. Other grades are not a lot darker, but softer in texture. I believe the grades determine flavour, their colour is incidental, but yours does look close to #3.

My last brew had, from memory, just over 500 gm of Ragus #3. Placed in a 2 litre jug, boiling wort was poured onto it and quickly returned to the boiler. The wort was from a 7kg mix of base malts, flaked maize and torrified barley for a 50 litre brew, and at a guess the colour changed from about 7 EBC to maybe 20 EBC.

Don't choose invert additions to achieve a particular colour, that should be achieved with kilned grains or Brewer's Caramel.

 

[McMullan]

I struggle somewhat with colours of Ragus invert sugars. #1 Ragus colour is like a rather pale cheese, just a lot harder in texture. Other grades are not a lot darker, but softer in texture. I believe the grades determine flavour, their colour is incidental, but yours does look close to #3.

My last brew had, from memory, just over 500 gm of Ragus #3. Placed in a 2 litre jug, boiling wort was poured onto it and quickly returned to the boiler. The wort was from a 7kg mix of base malts, flaked maize and torrified barley for a 50 litre brew, and at a guess the colour changed from about 7 EBC to maybe 20 EBC.

Don't choose invert additions to achieve a particular colour, that should be achieved with kilned grains or Brewer's Caramel.

I was referring more to the opaqueness of Ragus inverts vs the typical translucent homemade inverts.

 

[cire]

Well, Ragus Block Invert is crystalised and solid, so light won't pass through it.

The Ragus website has pictures showing crystal clear invert syrup, but not of Brewers Invert. However, I'm convinced that Ragus Invert #1 will be equally clear before the seeding with 10% glucose. Then, still warm and liquid, the syrup is poured into a blue plastic bag inside a cardboard box, where it slowly crystalises and solidifies, and becomes opaque.

I can't be certain about how transparent, or not, Ragus #2 and #3 might be when they are liquid and before they are seeded. All my attempts are translucent, as are the ingredients when in solution, but were those to be seeded with sufficient glucose for those to solidify, I suspect they would become opaque and not remain translucent.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

So I tasted my #2 this morning, and surprisingly, it didn't taste anything like lactic acid.
It tasted sweet and a little rummy/fruity, but apart from that I got nothing of that cheesy taste you can get in your mouth when really exhausted, wich I imagine lactic acid taste like. This despite using 10(!) Ml in that batch.
My SWMBO could not pick up any either, but to be safe I Will next time use only 0.5ml in the starting acidification and then 1tsp of citric once the sugar solution reaches 70c...

 

[McMullan]

Mines still opaque.

Some signs bubbles have risen through the thick syrup, but even the bottom cm or so, where there aren't any visible bubbles remaining, the syrup remains opaque.

Aroma is comparable, kind of hints of nose in a bag of Demerara. Opaque one seems a little more intense. Translucent one maybe a tad fruitier.

Spooning out, the opaque one is a slightly stiffer syrup.

Opaque one tastes more complex with some fudge-like character and a sweetness that's similar to Ragus inverts, but slightly less. Second taste. Mmm! Third. Subtle toffee notes coming through with fruity caramel fudge. Makes the original luscious Demerara almost bland by comparison, which is insane because it normally tastes amazing to me. Translucent one tastes simpler, fruitier and maybe a little sweeter with a nice toffee apple thing going on. More comparable to the sugar in the bag.

I'm wondering how they compare fermentability wise. Guessing opague is less fermentable? I haven't got any active ale yeast on the go, but I'll need to prep some for a split batch to compare FV invert additions. All I've got currently are packs of dry yeast, London, Nottingham and Verdant. I think London in half batch of the Brown Ale tomorrow then harvest some healthier yeast to play with.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

You likely got a bit of caramellisation and a higher concentration of sugar in the opaque one since it boiled so long