Electric/Automated Brewery Dilemma

[GParkins]

@GrassBrewer, I think that your concerns for approved equipment are quite valid, but within the framework of industrial or critical applications. I would not want to be operated on by a DaVinci that used an Arduino controller. In my industry, classification society type approvals rule the equipment we select for our customers. I'm pretty sure the FAA has got their own opinions about materials selection, too.

At the end of the day, brewing beer at home is a hobby. While it's a moist environment, there is little vibration and little pressure. As long as you pay rigorous attention to best practices for electrical safety (grounding, GFCI protection, and overcurrent protection), you should be just fine. Save some money by going with an Arduino, and have a blast at your LHBS when it comes time to buy grains for your first automated brew!

 

[Inspire]

@GrassBrewer PLC is the dinosaur in automation. You'll see more and more arduinos and less and less PLC. Just think of servers running Linux vs Windows based. It will be the same with Arduino vs PLC. I would recommend you to do arduino, and that way at least you have experience at the new age of automation.

 

[GrassBrewer]

Thanks @Inspire... I've used all of them. Arduinos, Pi's, Netduinos, PLCs, etc.... The choice for PLCs in brewing is strictly for safety, nothing more. Raspberry Pis would likely be used in conjunction with a PLC, since you can get a decent UI out of it a lot easier.

When it comes to high voltage, large moving parts, and especially if you are automating natural gas on and off, you need to be careful. I suppose when I talk PLCs I am talking safety rated hardware that has been tested every which way and is rated by third parties. $20-30 boards you buy off amazon will never have that. This is why PLCs are more expensive though, which is the major downside.

I am working on some designs that take the best from both worlds.

 

[augiedoggy]

I vote #4.

I was in a similar position last month. I wanted to go electric, I wanted simplicity in design without sacrificing functionality, and I wanted to end the upgrade cycle. I enjoyed the DIY aspect of the hobby, but I felt like I reached a point where I wanted to focus on the beer, not the equipment. So I needed a system that was solid, repeatable, and complete.

I planned out a kal clone. After pricing everything out it looked like it would cost me about $1k. I was excited to build it.

Then I started looking at the grainfather again. It heats the water, keeps the mash temp, recirculates, boils, cools and seemed to do it all well. NB had a 20% off sale and I jumped on it. $799 delivered to my door. In one piece. I've done 3 brews and love it so far.

The think what really impresses me the most is its simplicity. Its more or less self-contained in one pot. There are other parts of course--the mash pipe, the recirculation arm, and the CFC--but they're all so well designed and quick and easy to connect. It eliminates so much equipment. Its easy to clean. I don't need 3 enormous pots. I don't need hoses or worm clamps. I don't need to lug out garden hoses, cords, pumps, etc. I don't need ventilation. I find myself standing around on brew day feeling like I should be doing something but nothing needs to be done.

I do think 110v is enough. I don't get the raging boil that I could get on my propane setup, but I've read a lot lately--mostly from Martin Brungard--that its better to boil with less vigor and target 7-8% boil off, which is what I get with the GF. I've done a step mash too and that worked great. I would still describe my boil as "rolling". The downside is that it takes me over an hour to heat up my water (I heat strike and sparge together, so about 9 gallons), but that's not much of a concern because with the connect I can do that before I wake up.

The question is whether it holds up long term. It comes with a 2 year warranty and the feedback I've seen suggests the company is quick to replace anything that breaks. But of course, I'd change my tune if it crapped out in year 3.

please dont take this the wrong way but if you were really completely content with what you have then why are you reading this thread in the automated brewing section?... just saying..
With hobbies its often normal for people to want "better equipment" to interact with or mix it up... Its part of what makes the Hobby enjoyable for many.. and for a good portion of people the equipment is more fun than the actual brewing aspect.

If I was married and told my wife I was going to buy an $800 all in one brewing system limited to smaller 5 gallon brews while I planned a more expensive, larger, and completely different setup I would kind of expect her not to be happy and try to stop me.

I repair flatscreen tvs I get from a friend at a recycling center and about 25% of the tvs I get have nothing wrong with them but I imagine at least some of those tvs came from households where the wife was made to believe it was broken so the hubby could get a newer toy... Thats become the norm with our society in some ways.

 

[augiedoggy]

Understood on the safety concerns. While an Arduino hardware solution does not have safety certifications, we are failrly confident in the practical safety of its utilization so long as appropriate design, component selection, and wiring/building standards are implemented. At the end of the day, every PLC runs its logic on an integrated circuit. How that circuit ultimately connects to high power devices is what matters. Assuming you are integrating and isolating appropriately, for example to dry contact relay board or SSR’s with opto-isolated front ends, incorporating proper grounding and overload protection, physically separating HV and LV components and wiring, etc. your control panel should be very safe in practical application.

No rig should ever be used unmonitored, but there are many users who have used Arduino, Raspberry Pi, etc. non-industrial level controllers with great success, despite often questionable build and component quality. And at the end of the day, the most industrial PLC will not fix poor control panel design or build quality!

If you wanted a more assured level of protection, you might like the reasonable PLCs offered by www.industrialshields.com.

We shall soon find out how my local electrical inspector feels about me using an arduino based controller for my "commercial" 3bbl panel build...

This has been a real concern of mine even though the arduino is only doing the low voltage control aspect and really shouldnt be a concern... its really no different than the microprocessor and guts of a pid (which are often running on dc voltages internally). I designed my panel so that the arduino controls small relays which actually control the coils of the full sized relays. and there are float and flow switches for safety.. I just dont see myself how a plc could be any safer? theres nothing but 5 and 12v dc on the logic/ control side.. and using mechanical relays in a configuration where multiple things cannot be active at the same time for power requirement reasons makes it pretty foolproof as I see it.

 

[GParkins]

We shall soon find out how my local electrical inspector feels about me using an arduino based controller for my "commercial" 3bbl panel build...

This has been a real concern of mine even though the arduino is only doing the low voltage control aspect and really shouldnt be a concern... its really no different than the microprocessor and guts of a pid (which are often running on dc voltages internally). I designed my panel so that the arduino controls small relays which actually control the coils of the full sized relays. and there are float and flow switches for safety.. I just dont see myself how a plc could be any safer? theres nothing but 5 and 12v dc on the logic/ control side.. and using mechanical relays in a configuration where multiple things cannot be active at the same time for power requirement reasons makes it pretty foolproof as I see it.

I concur with this. Inspectors are going to be concerned with shock and fire hazard mitigation. As long as there is:

• Proper overcurrent protection
• Ground fault protection
• Proper cable specification
• Proper grounding
• Protection against accidental contact with hazardous (120VAC or greater) voltage
• Protection against multiple power sources attaching to the main bus
• Compliance with local building codes,

the worst that can happen is a popped breaker or fuse. Inspectors should be happy, as long as the city/county has gotten their pound of flesh for the permit fees. It also helps if the brewstand is attached to the source of power via a portable cord that plugs into an outlet and is then not subject to local codes. That doesn't help @augiedoggy with his 3-bbl nano, but it should make @GrassBrewer's project a little less onerous.

Burn safety is a horse of a different color, and that is where the float and flow switches (and quality hose clamps) come into play. No one wants to get sprayed with hot/boiling wort. In my mind, my new system is going to be an order of magnitude safer, because I will no longer have to hoist 6 gallons of wort in a converted keg up onto a propane burner on a table to get the height needed for draining into a carboy.

I am specifically not addressing the use of natural gas or propane in an automated system. Using an open burner is less efficient than a fully immersed heating element, and subjects the process to additional variables like wind speed. I know there are rigs that successfully use open burners, but they are outside the scope of what I'm willing to work with.

That said, I do take exception to the last seven words of the quote. As soon as you build something foolproof, they make a better fool.

 

[murphyslaw]

please dont take this the wrong way but if you were really completely content with what you have then why are you reading this thread in the automated brewing section?... just saying..

I don't usually browse that way. I mostly use the "timeline" on the app or the "new posts" on the website.

With hobbies its often normal for people to want "better equipment" to interact with or mix it up... Its part of what makes the Hobby enjoyable for many.. and for a good portion of people the equipment is more fun than the actual brewing aspect.

Sure, that's what I meant when I said I enjoyed the DIY aspect of the hobby, but wanted to focus on the beer and not the equipment now. I think I enjoyed the tinkering and upgrading as much as I did the beer. But now I'm married with two young kids and I wanted to simplify things. Just sharing my experience for the OP.

 

[GrassBrewer]

I think automation means different things to different people.

Fully automated to me means I drop the grains, hops, yeast and any other additions into their respective holes and push a button. I then end up with beer at a tap handle. It would be a lot of work, but it isn't impossible, just really expensive. Am I going to do this? no way.

Pro brewer or commercial brewers have different problems as mentioned. From what I have read about pro brewing, any 1-2bbl system that is made quickly becomes a pilot system when the brewery needs to expand. At that point, when you scale up, you can't use electric anymore. You need to use steam jackets tied to a boiler.

Doing steam jackets or some other thing makes things more complicated from a automation point of view, and also a safety point of view.

Some people like brewing and the steps. I suppose I lean more to doing the design of the systems. Probably the same reason my computer has aftermarket pumps, radiators, and water blocks vs. the cooling mechanisms that come with the parts I'm buying.

If people tailor their systems to their own needs, I think they will be much happier than using a carbon copy of someone else's design or doing something that a pro brewer is doing.

 

[GParkins]

If people tailor their systems to their own needs, I think they will be much happier than using a carbon copy of someone else's design or doing something that a pro brewer is doing.

Yes, but the guy that developed the original system doesn't get the godlike feeling that five thousand people are following in his footsteps!!

Forge your path, have fun with it, and be safe!

 

[BrunDog]

If people tailor their systems to their own needs, I think they will be much happier than using a carbon copy of someone else's design or doing something that a pro brewer is doing.

In some cases yes and in some, no. For some, no. If you get satisfaction out of designing building, debugging, and tuning your own stuff, then yes. But automation takes a lot of work, so if you are building your own, know that you may end up putting in much more effort than you initially planned, which can lead to stalled and/or significantly more expensive results.

 

[augiedoggy]

And then theres the never ending desire to keep improving things for some,even when things work great.

 

[Inspire]

I just want to automate so I don't stand there looking at my kettles all day

 

[augiedoggy]

I just want to automate so I don't stand there looking at my kettles all day

but then whats the point of all that shiny bling if not to stare at it while brewing

 

[TenaCJed]

I just came across this post, have not been on a lot lately looking at new posts. I am also in IT, used to support Windows Servers, now run a Customer Support desk supporting remote customers. IT hardware \ software, I am comfortable. However all of the electrical components, not so much.

I had found myself with a similar dilemma right when BruControl came out. I was looking at doing RIMS with two pumps and temp probes. I was going to go the standard route of PID with SSR. I was already reviewing several forum posts and wiring diagrams, augiedoggy and BrunDog were common threads that I kept going back to. This is what lead me to discover BruControl shortly after it was released. My interest was very high immediately. I loved the interface, full customizability, automate as little or as much as you want, and finally the scripting component. Did I mention the scripting component! Now to be fair in my day job, I do a lot of scripting to automate a variety of things. Now obviously the scripting language is going to be different, but this aspect of the software appealed to me significantly.

It took me a while to get everything wired up, I was obviously concerned doing it that it would be safe. I will tell you that it was not as bad as I thought it would be. Make sure you review other popular threads and ask questions! Both augie and brundog have been great at helping the community, to include myself!

I have not finalized my build yet, but I have done a brewday already with it. I only have minor items to complete like screw and silicon outside components to the box and tighten all the wiring down. I did my setup to be portable as I do not have a dedicated brew area. I have 3 24V DC pumps, 2 flow sensors, 2 24V DC ball valves, 3 RTD probes, one RIMS tube, and added some manually controlled 3 way ball valves. I went with the recommended MEGA controller, network shield, standard recommended SSR, 24V DC power relay, larger than needed 24V DC power supply, 24V to 12V converter, BrunDogs RTD probe board, and some MOSFEts.

My first brew and my current setup has now scripting done yet, it was all manually controlled. I cannot say it enough, I love BruControl! Maybe it is the IT side of me, and being able to get some of that into the brew side. I cannot wait to start getting the script side going and to automate processes and automate alerts and auto shutdown processes!

The one last thing I want to do is some type of level sensor \ pressure sensor for the brew kettle. I am patiently waiting on something new the BrunDog is going to test, or is in the process of testing for that!

Good luck to you in whatever direction you decide to go! There are several people on the forum that will be more than happy to help.

 

[GParkins]

@TenaCJed Pics, or it never happened!!

 

[TenaCJed]

@GParkins I knew that was going to be coming! I did not take many pics during the build process, but I do have some from my last brew day. I have been meaning to setup a build thread, just have not gotten to it yet.

 

[BrunDog]

I appreciate the feedback @TenaCJed. Humbled!

 

[bheinecke]

... Are people building systems that just require the grain added and come back later to it in the fermenter without supervision? Cheers

I'm going to go out on a limb and say yes. Mine stops short of transferring to the fermenter but leaves the cooled wort in the BK.

I get it. The more I dig in, the more it seems the barriers are perceived rather than actual, and more due to jargon and a lack of knowledge base on my part than any actual difficulty. It is just a matter of me taking the time to unpack it all, draw out some plans/schematics, and go from there. Another future project.

Pick something small (but meaningful to you) and get started. You'll likely see other barriers fall along the way.

I started with arduino just wanting to control mash temps. I read and read and read about Arduno & raspPi trying to figure out which way to go and wasn't able to make heads/tails of most of my reading. Ended up buying an arduino starter kit and things just started to click as I played with it. I automated sub-processes (like open a valve to... or turn on the heater when....). Before I knew it I had automated every sub-process and just had to tie them together into a single program. Arduino was my first step into writing code outside of some simple vba (excel).

Don't waste too much time trying to understand the instructions. You'll likely learn faster but trying.

YOU CAN DO IT!!

 

[popquizkid]

Just curious OP - what route did you go with? Stumbled across this thread and thought it was interesting as this is exactly my current dilemma as I plan and research an electric brewery build.

Long term my goal is to use Brucontrol on the hot and cold side. I currently brew 6 gallon batches outside with propane. In the past year I have implemented some low oxygen brewing practices. I do enterprise IT systems implementations for a living so the software / scripting side of things is very easy for me to pick up. While I took one course on the use of electronics in communications way back when (audio, radio broadcast, etc) it has been a while and my experience is pretty limited to building a controller for my kegerator using an STC-1000 control box and my own stir plate. I love making my own stuff but I have young kids, house, etc and my time is limited and I want to get brewing inside.

My goals are this:

1. Convert to electric and move inside to my basement sooner rather than later. I have an unused 50a circuit in my basement that used to be used for an electric stove. It would be much easier to brew at night when kids are asleep and during bad weather, etc.

2. New kettle and mashtun which allow for larger batches, flexibility, and continued expansion of low oxygen practices in my brewing (mash underlet, co2/n2 vessel purge, stainless chilling)

3. Modification of fermentation setup to allow for larger batches (possible multiple fermenters at once eventually)

4. Automation (future)


I am pretty convinced that I want to go with two vessels with a RIMS tube. It seems to combine flexibility of mashes (can underlet, step mash, no sparge, or sparge if I want) with only two vessels. I will probably go with the Stout purpose built low oxygen vessels. They are pricey but if I go 20g on both I think they will last me for years and years. The area where I am struggling to make a decision is on the controller side of things. I know eventually I want to go with Brucontrol, but I have so many other things to work on/figure out in my setup that it seems a little overwhelming. I am making a big jump from my current single pot, no pump, very manual system. It seems like a bit much to build the controller from the ground up while trying to figure all the rest out. I don't want automation for the near future as this is my first electric multi-vessel system and it feels like I should focus on getting the kettles setup and everything else tuned in before building a controller. I will better know what I want, etc. Does that make sense?

I was thinking that option #3 (Hosehead Controller for under 500) would be a good middle ground. It is very affordable for a 50a 2 element controller. Anyone see any major drawbacks with this controller? While limited on the automation front it will allow me to get everything else the way I want it before bringing in the custom built BruControl box a year or two later. I also need to build out some ventilation etc and it just gives me less to figure out right now so to speak. By then I will better know what I want. My thought it to bring BruControl in on the fermentation side first since I need to do expansion there then add BruControl automation on the hot side a few years down the road.

 

[TexasWine]

@popquizkid, PM incoming. I've got exactly what you're looking for from a controller standpoint.

 

[swimIan]

Do Brucontrol now... a rpi based system worked for me but just didn't tick everything off the lost. If you get it all now you wont spend the money twice. p.s. my initial Brucontrol setup is not fully automated.

 

[popquizkid]

Do Brucontrol now... a rpi based system worked for me but just didn't tick everything off the lost. If you get it all now you wont spend the money twice. p.s. my initial Brucontrol setup is not fully automated.

What specifically did the rpi system not do well that BruControl does? I am mostly looking at automating mash steps only at this point.

 

[swimIan]

It is more flexible and allows a broader range of accessories for the future. It is supported by a company instead of a group of individuals. They do similar things and either will work. The future options sold me.

Automating mash temps... you only need a PID Or EZBOIL controller.

 

[popquizkid]

It is more flexible and allows a broader range of accessories for the future. It is supported by a company instead of a group of individuals. They do similar things and either will work. The future options sold me.

Automating mash temps... you only need a PID Or EZBOIL controller.

The mash temp is my requirement for the initial build. I am aware that a PID/EZBOIL will handle that, but it seems so locked in and inflexible to go with a hardware solution if you are planning for any type of future expansion. As a software guy I don't like that approach. I expect liquid transfer, etc to rather manual until I get the system dialed in and brew on it for a bit. But I want to expand out the automation capabilities after that in a year or so.

 

[Radboud]

When going the software route you need to be prepared for stuff (SD card etc) breaking mid-brew and have a plan B. It really sucks having to reinstall all your software while already in the brewing process. This is what put me off CPB.

 

[clearwaterbrewer]

buy as much of your hardware to do both cbpi and BruControl, active high relay boards, DS18B20's, etc.. start with the CBPi with a PiZeroW for $10, and if it does not meet your needs, you still have learned, can get the arduinos and bc software and the most you are out is $10 if you do it straight from the board and $50 if you get an add-on board... heck, make the CBPi panel like you were goign to sell it to a friend, and if you don;t like it, do just that... you can always get your parts value out of it...