Upgrading to an all electric brewing system

[driekus]

I am looking to upgrade to an all electric system. Currently I have all grain system powered by propane, all manual with no temperature control. I typically brew 5 gallon batches and would like a HERMS system. Buying a pre-made system is not an option Iam considering. I am comfortable with electrical wiring and electronics in general having built a 3D printer from scratch. Some of the options I am considering:

Brucontrol: To my eyes it looks pretty complicated but am open to feedback if I am missing something. I am also concerned whether it is still being actively developed
CraftBeerPi: Looks similar than Brucontrol but there have been very few updates in the past few years
Skrilnetz: Looks quite simple and have no concern being able to build it
electricBrewery: More complicated and costly than the Skrilnetz. Not sure what benefits it has over the Skrilnetz version.

I have been leaning toward Brucontrol but interested in others experience on how easy it was to assemble and program and whether there are tutorials to assist in the setup. Open to feedback that this is overkill for a 5 gallon hobby brewer.

Interested in feedback, particularly those who have used one or more of these options.

 

[Double_D]

I built a modified version of Kal's electric brewery. I bought a controller from High Gravity (I'm not good with wiring). But use it to control a set up that makes ten gallons at a time. If you can build a control box with PIDs, they're more it less going to be the same. I liked Kal's because it linked to products. But it has been a good while since I built my brew stand. Just assuming the links and everything are still there.

 

[Bobby_M]

First, I'd highly recommend a single vessel electric BIAB.

Second, even if you ignore that advice and still build a HERMS system, either way I recommend you build the controller with Auber DSPR-320. It would only be one of those for the BIAB but if you do the HERMS, the DSPR-320 would be for the HLT and a simpler DSPR-120 would be fine for the boil kettle. These controllers negate a lot of the bulk and complexity of the electric brewery type panels by putting timers and alarms directly in the 1/16th DIN package.

 

[Double_D]

I have a 3 vessel set up. Biab isn't your only "best" option. I use temp probes in the hlt and mash tun and can control the boil kettle with a rheostat that would be included in Kal's instructions, but comes standard on the High Gravity controller. Powering and running pumps for the herms set up also come built in with both controller options I've suggested.

 

[Bobby_M]

I have a 3 vessel set up. Biab isn't your only "best" option. I use temp probes in the hlt and mash tun and can control the boil kettle with a rheostat that would be included in Kal's instructions, but comes standard on the High Gravity controller. Powering and running pumps for the herms set up also come built in with both controller options I've suggested.

Please don't take it as a personal insult. I do think eBIAB is the best so that's what I suggested. I'm aware everyone has their own goals and opinions but that's what's so great about this forum.

 

[SonomaBrewer]

A different perspectice from someone who went the other direction.

6 months ago I switched from using a great single vessel Spike eBIAB setup to an electric 3v HERMS, an Electric Brewery configuration.

Does it take more time to brew on the 3v? To clean? To dial in the system? Was it more expensive? Yes on all accounts. But I get a lot more precision and control in return, and I think I'm able to make better beer. I enjoy the process more. Most importantly, I get to exert more "craft" in craft beer brewing.

To the original point of the OP though, I have not taken the next step to use BruControl or any other automation system. Doubt I will - though there is the theoretic possibility of more precision and consistency, I am disinclined to shift from the role of craftsman to industrialist. It would suck away the joy of brewing. There are more ways for things to go wrong, and fewer opportunities to exercise my own individual style and technique.

Just my $0.01 (adjusted from $0.02 to account for recent inflation), and to each his own.

 

[Bobby_M]

I think we skewed hard on a debate about multi vessel vs. BIAB and it's my fault. Sorry about that. It's a discussion for another day.

I'll be more helpful to the OP's original question...

Having built a several controllers for myself and customers, as well as having sold a lot of the off the shelf solutions, I hope I have decent perspective. I have included software based control in some of my experimental controllers such as the Brew-Boss board and app. I've also had a few of the commercial offerings that integrated BrewPi control.

Frankly, I never really took to the GUI and I've had enough situations where the system crashed in the middle of a brew day and went back to purpose built hardware like the Auber DSPR series of 1/16th DIN brains no matter what metal box it happens to be in. If programming is part of your hobby, then I could see the attraction but if just brewing beer is the goal, intuitive hardware that just works is better.

 

[Deadalus]

I bought an unfinished Skrilnetz panel and I did the wiring on it, the components were already in place. It's a more simplified panel than the ElectricBrewery and I have never felt I was missing anything compared to that design at that time. It has two PIDs, but the MLT PID only monitors the temperature. I'm not sure whether it was needed to have a PID exactly but perhaps size, cost and simplicity were why it is used. The BK is run off a simple power regulator that gets dialed to a percentage. I've thought about updating the HLT PID to an Auber, I think the DSPR-320 is the one I was looking at that @Bobby_M mentioned. It allows for programmable steps. I had been wondering if that could also control the BK but hadn't investigated it completely. Bobby_M suggesting a second controller seems to indicate that's a no. I do think I will replace the HLT PID at some point in the next year, particularly if I can just swap it in without major reorganization.

I've read a bit about getting to a more programmable system. There's a learning curve there and it requires time that I haven't been able to devote to learning what is needed. The 3 vessel 2 pump system that I have is pretty efficient. Moving from step to step is pretty quick since I have 30 amps of power to work with and I am inside in a dedicated brewing space. My system usings hoses with quick disconnects. To me it seems that I would want to have a hard piped system before I would go to something computerized. Then I would need automated valves so the cost starts to climb and what might I be gaining? The DSPR-320 would be nice though to get the mash schedule going. Otherwise, the system is pretty streamlined as it is. The PID is anticipatory and controls the temperature, the pumps move the liquids around, and everything is where it needs to be to start with. It would certainly be interesting to build something more advanced and to work with it. It is a hobby afterall.

 

[Neldog0]

I am looking to upgrade to an all electric system. Currently I have all grain system powered by propane, all manual with no temperature control. I typically brew 5 gallon batches and would like a HERMS system. Buying a pre-made system is not an option Iam considering. I am comfortable with electrical wiring and electronics in general having built a 3D printer from scratch. Some of the options I am considering:

Brucontrol: To my eyes it looks pretty complicated but am open to feedback if I am missing something. I am also concerned whether it is still being actively developed
CraftBeerPi: Looks similar than Brucontrol but there have been very few updates in the past few years
Skrilnetz: Looks quite simple and have no concern being able to build it
electricBrewery: More complicated and costly than the Skrilnetz. Not sure what benefits it has over the Skrilnetz version.

I have been leaning toward Brucontrol but interested in others experience on how easy it was to assemble and program and whether there are tutorials to assist in the setup. Open to feedback that this is overkill for a 5 gallon hobby brewer.

Interested in feedback, particularly those who have used one or more of these options.

BIAB is a good option. Very simple to learn. The other way is an all in one all grain electric brew system. There are a number of them just make sure you get a 220v version.

 

[Broken Crow]

Putting aside BIAB vs 3V, I've noted that your question is primarily about the control system. Given that you've built your own 3D printer, I take it that DIYing hybrid digital/mechanical systems is one of the main things that floats your boat so please come back and share with us your entire set of goals in building out a brew rig. If it helps; I came late to homebrewing because I had a very wide skill set that always had me involved in at least a dozen concurrent projects I gave higher priority to, thus never had the time. In 2014 I was catastrophically injured on the job and disabled so I now had the time and in Canada that also meant I was consigned to a remaining life of near-poverty and could no longer afford good beer....also; brain-injured and though I can remember doing many complex technical and skilled tasks, I can no longer comprehend them, enter: neuro-plasticity: I chose to build my own brewing setup in equal parts: to have good affordable bear, to re-learn basic structural, electrical, plumbing, chemistry/culinary skills and try to regrow and reconnect as many of the severed axons as possible...and it's worked to a large degree. Sorry for going into so much detail, but I just wanted to share that for some of us on here, the brewing journey is just as much about building equipment as it is about having a fully rewarding drink.

 

[DonT]

Auber has panel kits for HERMS, this is what I bought when I assembled my herms system.

 

[FunCat1828]

I think it all comes down to how automated you want to get in your brewery. Some of the things people have done with Brucontrol blow my mind and you can't really achieve it with other solutions. Do you want to be able to programmatically control everything in your brew day, or do you just want control over your MASH temps? Does it fall somewhere in the middle?

Personally I chose to start the build of a Brucontrol panel because it gives me flexibility to automate more as I want to and I can expand it to fermentation control, Sous Vide, meat smoking etc if I want to. Is it overkill for the hobby? Probably, but I enjoy both the brewing and the building of solutions so it's a fit for me. I also really want to automate the cleaning cycle as much as I can, as I really don't enjoy that part of the hobby.

As for active development for Brucontrol, I reached out to BrunDog at [email protected] and aired similar concerns before recently moving forward. He promptly got back to me, answered questions I had and based on that exchange and honestly the amount of goodwill I feel he should be awarded for what he has already given the community I chose to take a leap of faith and purchased some components for my build from him along with the software, which licensing was also promptly provided.

Bobby's advice is also really sound and he should equally also have a lot of goodwill in the community, really just comes down to different style's of brewers to be honest. Finding what works for you is the key.

Honestly only you can decide what is enough control and automation for you in your brewing process. The most flexible option available for what I wanted was IMHO BruControl. There are certainly different solutions that will give you great control and also brew great beer.

 

[driekus]

Thank you all for the input. I was not expecting so many replies.

On the BIAB question, I have been using 3 vessel systems for twenty years. I do like the control and versatility that they offer. I was looking at the upgrade to HERMS and introduce better temperature control than infusion mashing and easier step mashing. I may have a romanticized view of 3 vessel systems and how they are more traditional so in no way knocking the BIAB.

As a bit of background as to my brewing. I brew a wide selection of beers from IPAs through to high alcohol imperial stouts at 14% and a lot of mixed fermentation. I also do a lot of odd brewing experiments having both a carbohydrate chemistry and microbiology background. I also work at a municipal water treatment laboratory but been off the bench for a long time. I have mixed fermented (not infused) with cordycep mushroom mycelium as an example. I promise at some point to post about the mushroom experiments in case there are people interested. Most of my experimentation are with ingredients and micro-organisms.

The more I look at the replies the BruControl may not be the best fit for me as it may be too automated if that makes sense. I can see how the additional features have appeal though.
I really appreciate the mention of the Auber kit as I was not aware of it before. The ability to buy a kit at a reasonable price is very enticing. It does include the DSPR controllers mentioned above by Bobby. One thing that doesnt make sense to me is the two probes for the mash temperature. Can anyone give any insight as to why this is the case?

I will do some more digging and look what projects have been done with Bru Control as I may change my mind. I have a geekish personality

 

[Cameronl]

My build is based on the Skrilnetz plan. It's simple and does what I need. I use a PID to control the HLT and a simple rheostat controller for the boil with a switch to go from one to the other (can't use both at the same time, so I don't worry about overloaded my 30amp outlet). I didn't add 120 outlets to the controller for the pumps, they just plug into a seperate power strip. I'm a rank amatuer with electrical work, but have done enough of it around the house to be comfortable. So far it has worked flawlessly.

 

[DuncB]

Most AIO or single vessel systems are used with another boiler to make the sparge water!

 

[FunCat1828]

The more I look at the replies the BruControl may not be the best fit for me as it may be too automated if that makes sense. I can see how the additional features have appeal though.

So really only want to address this comment, as maybe my response prompted that.
The beauty of BruControl is it can be as automated or not automated as you want it to be, but it can adapt as you want to change your processes. That flexibility is why I opted to go this route.
My initial use will actually be fairly simplistic to replace the controller I currently have. I'll be manually setting the setpoints and manually turning the pumps on and off to start with. Eventually I will get to automating a lot more of my process, but that's the journey for me.

Here's an example of something advanced it can do though. Automatic grain delivery.

 

[Bobby_M]

Most AIO or single vessel systems are used with another boiler to make the sparge water!

Most? I know about 25 people in my club that have single vessel brew systems and not a single one of them sparge anything. It must be a local thing.

 

[Exception13]

It must be a local thing.

Chuckle. If local means eastern North America, then yes. Haven't sparged since I switched to single vessel.

 

[DonT]

. One thing that doesnt make sense to me is the two probes for the mash temperature. Can anyone give any insight as to why this is the case?

Wort temp flowing into the MLT and wort temp flowing out. I pay more attention to out flow.

 

[ClaudiusB]

I think it all comes down to how automated you want to get in your brewery. Some of the things people have done with Brucontrol blow my mind and you can't really achieve it with other solutions. Do you want to be able to programmatically control everything in your brew day, or do you just want control over your MASH temps? Does it fall somewhere in the middle?

Personally I chose to start the build of a Brucontrol panel because it gives me flexibility to automate more as I want to and I can expand it to fermentation control, Sous Vide, meat smoking etc if I want to. Is it overkill for the hobby? Probably, but I enjoy both the brewing and the building of solutions so it's a fit for me. I also really want to automate the cleaning cycle as much as I can, as I really don't enjoy that part of the hobby.

As for active development for Brucontrol, I reached out to BrunDog at [email protected] and aired similar concerns before recently moving forward. He promptly got back to me, answered questions I had and based on that exchange and honestly the amount of goodwill I feel he should be awarded for what he has already given the community I chose to take a leap of faith and purchased some components for my build from him along with the software, which licensing was also promptly provided.

Bobby's advice is also really sound and he should equally also have a lot of goodwill in the community, really just comes down to different style's of brewers to be honest. Finding what works for you is the key.

Honestly only you can decide what is enough control and automation for you in your brewing process. The most flexible option available for what I wanted was IMHO BruControl. There are certainly different solutions that will give you great control and also brew great beer.

"Some of the things people have done with Brucontrol blow my mind and you can't really achieve it with other solutions." What makes you so sure other solutions can't do the same things?

 

[homebeerbrewer]

I use a BCS-462 with PIDs for my 3V system. (Link) It’s an older model. The current one is a BCS-482. I say “current”, since I haven’t seen anything new in a few years. But, it works for me.

I have it connected to my WiFi, so I use my iPad to control it on brew day.

 

[FunCat1828]

"Some of the things people have done with Brucontrol blow my mind and you can't really achieve it with other solutions." What makes you so sure other solutions can't do the same things?

I'm not certain other's can't achieve the same, I've yet to see similar examples of it in the wild once you start getting to the upper level of automation.

My research led me to the following conclusions for my personal use case:

A PID based controller does not have the ability to automate to this level.
A BCS control panel can certainly automate, but get's limited at some point by the I/O aspect.
CraftBeerPi looks to be able to do a lot of automation as well, but I am not a fan of using a Raspberry Pi for this type of workload. Also limited recent updates.
BruControl can do all of the above, isn't limited by the I/O and doesn't utilize a Raspberry Pi, but does require a windows based machine to operate and also has the risk of limited updates & support moving forward.

Are there other projects out there that I'm missing that offer what BruControl does?

 

[Broken Crow]

"Some of the things people have done with Brucontrol blow my mind and you can't really achieve it with other solutions." What makes you so sure other solutions can't do the same things?

Not arguing with you, I'm a PID user and Auber DSR320 advocate myself as it can do all I want from it. Before this thread goes up in flames I'll mention the "more automation" feature I'm intrigued by that PID's just can't do:
Solonoid Valves.
I'm not interested in that much automation, but the 'other' non-PID digital based systems are the only way to get that. It's just more options for the OP to consider.

 

[ClaudiusB]

Not arguing with you, I'm a PID user and Auber DSR320 advocate myself as it can do all I want from it. Before this thread goes up in flames I'll mention the "more automation" feature I'm intrigued by that PID's just can't do:
Solonoid Valves.
I'm not interested in that much automation, but the 'other' non-PID digital based systems are the only way to get that. It's just more options for the OP to consider.

"I'm a PID user" I use hardware and software PIDs too. Each station has a hardware PID in case the automation I use fails a station. My physical PIDs and many others on the market can be used to do step mashes.

"PID's just can't do: Solonoid Valves." They do, maybe not multiple valves at the same time. It all depends on the brand and model you are using. My PIDs can control each fermenter's glycol cooling solenoid and communicate with my brewing control system.
I have multiple hardware PIDs in use. Here is a sample of three.

 

[ClaudiusB]

I'm not certain other's can't achieve the same, I've yet to see similar examples of it in the wild once you start getting to the upper level of automation.

My research led me to the following conclusions for my personal use case:

A PID based controller does not have the ability to automate to this level.
A BCS control panel can certainly automate, but get's limited at some point by the I/O aspect.
CraftBeerPi looks to be able to do a lot of automation as well, but I am not a fan of using a Raspberry Pi for this type of workload. Also limited recent updates.
BruControl can do all of the above, isn't limited by the I/O and doesn't utilize a Raspberry Pi, but does require a windows based machine to operate and also has the risk of limited updates & support moving forward.

Are there other projects out there that I'm missing that offer what BruControl does?

Allen Bradley, Siemens, Automation Direct, Modicon, and many other systems on the market have automated the world for years. BrewControl gives you more for every dollar spent than all the other systems on the market. My system is powered by multiple Automation Direct systems used as distributed logic systems to keep long wire runs to a minimum.

 

[Broken Crow]

"I'm a PID user" I use hardware and software PIDs too. Each station has a hardware PID in case the automation I use fails a station. My physical PIDs and many others on the market can be used to do step mashes.

"PID's just can't do: Solonoid Valves." They do, maybe not multiple valves at the same time. It all depends on the brand and model you are using. My PIDs can control each fermenter's glycol cooling solenoid and communicate with my brewing control system.
I have multiple hardware PIDs in use. Here is a sample of three.

Thanks! I had always thought of either a system of unified individual units under software control vs. individual control via PID's on each unit... Is there any way to connect and unify them all to a single screen on a device? Honestly not arguing..I'd actually be excited to learn you could do that and possibly modify my own future brew-rig plans. All I've gathered from wieghing PID vs BCS or pi/homebrew comprehensive digital systems left me with the impression that an entirely automated system was unachievable with solely PID's

 

[ClaudiusB]

Thanks! I had always thought of either a system of unified individual units under software control vs. individual control via PID's on each unit... Is there any way to connect and unify them all to a single screen on a device? Honestly not arguing..I'd actually be excited to learn you could do that and possibly modify my own future brew-rig plans. All I've gathered from wieghing PID vs BCS or pi/homebrew comprehensive digital systems left me with the impression that an entirely automated system was unachievable with solely PID's

"Is there any way to connect and unify them all to a single screen on a device?" AutomationDirect's Solo controller lets you monitor multiple devices on a PC screen and make changes to all parameters with free software.
Solo monitoring software, Solo temp controllers