Electric/Automated Brewery Dilemma

[shayes2791]

I get your point, and it makes sense, but every time I have sat down and tried to read through the documentation on BruControl (or BCS-462), my eyes glaze over and I have no real idea what the heck I am looking at. Whether actual or imagined, there seems to be a real barrier to entry there.

The OP here is apprehensive and works in IT, and seems to be running into the same issue as I am. As for me, I know enough coding/scripting to be dangerous (mostly Excel-based vbscript and application inter-op for dashboards and data reporting in mortgage servicing) (and know that I really don't know anything practical), but also know that I can probably get through anything if I set my mind to it. I am comfortable with wiring, electricity, working on cars, woodworking, I have built my last three computers from the ground up, and I like doing things once, the right way, even if it costs more. In short, if you are aiming for any consumer-level buyer, I think I am probably it.

My next big brewing purchase is an EZ-Boil and related paraphernalia for recirculating BIAB in a keggle-based system on a 5500w element using a GFCI breaker @ 50A (after I get my garage wiring upgraded from single circuit 20A ...).

From what I can tell, you have built something really cool here, and with a lot of capability, that would probably be everything I want and more, but I do not have the specific knowledge necessary to do anything with it. I wish you the best with it, and I hope you could do something to change my mind, but after spending an hour or so reading through your documentation, I am no closer to building anything.

You are in the exact same boat as me in every aspect as me including building my own computers, vb, woodworking etc. I don't feel so stupid now

 

[mirthfuldragon]

I want to be fully transparent and say there is a currently a strong element of DIY required with this offering. [...] for those who don’t have any experience with electronics design/selection/building, this may not YET be the system for you.

I get it. The more I dig in, the more it seems the barriers are perceived rather than actual, and more due to jargon and a lack of knowledge base on my part than any actual difficulty. It is just a matter of me taking the time to unpack it all, draw out some plans/schematics, and go from there. Another future project.

 

[shayes2791]

I don't think it is overcomplicated either but I was hoping it could be a little easier just seeing somebody do theirs. You can see a few examples of other non arduino type controllers in video and documentation. I think this gives everybody a base to go from and then change for their needs. I am not concerned or intimidated by diy as I do diy for most things. I will be attempting this at some point soon, but sure I'll have questions.

 

[Exception13]

Would it be helpful if we put together:

1. Tech notes on how to build a complete brewery controller?
2. Video of the above?
3. A “quick start” guide beyond the one in the manual?
4. Anything else?

Again, appreciate the feedback - it’s honest so it’s good!

Hey BrunDog,

In a word.... yup.

As you know, I'm starting my learning curve with BruControl. The information on brucontrol.com is pretty good, but for me there is quite a large jump from, "Here it is and you can build it." to, "Hey, look at my BruControl system. I built it myself!" The software is documented quite well in the user manual. I can see how a touchscreen user interface replaces the front door of a Kal-style panel. I like the fact that it doesn't just interface with the brewing equipment, but can control the fermentation equipment and even the serving fridges... kind of a mashup of BrewPi-Fermentrack-Ranco-iTaps, maybe. But the hardware side (as far as what you need and how to mount it in a panel), isn't..

So, yup to the tech notes and the video. Yup to the quickstart. A step-by-step of the initial install would be helpful. Currently, the manual has the initial install and setup in two different places - at least I was flipping (sorry... scrolling) back and forth.

And you can expect an email from me regarding a trial licence.... soon as I get the damned ethernet shield to be recognized by my router.

Cheers!

Chris

 

[GParkins]

@mirthfuldragon and @shayes2791, I was recently at the same point on the BruControl learning curve that you seem to be right now. I'm just now putting the finishing touches on my system, and so far, everything seems as anticipated. My background is a little more electrical in nature, so I can't offer much scripting help. That said, I was able to muddle through a simple 10-line script and have it work correctly.

If either of you want a little extra explanation, or don't feel like you're "getting it," please feel free to use me as a resource as well. I can definitely help with power distribution and the safety side of design and assembly. I've gotten a lot of help from @BrunDog during the development of my system, so I'm happy to pass along whatever I can.

 

[shayes2791]

@mirthfuldragon and @shayes2791, I was recently at the same point on the BruControl learning curve that you seem to be right now. I'm just now putting the finishing touches on my system, and so far, everything seems as anticipated. My background is a little more electrical in nature, so I can't offer much scripting help. That said, I was able to muddle through a simple 10-line script and have it work correctly.

If either of you want a little extra explanation, or don't feel like you're "getting it," please feel free to use me as a resource as well. I can definitely help with power distribution and the safety side of design and assembly. I've gotten a lot of help from @BrunDog during the development of my system, so I'm happy to pass along whatever I can.

I am sure we will definitely ask questions. I am not concerned about the scripting piece in my instance. I work with code a good bit although not like years ago.

I see many talking about using 1 wire but don't see how that works or many using it. The temp controls in concept doesn't sound difficult, but it does in practice and especially in picking components. Also, in brundogs doc it shows single ssr vs multiples in an array on a board. When do you use one over the other?
Thanks

 

[GParkins]

Also, in brundogs doc it shows single ssr vs multiples in an array on a board.

I think the "multiples in an array" in the @BrunDog examples are low-current dry contact relays, while the "single SSR" is for high-speed, high-volume switching of a higher current load. Typically, SSRs are used for heating elements, and are mounted on aluminum heat sinks, as they generate a lot of heat. Electromechanical dry contact relays can certainly be scaled to match the amperage of a heating element, but under PID and Duty Cycle control, they wind up switching many hundreds of times during a brew cycle. The solid state switching in an SSR can handle the constant switching in a way that electromechanical relays can't.

 

[BrunDog]

Agreed with @GParkins post above.

To take it further... The whole relay (and transistors and FETs for that matter) world can be very confoosing for sure. SSR’s (Solid State Relay), transistors, and FETs (Field Effect Transistors) have no moving parts and use electronics to perform switching. The upside is speed and very long term wear. The downside is heat generation as some of the current pass-through is hindered and these are typically one side switching only. These require very little current to switch and are therefore good for direct control from low power signals like those from computers or micro-controllers (e.g. Arduino).

Electromechanical or dry-contact relays are very efficient in their current pass-through but slow to switch and have a limited life due to contact wear. These can be easily found in multi-pole and dual-throw versions (both normally open and normally closed contacts). These typically use coils that generate some heat but not enough that requires cooling. These coils require more current than micros can provide but the “board” versions typically have front-end solid-state circuitry to reduce the current requirement and allow direct control from micros.

A SSR does not have to be a single puck style that we commonly use and they do come in multi-channel board versions such as https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06XH4RG5B/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

When selecting you need to evaluate both the relay’s switching requirements (voltage and current to make it switch) and it’s switching capacity (voltage and current that is getting switched) . The other items above also need be considered: speed, heat, #poles, etc.

 

[shayes2791]

Agreed with @GParkins post above.

To take it further... The whole relay (and transistors and FETs for that matter) world can be very confoosing for sure. SSR’s (Solid State Relay), transistors, and FETs (Field Effect Transistors) have no moving parts and use electronics to perform switching. The upside is speed and very long term wear. The downside is heat generation as some of the current pass-through is hindered and these are typically one side switching only. These require very little current to switch and are therefore good for direct control from low power signals like those from computers or micro-controllers (e.g. Arduino).

Electromechanical or dry-contact relays are very efficient in their current pass-through but slow to switch and have a limited life due to contact wear. These can be easily found in multi-pole and dual-throw versions (both normally open and normally closed contacts). These typically use coils that generate some heat but not enough that requires cooling. These coils require more current than micros can provide but the “board” versions typically have front-end solid-state circuitry to reduce the current requirement and allow direct control from micros.

A SSR does not have to be a single puck style that we commonly use and they do come in multi-channel board versions such as https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06XH4RG5B/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

When selecting you need to evaluate both the relay’s switching requirements (voltage and current to make it switch) and it’s switching capacity (voltage and current that is getting switched) . The other items above also need be considered: speed, heat, #poles, etc.

There must be something that makes the singe puck type better since most use them? What is wrong with the multiple channel type?

 

[BrunDog]

The single puck units typically handle high current. 5500W elements require ~25A. They are single because switching that much current generates a lot of heat. These SSRs entire baseplate has a large surface area to pull that heat out. The modular SSR board I listed above can only switch 2A per channel. They don’t require cooling so are very small.

 

[AkTom]

One of these days when I grow up... I’d like to get an electric setup. For now I’ll read along and pick up what I can.
Thanks for all the info.
Cheers

 

[shayes2791]

The single puck units typically handle high current. 5500W elements require ~25A. They are single because switching that much current generates a lot of heat. These SSRs entire baseplate has a large surface area to pull that heat out. The modular SSR board I listed above can only switch 2A per channel. They don’t require cooling so are very small.

Can you do away with a rims tube and just use the bk element for both recirculating and boil in 2 vessel? I know you have both and get it is better, but could i get away with 1 1650 element? Right now my kettles are 11 gal (44qt).

 

[GParkins]

Can you do away with a rims tube and just use the bk element for both recirculating and boil in 2 vessel? I know you have both and get it is better, but could i get away with 1 1650 element? Right now my kettles are 11 gal (44qt).

You might be able to get away with a smaller element for a RIMS tube (@BrunDog will know exactly), but for the BK in a 10-gallon batch, 5500W is an acceptable size. Might take a while to get the boil rolling, but it will maintain a boil just fine. I wouldn't recommend anything smaller. I'm pushing it with a 1/2-bbl HLT and BK. Might wind up going to 6500W eventually.

 

[AF1HomeBrew]

I've been using a BCS-460 www.embeddedcc.com for almost 10 yrs, and love it. This little box with it's temp probe(s), some relays w/heat sinks and you'd can do quite a bit immediately after wiring it up. They are coming out with a BCS-482 shortly with a faster processor. Another thing you should consider or factor in if you already haven't is some kind of brewstation that you have your equipment on so that you are not having to setup prior to each brewsession. Doing this right the first time will be very important. One of my favorite things about the BCS besides being able to program/regulate my brewsession via a web browser is the built in datalogging.

If I wasn't so invested over the years with the BCS and all the other equipment that I have, I'd definitely consider BrunDog's option (might still consider building one for the heck of it).

 

[mirthfuldragon]

After reviewing the schematics, what guides a decision on a relay/contactor v. a SSR? Specifically, I can see that your pump circuits are powered by 2A SSRs (1 and 2) where other accessory circuits are triggered via switches. Would a chugger pump on an SSR effectively throttle the pump flow? The follow-up question is how that effects the motor, since it seems the start/stop flow might be detrimental, but now that I think about it, since the motor already runs on 60hz (60 electrical cycles per second), letting the SSR drop is probably no different. I presume then that the relay-switched circuits are for things that do not tolerate variable elctric load (like electronics or valves?).

 

[GParkins]

After reviewing the schematics, what guides a decision on a relay/contactor v. a SSR? Specifically, I can see that your pump circuits are powered by 2A SSRs (1 and 2) where other accessory circuits are triggered via switches. Would a chugger pump on an SSR effectively throttle the pump flow? The follow-up question is how that effects the motor, since it seems the start/stop flow might be detrimental, but now that I think about it, since the motor already runs on 60hz (60 electrical cycles per second), letting the SSR drop is probably no different. I presume then that the relay-switched circuits are for things that do not tolerate variable elctric load (like electronics or valves?).

In a low-current application such as for a Chugger pump, use of an SSR looks to be guided by the frequency the circuit is tuned on/off. If you are attempting to reduce product flow by applying a Duty Cycle-type control on the pump, there would be thousands of cycles during a 60-minute continuous sparge, so an SSR is indicated. If you are regulating flow with a valve, and just turning the pump on to start the sparge, then turning it of at the end of the sparge 60 minutes later, a 5A electromechanical relay is indicated.

Do a little research and compare the number of cycles estimated in the MTBF figures for both types of relay. It's interesting to see the difference.

 

[BrunDog]

Can you do away with a rims tube and just use the bk element for both recirculating and boil in 2 vessel? I know you have both and get it is better, but could i get away with 1 1650 element? Right now my kettles are 11 gal (44qt).

You mean like a BrewEasy (vertical) combination or a Brutus (horizontal)?

These are definitely possible but if you want to sparge, the only way to do it is with cold water.

 

[shayes2791]

You mean like a BrewEasy (vertical) combination or a Brutus (horizontal)?

These are definitely possible but if you want to sparge, the only way to do it is with cold water.

Ok.... makes sense. Missing piece filled[emoji3] Thanks. I think my initial plan was not to sparge but now I definitely want the option. It seems the more I try to change my plan from your system, the more I actually want to model mine after yours.

 

[BrunDog]

If you were looking for a single element, step-up from BIAB, I think a cool single element design would be a Brutus type that is not full volume in the BK during mashing. Need just enough to cover the element and run it on capped power. Then manually sparge with cold or pre-warmed water while slowly draining to the BK. Two vessel, one element, one pump.

 

[shayes2791]

If you were looking for a single element, step-up from BIAB, I think a cool single element design would be a Brutus type that is not full volume in the BK during mashing. Need just enough to cover the element and run it on capped power. Then manually sparge with cold or pre-warmed water while slowly draining to the BK. Two vessel, one element, one pump.

That would work too. Now that I understand why you have the rims I would want that. I could always begin with your suggestion.

 

[shayes2791]

Is there a reason why hardly anybody isn't using 1 wire temperature monitoring or in their valve controls? I only saw some sites where they used them in their builds. Although 1 guy used them in his first build and chose rtd in subsequent build even though he loved using 1 wire. The only thing he stated was he thought he would have longevity with rtd even though he had no issues with 1 wire.

 

[BrunDog]

1-wire is good in out applications but isn't the most robust system. As a bus, communications is relatively slow and sensitive to noise.

No real reason not to use them... its your preference!

 

[MrBaloo]

I am in the same "I just need to get busy building something" Boat as well.. But first to finish the brewing room.... will post pics as soon as I get a lot of junk out of the way....

I first said I would build a Kal clone.. startign with the electric boil keggle so I can at least brew extract and add things as I went along to the full 3 vessel system. now I am thinking I start out Arduino and also add things as I move along that path..... sigh.....

 

[GrassBrewer]

Man, this is like the post I was going to make but didn't so I could research more.

I have been designing a fully automated system for a while now after brewing years with a fully manual system and have been going back and forth on how automated I want to be and the hardware/software I want to use.

My big issue is that I've worked a lot with PLCs before for work and I am an electrical engineer, so using a arduino to control high voltages is super weird for me (as in, normally for machine safety you need certified systems from UL or TUV, and Arduinos can't compete there). I know a lot of the SSRs and power supplies will be regulated, but you are still using non-safety rated control hardware and software.

On the other hand, I've never had to buy PLCs before. They are normally purchased for work and I don't think about cost really. I was thinking of getting an HMI with some PLCs, voltage regulates, Ethernet/router, etc. to create a nice little control box next to my brew setup, NEMA 12 of course. I'd probably go E-HERMs while I was at it. Totaling that up, that's pretty pricey. So, that makes the arduino or raspberry options more attractive now.

So I am a little torn now. Cost / Safety, etc. I know I want automation, at least enough to make sure my temperatures are correct. I don't mind moving some tubes around between steps.

 

[BrunDog]

Understood on the safety concerns. While an Arduino hardware solution does not have safety certifications, we are failrly confident in the practical safety of its utilization so long as appropriate design, component selection, and wiring/building standards are implemented. At the end of the day, every PLC runs its logic on an integrated circuit. How that circuit ultimately connects to high power devices is what matters. Assuming you are integrating and isolating appropriately, for example to dry contact relay board or SSR’s with opto-isolated front ends, incorporating proper grounding and overload protection, physically separating HV and LV components and wiring, etc. your control panel should be very safe in practical application.

No rig should ever be used unmonitored, but there are many users who have used Arduino, Raspberry Pi, etc. non-industrial level controllers with great success, despite often questionable build and component quality. And at the end of the day, the most industrial PLC will not fix poor control panel design or build quality!

If you wanted a more assured level of protection, you might like the reasonable PLCs offered by www.industrialshields.com.

 

[GrassBrewer]

Thanks Brun. Totally understand. It is part of the reason we use not just the right components, but use certified cabinet assembles for our machinery. I have had the unfortunate circumstance of having to sift through UL 508a. Does that make me an expert? no way.

I was actually looking at the CLICK series from automation direct. The software is free and uses PLC ladder logic, but you need to buy a lot of parts, HMIs, I/O expansion slots, routers, power supplies etc. I look to the raspberryPIs and the ardruino solutions as simplifications to this (and hard wired systems like the electricbrewery system).

I think I am slowly moving toward the idea of using non-industrial level equipment, but will need to play with designs some more.

I have a free enclosure I can use, but the backplate is only 14"x 9", so relatively small to fit a lot of what I am seeing in this thread.

 

[ClaudiusB]

Whats wrong with HBT, I didn't type pooyty.

I typed sh*****

 

[ClaudiusB]

And at the end of the day, the most industrial PLC will not fix poor control panel design or build quality!

You missed poor (******)programming.

 

[BrunDog]

Thanks Brun. Totally understand. It is part of the reason we use not just the right components, but use certified cabinet assembles for our machinery. I have had the unfortunate circumstance of having to sift through UL 508a. Does that make me an expert? no way.

I was actually looking at the CLICK series from automation direct. The software is free and uses PLC ladder logic, but you need to buy a lot of parts, HMIs, I/O expansion slots, routers, power supplies etc. I look to the raspberryPIs and the ardruino solutions as simplifications to this (and hard wired systems like the electricbrewery system).

I think I am slowly moving toward the idea of using non-industrial level equipment, but will need to play with designs some more.

I have a free enclosure I can use, but the backplate is only 14"x 9", so relatively small to fit a lot of what I am seeing in this thread.

Makes sense. No doubt PLCs or other controls can create powerful brewery automation, but you are tasked with building it all from zero. We created BruControl to provide all the basic tools, leveraging inexpensive, readily available hardware. The goal was to offer all the flexibility needed without the complicated options of PLCs, interfaces, expansion modules, HMI’s, etc.

Anyway, building is much of the fun. Enjoy the ride - it will be great whichever path you choose.

 

[GrassBrewer]

Building is more fun.

Can't wait to share once I get going. I didn't remember to chronicle my Keezer build at all.