can you make a beer with no barley, using wheat and oats?

[Jaybird]

how did you sparge it?

I would personally sparge it the same way I sparge a Corn Whiskey mash. A purpose built False Bottom and a Whirlpool Master paddle works like a charm..

Cheers
Jay

 

[bracconiere]

I would personally sparge it the same way I sparge a Corn Whiskey mash. A purpose built False Bottom and a Whirlpool Master paddle works like a charm..

Cheers
Jay

LOL, i'd use the false bottom for a double boiler in that case....

 

[Jaybird]

LOL, i'd use the false bottom for a double boiler in that case....

I'm a toss it all in kind of guy. But yeah that would work for sure.

Cheers
Jay

 

[VikeMan]

the enzymes are present in the grain (malted or un-malted). the extended mashing process and extended multiple rests at appropriate temps will activate the enzymes. This will not be as effective as using malted grain but it would work.

Unmalted barley contains very small amounts of Aplha Amylase at best. Germination is the signal to make more.

If you "mashed" unmalted barley by itself, most of the very meager amount of sugar you'd get would be from the small amount of sugar that was already present in the grain, not converted from starch in the "mash."

 

[bracconiere]

the enzymes are present in the grain (malted or un-malted). the extended mashing process and extended multiple rests at appropriate temps will activate the enzymes. This will not be as effective as using malted grain but it would work.

you would end up to long in the

 

[BrewerinBR]

Unmalted barley contains very small amounts of Aplha Amylase at best. Germination is the signal to make more.

If you "mashed" unmalted barley by itself, most of the very meager amount of sugar you'd get would be from the small amount of sugar that was already present in the grain, not converted from starch in the "mash."

I think if you could maintain temps long enough, you could convert some of the starch ... would malting it be a better choice? Yes of coarse. This is not something I would try, malted grains are readily available including wheat and rye. So making a beer entirely from wheat can be done ... same with rye. which was the original question.

 

[bracconiere]

I think if you could maintain temps long enough, you could convert some of the starch ... would malting it be a better choice? Yes of coarse. This is not something I would try, malted grains are readily available including wheat and rye. So making a beer entirely from wheat can be done ... same with rye. which was the original question.

"sour" dough wouldn't be a thing other wise.....

 

[VikeMan]

I think if you could maintain temps long enough, you could convert some of the starch ...

Yes, the little bit of enzymes could convert a little bit of starch. At a guess, at least an order of magnitude less conversion than with malted barley, because the enzymes will be used up long before the starch is.

 

[BrewerinBR]

Yes, the little bit of enzymes could convert a little bit of starch. At a guess, at least an order of magnitude less conversion than with malted barley, because the enzymes will be used up long before the starch is.

Indeed, this is why we use malted grains much more efficient.

 

[bracconiere]

yes you can brew a 100% beer with this...if we're trying to get back on topic....


https://www.morebeer.com/products/malt-viking-oat-lb-showroom.html
just keep in mind, you'll have to set the gap on your mill way tighter...

edit: and if you don't have your own mill...i doubt they'd do it for you! they'd just dump it in the bag next to their mill....or the equivalent....

 

[jerrylotto]

the enzymes are present in the grain (malted or un-malted). the extended mashing process and extended multiple rests at appropriate temps will activate the enzymes. This will not be as effective as using malted grain but it would work.

Thank for saying what I was TRYING to say!

 

[VikeMan]

the enzymes are present in the grain (malted or un-malted). the extended mashing process and extended multiple rests at appropriate temps will activate the enzymes. This will not be as effective as using malted grain but it would work.

Thank for saying what I was TRYING to say!

Just to be clear, this would not result in anything remotely close to full conversion (unless the "extended mashing process" included the actual malting process @AlexKay joked about), because unmalted barley does not contain the amounts of enzymes that malted barley does. But if you want a very weak Kvass-like beverage with lots of unconverted starches in it, Prost!

 

[Bobby_M]

It's weird how about half the posts in this thread are related to using unmalted grains and arguing if it's possible to get conversion. It's just not practical enough to spend this much energy in my opinion.

No you don't need barley.
Yes you can use any other cereal grains and about half of the total amount should be a malted variety if you want your life to be easy.

 

[grampamark]

“… because unmalted barley does not contain the amounts of enzymes that malted barley does.”

OK. My inner, insomniac, grain farmer has to respond to this statement made by @VikeMan.

Unmalted barley contains all of the enzymes which will be present in the malted barley (or wheat, rye, corn, rice, etc, etc, etc…) The malting process doesn’t create enzymes. It begins the process of germination, which makes the enzymes which are contained in the aleurone (the bran, or outer layer, of a wheat or rye kernel, or the hull, or husk, of a barley kernel) available to the endosperm, which is the starchy mass of cells which make up the bulk of a cereal grain kernel. Then, as soon as germination is established, malting short circuits the normal growth cycle of the grain by dehydrating the kernels to the point that plant growth stops, thus preserving the starches in the endosperm for conversion to fermentable sugars in the future.

In the field, the conversion process takes place very slowly, because the soil temperature is 100°F, or more, lower than normal mash temps. At the latitudes where most malt barley is produced the soil temp at planting time isn’t much above 40°F. That’s why the first leaf which comes through the soil doesn’t appear for more than a week after planting; sometimes, much later than that. But, conversion does take place, and the sugars thus produced feed the growing plant until a root system is established and the new, above ground, growth emerges. At that point, sunlight and rainfall (or irrigation), combined with the root system, provide the required moisture and nutrients to keep the plants growing to maturity.

So, in short, malting initiates the growth cycle, and does so more efficiently than nature by carefully controlling the conditions under which germination occurs. It then stops the growth as quickly as possible to preserve as much of the starches as possible before they can be converted. The process does not produce enzymes, it just puts the enzymes to work and then puts them to sleep so they can finish their work later.

 

[madscientist451]

Many brewers have made 100% Oat beer, so adding 50% wheat shouldn't be a problem, why not try it? Koyt, or Kuitbier, was brewed for centuries with Oats, Barley and Wheat, and at some point someone must have tried leaving out the barley:
https://www.fondazioneslowfood.com/en/ark-of-taste-slow-food/koyt-kuit-kuyt-beer/https://www.witteklavervier.nl/us/history/koyt-beer

 

[VikeMan]

Unmalted barley contains all of the enzymes which will be present in the malted barley (or wheat, rye, corn, rice, etc, etc, etc…) The malting process doesn’t create enzymes.

No sir, unmalted barley doesn't contain all the enzymes, and malting does create enzymes. Here are a few references. (Emphasis added.)

"The main objective of malting is to produce an ample supply of enzymes that degrade starch, proteins, and other components of grain."
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topic...tive of malting,and other components of grain.

"The seed of the barley and the embryo and aleurone layer are living. After the kernel absorbs water, gibberellin is excreted as a phytohormone from the germ. Furthermore, the signal of gibberellin leads to the production of enzymes, such as amylase, and to the synthesis of β‐glucanase to decompose starch."
https://www.intechopen.com/chapters/56077
"Enzymes are present in mature barley (Beta-amylase and carboxypetidases), finished malt (Alpha-amylase, limit dexrinase, proteases, glucanases, pentosanases) and yeast"
https://www.mbaa.com/districts/Ontario/Events/Documents/2014 MBAA Aleksandar Egi Malt Enzymes.pdf
“During malting, hydration of the kernel starts at the basal end. The embryo and husk absorb water more readily than the endosperm. As the embryo hydrates, it releases hormones (including gibberellins), which awaken the scutellum and aleurone layer, causing them to produce their own enzymes and begin breaking down the endosperm. This process of modification starts adjacent to the scutellum at the basal end and proceeds toward the distal end. As it reacts, the aleurone layer creates beta glucanases, protein proteases, alpha amylase, and glucoamylase.”
Malt, A Practical Guide from Field to Brewhouse, page 95. John Mallet, 2014

"The aleurone layer acts as a hotspot for enzyme synthesis during germination, when aleurone proteins are degraded and used to produce enzymes."
KU Leuven Certificate Course, Beer: The Science of Brewing, Module 2, Malt

"During steeping, water is taken up by barley kernels in three different phases:
PHASE 1: Water is taken up by the embryo and scutellum, initiating the production of amylases (mostly α- amylases), ribonucleases and phosphatases."
KU Leuven Certificate Course, Beer: The Science of Brewing, Module 2, Malt

 

[Bobby_M]

Now it's a matter of semantics. The moral of the story is that the malting process is what make the grain have diastatic power in the hands of the brewer. How it gets there is a very interesting topic but it's so far out of scope of the original question. It's like asking what the torque specs of a Chevy head bolt are and then arguing about how grade 8 bolts are manufactured.

 

[VikeMan]

Now it's a matter of semantics. The moral of the story is that the malting process is what make the grain have diastatic power in the hands of the brewer. How it gets there is a very interesting topic but it's so far out of scope of the original question. It's like asking what the torque specs of a Chevy head bolt are and then arguing about how grade 8 bolts are manufactured.

It certainly is off topic to the original question, but I disagree that it's a matter of semantics. To me, it's fundamental brewing knowledge. Once misleading statements are made (on topic or not), it's IMO everyone's duty to set the record straight. Otherwise, we end up with people thinking they can mash unmalted grains with an extra long mash (or something) and get the beer they're expecting. Had some things in this thread gone unchallenged, that's exactly what would have happened.

 

[bracconiere]

everyone's duty to set the record straight.

to be on-topic, or offtopic...? or just crack a joke about doodie..

@joeoberfoell what have you decided? are we going to get a report about your oat beer?

i don't think it was asked if you were thinking of trying 100% quaker oats or something? which wouldn't work...and i believe oats are gluten free, so yes a 100% oat beer would be GF? i think?

 

[The Mad Brewer]

to be on-topic, or offtopic...? or just crack a joke about doodie..

@joeoberfoell what have you decided? are we going to get a report about your oat beer?

i don't think it was asked if you were thinking of trying 100% quaker oats or something? which wouldn't work...and i believe oats are gluten free, so yes a 100% oat beer would be GF? i think?

This has opened up a whole new world for me, I feel like a Disney Princess.. I have a cream ale and Ipa in progress and only have 3 taps and have kegs in in all 3 right now so I need to get drinking to free up some room. But my spring runs are going to be some wheat and oat beers, using all wheat and or oats. Also thinking of trying a corn beer this summer. Also didnt know I could use Spelt, and the Amish stores around me always have Spelt, Wheat and Oat berrries.

 

[VikeMan]

Also didnt know I could use Spelt, and the Amish stores around me always have Spelt, Wheat and Oat berrries.

All of those can be used as base malts, if they have been malted. I don't know exactly what they sell at Amish stores, but make sure these grains are malted, unless you'll be using them along with other malted grains.

 

[bracconiere]

This has opened up a whole new world for me, I feel like a Disney Princess.. I have a cream ale and Ipa in progress and only have 3 taps and have kegs in in all 3 right now so I need to get drinking to free up some room. But my spring runs are going to be some wheat and oat beers, using all wheat and or oats. Also thinking of trying a corn beer this summer. Also didnt know I could use Spelt, and the Amish stores around me always have Spelt, Wheat and Oat berrries.

be sure to tag me with your results! (i was told i'm wrong, but i don't think corn beer will work because the gel temp is like 190f...)

All of those can be used as base malts, if they have been malted. I don't know exactly what they sell at Amish stores, but make sure these grains are malted, unless you'll be using them along with other malted grains.

i'm not sure, but i'm thinking the corn beer will be a flop....unless a cereal mash is done on most of the malt first.....then the temp lowered and the rest added back in to the mash or something....

but i'm just guessing....

but i KNOW the oat beer will be a success! done it many times!

 

[The Mad Brewer]

All of those can be used as base malts, if they have been malted. I don't know exactly what they sell at Amish stores, but make sure these grains are malted, unless you'll be using them along with other malted grains.

They are all in Berry form so i malt them myself, which I strangely enjoy. The wheat really malts well almost 90-100 percent, the Barly is so so when I can get it. I havent tried their oats yet.

 

[The Mad Brewer]

be sure to tag me with your results! (i was told i'm wrong, but i don't think corn beer will work because the gel temp is like 190f...)



i'm not sure, but i'm thinking the corn beer will be a flop....unless a cereal mash is done on most of the malt first.....then the temp lowered and the rest added back in to the mash or something....

but i'm just guessing....

but i KNOW the oat beer will be a success! done it many times!

Ya It wont be 100 % corn, I know that going in.

 

[VikeMan]

be sure to tag me with your results! (i was told i'm wrong, but i don't think corn beer will work because the gel temp is like 190f...)

I made a beer with home malted corn as the base malt. It worked. I did a protein rest, followed by a very long sacch rest at 150F. Conversion was very slow, presumably due to slow gelatinization. But it happened.

 

[bracconiere]

I made a beer with home malted corn as the base malt. It worked. I did a protein rest, followed by a very long sacch rest at 150F. Conversion was very slow, presumably due to slow gelatinization. But it happened.

how many pounds of corn, gallons water....and OG?

 

[Miraculix]

I made a beer with home malted corn as the base malt. It worked. I did a protein rest, followed by a very long sacch rest at 150F. Conversion was very slow, presumably due to slow gelatinization. But it happened.

Wow. How was the head retention? What did it taste like? I've read that corn has a much lower percentage of proteins than barley, which should decrease head retention theoretically. Did you see that in your beer?

 

[bracconiere]

i stand corrected...but it still looks like a decotion mash would be benificial for corn, for a second alpha rest?

https://bakerpedia.com/processes/starch-gelatinization/

(damn, now i want to see if i use shreded potatos in my beer, i can get back to my 99 cent twelve pack! )

 

[VikeMan]

how many pounds of corn, gallons water....and OG?

4 pounds (pre malted weight) popcorn
5 pounds pearled barley, soaked and toasted
6 ounces torrified wheat
I don't recall the amount of water without my notes, but I got about 4 gallons wort post boil (and more than a little extra in the mash tun that I didn't fight for, because I already had 5 gallons of wort to go into my "kettle" souring keg). Post boil OG was 1.037.

I should also mention that I let modification go longer than normal, to try to maximize enzyme production, possibly at the expense of some extract potential, because corn malt is normally fairly weak in DP. I also used the corn malt while still "wet," to avoid losing enzymes to the drying/kilning process. My actual brewday was "TBD" until the morning I decided the corn malt was ready to go into a food processor.

I did this beer for a brewclub "Grocery Store Challenge."

 

[VikeMan]

Wow. How was the head retention? What did it taste like? I've read that corn has a much lower percentage of proteins than barley, which should decrease head retention theoretically. Did you see that in your beer?

Head retention wasn't great. But also not horrible. Note that I also used pearled barley and a tiny bit of wheat in the grist.

ETA: This wort was also soured with Goodbelly shots. It ended up tasting pretty much like a berliner type sour. It did have a bit of that corn "sweetness," but no pronounced corn flavor.

 

[bracconiere]

I did this beer for a brewclub "Grocery Store Challenge."

we SOOOOO need to have a thread on HBT for that!

(and i get a 48% effec rating out of beersmith for that...but if i take the corn out, it's ~75%, so i don't think the corn added anything but the enzymes. which is why i think you need to do a mostly cereal mash with corn malt, then just enough reserved corn malt to convert once cooled to mash temp?..)

 

[grampamark]

No sir, unmalted barley doesn't contain all the enzymes, and malting does create enzymes. Here are a few references. (Emphasis added.)

I went to some lengths to explain the difference between naturally occurring germination and the controlled germination which is part of the malting process. Germination, and the resulting conversion of starches to sugars, happens without the malting process. The malting process can’t happen without germination. Germination, and the related chemical reactions, can be controlled but will happen spontaneously when the relative humidity is at, or near 100%, and the temp is above freezing (warmer is better, as in faster, but it will still occur at cool temps; if it didn’t we couldn’t grow cereals at the northern latitudes where many cereals are commonly grown). The malting varieties of barley which are commonly grown are “predisposed”, so to speak, to germinate readily when the appropriate conditions exist. This makes growing those varieties challenging for the grower. One late rain, just before harvest, when ambient temps are relatively high, can result in the grain spouting in the head, rendering the crop useless for malting. Once germination occurs, and the enzymes are available to the endosperm, conversion will begin.

It’s worth remembering that germination and it’s cousin, spontaneous fermentation, were discovered, not invented, thousands of years ago. Those discoveries led to the development of fermented beverages, a process which continues to be refined all these years later. Science, or, more appropriately, good science, never sleeps. Good scientists don’t proclaim “…from where the sun now stands we will never study (insert topic here) again. We know all there is to know”. The sciences of brewing, cereal chemistry, and plant breeding can collaborate to develop varities of cereals which are specfically adapted to enhance the malting process. But, the science can’t, at least at this point, “create” enzymes during the malting process.

All of which is a way of taking a long road to get to the small house of “it’s a matter of semantics”.

 

[bracconiere]

I went to some lengths to explain the difference between naturally occurring germination and the controlled germination which is part of the malting process. Germination, and the resulting conversion of starches to sugars, happens without the malting process. The malting process can’t happen without germination. Germination, and the related chemical reactions, can be controlled but will happen spontaneously when the relative humidity is at, or near 100%, and the temp is above freezing (warmer is better, as in faster, but it will still occur at cool temps; if it didn’t we couldn’t grow cereals at the northern latitudes where many cereals are commonly grown). The malting varieties of barley which are commonly grown are “predisposed”, so to speak, to germinate readily when the appropriate conditions exist. This makes growing those varieties challenging for the grower. One late rain, just before harvest, when ambient temps are relatively high, can result in the grain spouting in the head, rendering the crop useless for malting. Once germination occurs, and the enzymes are available to the endosperm, conversion will begin.

It’s worth remembering that germination and it’s cousin, spontaneous fermentation, were discovered, not invented, thousands of years ago. Those discoveries led to the development of fermented beverages, a process which continues to be refined all these years later. Science, or, more appropriately, good science, never sleeps. Good scientists don’t proclaim “…from where the sun now stands we will never study (insert topic here) again. We know all there is to know”. The sciences of brewing, cereal chemistry, and plant breeding can collaborate to develop varities of cereals which are specfically adapted to enhance the malting process. But, the science can’t, at least at this point, “create” enzymes during the malting process.

All of which is a way of taking a long road to get to the small house of “it’s a matter of semantics”.

#1 are we talking does it need to be mashed here?


#2 i would think fruit juice was the first fermented alcoholic drink?

#3 i only made it through the 4th grade, so just now had to google "semantics def" (but i'm not THAT dim, i could see how it was being used...just needed to double check! )

 

[VikeMan]

I went to some lengths to explain the difference between naturally occurring germination and the controlled germination which is part of the malting process.

Yes, you did. And most of that post was accurate, which I (and others, I'm sure) appreciated. I only took issue with a couple of inaccurate, but IMO important, statements, namely that...

//Unmalted barley contains all of the enzymes which will be present in the malted barley (or wheat, rye, corn, rice, etc, etc, etc…) The malting process doesn’t create enzymes.//

Both of those statements are inaccurate. If you now mean to say that by unmalted barley you mean unmalted barley that has naturally germinated, ok, I guess. I don't think that's what others would take it to mean. i.e. a homebrewer talking about adding unmalted grains to their grist does not mean germinated grains. That aside, the malting process (as well as natural germination) does create enzymes. It releases hormones that cause complex proteins to be degraded into amylase (and other) enzymes. Before these proteins are degraded by the process, they are not enzymes. If, on the other hand, you mean that unmalted barley contains everything (except water) needed to produce these enzymes, that's certainly true.

Good scientists don’t proclaim “…from where the sun now stands we will never study (insert topic here) again. We know all there is to know”.

Of course. But good scientists do understand enzyme production during malting.

But, the science can’t, at least at this point, “create” enzymes during the malting process.

Biochemical processes sure do create enzymes during malting. The science just understands it. Are you saying that any/all of the references I provided are incorrect?

 

[bracconiere]

Yes, you did. And most of that post was accurate, which I (and others, I'm sure) appreciated. I only took issue with a couple of inaccurate, but IMO important, statements, namley that...

//Unmalted barley contains all of the enzymes which will be present in the malted barley (or wheat, rye, corn, rice, etc, etc, etc…) The malting process doesn’t create enzymes.//

Both of those statments are inaccurate. If you now mean to say that by unmalted barley you mean unmalted barley that has naturally germinated, ok, I guess. I don't think that's what others would take it to mean. i.e. a homebrewer talking about adding unmalted grains to their grist does not mean germinated grains. That aside, the malting process (as well as natural germination) does create enzymes. It releases hormones that cause complex proteins to be degraded into amylase (and other) enzymes. Before these proteins are degraded by the process, they are not enzymes. If, on the other hand, you mean that unmalted barley contains everything (except water) needed to produce these enzymes, that's certainly true.



Of course. But good scientists do understand enzyme production during malting.



Biocheminal processes sure do create enzymes during malting. The science just understands it. Are you saying that any/all of the references I provided are incorrect?

enzymes are protiens....this is like saying kids are born as full grown adults....or even if sperm has protien it's not going to get bigger in an egg....i'm with you


i mean sure unmalted "oats" would have a "bit" of amylase, just so it could start growing...once it starts that, it's going to get hungry, and need to grow a bigger mouth....

 

[The Mad Brewer]

i stand corrected...but it still looks like a decotion mash would be benificial for corn, for a second alpha rest?

https://bakerpedia.com/processes/starch-gelatinization/

(damn, now i want to see if i use shreded potatos in my beer, i can get back to my 99 cent twelve pack! )

I have seen a documentary on beer in Asia and there was aplace using Red beans, because Barley was hard to find and some other things like potatoes, which is intriguing.

 

[bracconiere]

I have seen a documentary on beer in Asia and there was aplace using Red beans, because Barley was hard to find and some other things like potatoes, which is intriguing.

damn, if the grocery chalenge thread pops up...i'm am so making red bean, or mung bean sprouts.....they do sell mung bean sprouts at the store stilll....stew some white rice, blend up some bean sprouts....i'm so going to take the GREAT HBT "Grocery Challenge"...i'm going to add some 100% maple syrup, just so i can nick name it Sap-Or-Ya....

edit: i assume the conlusion of this thread has been reached and it's all for fun now...?

 

[The Mad Brewer]

damn, if the grocery chalenge thread pops up...i'm am so making red bean, or mung bean sprouts.....they do sell mung bean sprouts at the store stilll....stew some white rice, blend up some bean sprouts....i'm so going to take the GREAT HBT "Grocery Challenge"...i'm going to add some 100% maple syrup, just so i can nick name it Sap-Or-Ya....

edit: i assume the conlusion of this thread has been reached and it's all for fun now...?

Side note Im going to use Maple tap water for my Cream ale this weekend if I get enough in my buckets. Otherwise I may freeze some for my spring brews. Its on my list to do a maple sap beer and then add some maple syrup at kegging

 

[Bobby_M]

There are times and places for discussions at the atomic level, the molecular level, planetary, and universal. I'm just saying read the room folks. Post #21 is where it went completely off the rails but I don't think the original question was ever answered directly.

Can we agree that the answer to the OP's question is "Yes, as long as at least half of the grain is malted, otherwise you'll have to add amylase".

 

[bracconiere]

Side note Im going to use Maple tap water for my Cream ale this weekend if I get enough in my buckets. Otherwise I may freeze some for my spring brews. Its on my list to do a maple sap beer and then add some maple syrup at kegging

damn, sounds good...i've used toasted maple wood before for aging, never sap though....