can you make a beer with no barley, using wheat and oats?

[VikeMan]

Also didnt know I could use Spelt, and the Amish stores around me always have Spelt, Wheat and Oat berrries.

All of those can be used as base malts, if they have been malted. I don't know exactly what they sell at Amish stores, but make sure these grains are malted, unless you'll be using them along with other malted grains.

 

[bracconiere]

This has opened up a whole new world for me, I feel like a Disney Princess.. I have a cream ale and Ipa in progress and only have 3 taps and have kegs in in all 3 right now so I need to get drinking to free up some room. But my spring runs are going to be some wheat and oat beers, using all wheat and or oats. Also thinking of trying a corn beer this summer. Also didnt know I could use Spelt, and the Amish stores around me always have Spelt, Wheat and Oat berrries.

be sure to tag me with your results! (i was told i'm wrong, but i don't think corn beer will work because the gel temp is like 190f...)

All of those can be used as base malts, if they have been malted. I don't know exactly what they sell at Amish stores, but make sure these grains are malted, unless you'll be using them along with other malted grains.

i'm not sure, but i'm thinking the corn beer will be a flop....unless a cereal mash is done on most of the malt first.....then the temp lowered and the rest added back in to the mash or something....

but i'm just guessing....

but i KNOW the oat beer will be a success! done it many times!

 

[The Mad Brewer]

All of those can be used as base malts, if they have been malted. I don't know exactly what they sell at Amish stores, but make sure these grains are malted, unless you'll be using them along with other malted grains.

They are all in Berry form so i malt them myself, which I strangely enjoy. The wheat really malts well almost 90-100 percent, the Barly is so so when I can get it. I havent tried their oats yet.

 

[The Mad Brewer]

be sure to tag me with your results! (i was told i'm wrong, but i don't think corn beer will work because the gel temp is like 190f...)



i'm not sure, but i'm thinking the corn beer will be a flop....unless a cereal mash is done on most of the malt first.....then the temp lowered and the rest added back in to the mash or something....

but i'm just guessing....

but i KNOW the oat beer will be a success! done it many times!

Ya It wont be 100 % corn, I know that going in.

 

[VikeMan]

be sure to tag me with your results! (i was told i'm wrong, but i don't think corn beer will work because the gel temp is like 190f...)

I made a beer with home malted corn as the base malt. It worked. I did a protein rest, followed by a very long sacch rest at 150F. Conversion was very slow, presumably due to slow gelatinization. But it happened.

 

[bracconiere]

I made a beer with home malted corn as the base malt. It worked. I did a protein rest, followed by a very long sacch rest at 150F. Conversion was very slow, presumably due to slow gelatinization. But it happened.

how many pounds of corn, gallons water....and OG?

 

[Miraculix]

I made a beer with home malted corn as the base malt. It worked. I did a protein rest, followed by a very long sacch rest at 150F. Conversion was very slow, presumably due to slow gelatinization. But it happened.

Wow. How was the head retention? What did it taste like? I've read that corn has a much lower percentage of proteins than barley, which should decrease head retention theoretically. Did you see that in your beer?

 

[bracconiere]

i stand corrected...but it still looks like a decotion mash would be benificial for corn, for a second alpha rest?

https://bakerpedia.com/processes/starch-gelatinization/

(damn, now i want to see if i use shreded potatos in my beer, i can get back to my 99 cent twelve pack! )

 

[VikeMan]

how many pounds of corn, gallons water....and OG?

4 pounds (pre malted weight) popcorn
5 pounds pearled barley, soaked and toasted
6 ounces torrified wheat
I don't recall the amount of water without my notes, but I got about 4 gallons wort post boil (and more than a little extra in the mash tun that I didn't fight for, because I already had 5 gallons of wort to go into my "kettle" souring keg). Post boil OG was 1.037.

I should also mention that I let modification go longer than normal, to try to maximize enzyme production, possibly at the expense of some extract potential, because corn malt is normally fairly weak in DP. I also used the corn malt while still "wet," to avoid losing enzymes to the drying/kilning process. My actual brewday was "TBD" until the morning I decided the corn malt was ready to go into a food processor.

I did this beer for a brewclub "Grocery Store Challenge."

 

[VikeMan]

Wow. How was the head retention? What did it taste like? I've read that corn has a much lower percentage of proteins than barley, which should decrease head retention theoretically. Did you see that in your beer?

Head retention wasn't great. But also not horrible. Note that I also used pearled barley and a tiny bit of wheat in the grist.

ETA: This wort was also soured with Goodbelly shots. It ended up tasting pretty much like a berliner type sour. It did have a bit of that corn "sweetness," but no pronounced corn flavor.

 

[bracconiere]

I did this beer for a brewclub "Grocery Store Challenge."

we SOOOOO need to have a thread on HBT for that!

(and i get a 48% effec rating out of beersmith for that...but if i take the corn out, it's ~75%, so i don't think the corn added anything but the enzymes. which is why i think you need to do a mostly cereal mash with corn malt, then just enough reserved corn malt to convert once cooled to mash temp?..)

 

[grampamark]

No sir, unmalted barley doesn't contain all the enzymes, and malting does create enzymes. Here are a few references. (Emphasis added.)

I went to some lengths to explain the difference between naturally occurring germination and the controlled germination which is part of the malting process. Germination, and the resulting conversion of starches to sugars, happens without the malting process. The malting process can’t happen without germination. Germination, and the related chemical reactions, can be controlled but will happen spontaneously when the relative humidity is at, or near 100%, and the temp is above freezing (warmer is better, as in faster, but it will still occur at cool temps; if it didn’t we couldn’t grow cereals at the northern latitudes where many cereals are commonly grown). The malting varieties of barley which are commonly grown are “predisposed”, so to speak, to germinate readily when the appropriate conditions exist. This makes growing those varieties challenging for the grower. One late rain, just before harvest, when ambient temps are relatively high, can result in the grain spouting in the head, rendering the crop useless for malting. Once germination occurs, and the enzymes are available to the endosperm, conversion will begin.

It’s worth remembering that germination and it’s cousin, spontaneous fermentation, were discovered, not invented, thousands of years ago. Those discoveries led to the development of fermented beverages, a process which continues to be refined all these years later. Science, or, more appropriately, good science, never sleeps. Good scientists don’t proclaim “…from where the sun now stands we will never study (insert topic here) again. We know all there is to know”. The sciences of brewing, cereal chemistry, and plant breeding can collaborate to develop varities of cereals which are specfically adapted to enhance the malting process. But, the science can’t, at least at this point, “create” enzymes during the malting process.

All of which is a way of taking a long road to get to the small house of “it’s a matter of semantics”.

 

[bracconiere]

I went to some lengths to explain the difference between naturally occurring germination and the controlled germination which is part of the malting process. Germination, and the resulting conversion of starches to sugars, happens without the malting process. The malting process can’t happen without germination. Germination, and the related chemical reactions, can be controlled but will happen spontaneously when the relative humidity is at, or near 100%, and the temp is above freezing (warmer is better, as in faster, but it will still occur at cool temps; if it didn’t we couldn’t grow cereals at the northern latitudes where many cereals are commonly grown). The malting varieties of barley which are commonly grown are “predisposed”, so to speak, to germinate readily when the appropriate conditions exist. This makes growing those varieties challenging for the grower. One late rain, just before harvest, when ambient temps are relatively high, can result in the grain spouting in the head, rendering the crop useless for malting. Once germination occurs, and the enzymes are available to the endosperm, conversion will begin.

It’s worth remembering that germination and it’s cousin, spontaneous fermentation, were discovered, not invented, thousands of years ago. Those discoveries led to the development of fermented beverages, a process which continues to be refined all these years later. Science, or, more appropriately, good science, never sleeps. Good scientists don’t proclaim “…from where the sun now stands we will never study (insert topic here) again. We know all there is to know”. The sciences of brewing, cereal chemistry, and plant breeding can collaborate to develop varities of cereals which are specfically adapted to enhance the malting process. But, the science can’t, at least at this point, “create” enzymes during the malting process.

All of which is a way of taking a long road to get to the small house of “it’s a matter of semantics”.

#1 are we talking does it need to be mashed here?


#2 i would think fruit juice was the first fermented alcoholic drink?

#3 i only made it through the 4th grade, so just now had to google "semantics def" (but i'm not THAT dim, i could see how it was being used...just needed to double check! )

 

[VikeMan]

I went to some lengths to explain the difference between naturally occurring germination and the controlled germination which is part of the malting process.

Yes, you did. And most of that post was accurate, which I (and others, I'm sure) appreciated. I only took issue with a couple of inaccurate, but IMO important, statements, namely that...

//Unmalted barley contains all of the enzymes which will be present in the malted barley (or wheat, rye, corn, rice, etc, etc, etc…) The malting process doesn’t create enzymes.//

Both of those statements are inaccurate. If you now mean to say that by unmalted barley you mean unmalted barley that has naturally germinated, ok, I guess. I don't think that's what others would take it to mean. i.e. a homebrewer talking about adding unmalted grains to their grist does not mean germinated grains. That aside, the malting process (as well as natural germination) does create enzymes. It releases hormones that cause complex proteins to be degraded into amylase (and other) enzymes. Before these proteins are degraded by the process, they are not enzymes. If, on the other hand, you mean that unmalted barley contains everything (except water) needed to produce these enzymes, that's certainly true.

Good scientists don’t proclaim “…from where the sun now stands we will never study (insert topic here) again. We know all there is to know”.

Of course. But good scientists do understand enzyme production during malting.

But, the science can’t, at least at this point, “create” enzymes during the malting process.

Biochemical processes sure do create enzymes during malting. The science just understands it. Are you saying that any/all of the references I provided are incorrect?

 

[bracconiere]

Yes, you did. And most of that post was accurate, which I (and others, I'm sure) appreciated. I only took issue with a couple of inaccurate, but IMO important, statements, namley that...

//Unmalted barley contains all of the enzymes which will be present in the malted barley (or wheat, rye, corn, rice, etc, etc, etc…) The malting process doesn’t create enzymes.//

Both of those statments are inaccurate. If you now mean to say that by unmalted barley you mean unmalted barley that has naturally germinated, ok, I guess. I don't think that's what others would take it to mean. i.e. a homebrewer talking about adding unmalted grains to their grist does not mean germinated grains. That aside, the malting process (as well as natural germination) does create enzymes. It releases hormones that cause complex proteins to be degraded into amylase (and other) enzymes. Before these proteins are degraded by the process, they are not enzymes. If, on the other hand, you mean that unmalted barley contains everything (except water) needed to produce these enzymes, that's certainly true.



Of course. But good scientists do understand enzyme production during malting.



Biocheminal processes sure do create enzymes during malting. The science just understands it. Are you saying that any/all of the references I provided are incorrect?

enzymes are protiens....this is like saying kids are born as full grown adults....or even if sperm has protien it's not going to get bigger in an egg....i'm with you


i mean sure unmalted "oats" would have a "bit" of amylase, just so it could start growing...once it starts that, it's going to get hungry, and need to grow a bigger mouth....

 

[The Mad Brewer]

i stand corrected...but it still looks like a decotion mash would be benificial for corn, for a second alpha rest?

https://bakerpedia.com/processes/starch-gelatinization/

(damn, now i want to see if i use shreded potatos in my beer, i can get back to my 99 cent twelve pack! )

I have seen a documentary on beer in Asia and there was aplace using Red beans, because Barley was hard to find and some other things like potatoes, which is intriguing.

 

[bracconiere]

I have seen a documentary on beer in Asia and there was aplace using Red beans, because Barley was hard to find and some other things like potatoes, which is intriguing.

damn, if the grocery chalenge thread pops up...i'm am so making red bean, or mung bean sprouts.....they do sell mung bean sprouts at the store stilll....stew some white rice, blend up some bean sprouts....i'm so going to take the GREAT HBT "Grocery Challenge"...i'm going to add some 100% maple syrup, just so i can nick name it Sap-Or-Ya....

edit: i assume the conlusion of this thread has been reached and it's all for fun now...?

 

[The Mad Brewer]

damn, if the grocery chalenge thread pops up...i'm am so making red bean, or mung bean sprouts.....they do sell mung bean sprouts at the store stilll....stew some white rice, blend up some bean sprouts....i'm so going to take the GREAT HBT "Grocery Challenge"...i'm going to add some 100% maple syrup, just so i can nick name it Sap-Or-Ya....

edit: i assume the conlusion of this thread has been reached and it's all for fun now...?

Side note Im going to use Maple tap water for my Cream ale this weekend if I get enough in my buckets. Otherwise I may freeze some for my spring brews. Its on my list to do a maple sap beer and then add some maple syrup at kegging

 

[Bobby_M]

There are times and places for discussions at the atomic level, the molecular level, planetary, and universal. I'm just saying read the room folks. Post #21 is where it went completely off the rails but I don't think the original question was ever answered directly.

Can we agree that the answer to the OP's question is "Yes, as long as at least half of the grain is malted, otherwise you'll have to add amylase".

 

[bracconiere]

Side note Im going to use Maple tap water for my Cream ale this weekend if I get enough in my buckets. Otherwise I may freeze some for my spring brews. Its on my list to do a maple sap beer and then add some maple syrup at kegging

damn, sounds good...i've used toasted maple wood before for aging, never sap though....

 

[bracconiere]

There are times and places for discussions at the atomic level, the molecular level, planetary, and universal. I'm just saying read the room folks. Post #21 is where it went completely off the rails but I don't think the original question was ever answered directly.

Can we agree that the answer to the OP's question is "Yes, as long as at least half of the grain is malted, otherwise you'll have to add amylase".

naw, i think my post #9..

and it should be noted from my 100% white rice lesson and serious runs from it...if you do use amylase to convert, add glucoamylase to the fermenter also...other wise you're going to end up with a lot of left over dextrins, which are sorta soluble fiber......

 

[The Mad Brewer]

There are times and places for discussions at the atomic level, the molecular level, planetary, and universal. I'm just saying read the room folks. Post #21 is where it went completely off the rails but I don't think the original question was ever answered directly.

Can we agree that the answer to the OP's question is "Yes, as lon

naw, i think my post #9..

and it should be noted from my 100% white rice lesson and serious runs from it...if you do use amylase to convert, add glucoamylase to the fermenter also...other wise you're going to end up with a lot of left over dextrins, which are sorta soluble fiber......

im just thankful for all the knowledge everyone is sharing. So much to learn, but I will do so while drinking a Fine homebrew

 

[grampamark]

Biochemical processes sure do create enzymes during malting. The science just understands it. Are you saying that any/all of the references I provided are incorrect?

If you haven’t figured it out yet, I’m having a little fun with this off topic discussion. I like to observe those to whom being right all the time is really important.

As I, and others, have noted, this is largely a matter of semantics. Are the enzymes which convert starches into fermentable sugars “created” during the mash or “facilitated” by the mashing process? If the end result is beer, then it’s all good.

 

[bracconiere]

If you haven’t figured it out yet, I’m having a little fun with this off topic discussion. I like to observe those to whom being right all the time is really important.

As I, and others, have noted, this is largely a matter of semantics. Are the enzymes which convert starches into fermentable sugars “created” during the mash or “facilitated” by the mashing process? If the end result is beer, then it’s all good.

all the little kernels just want to grow up to be big boy when they're sprouts.....then wish they were still young when they're in the mash....

 

[cmac62]

This is a good one. I have learned some stuff. I was just going to say make sure to add some Amylase to the mash, but since I have never done anything like make an all wheat or millet or anything other than barley beer, and it was always malted barley, I have no clue. @bracconiere I like the idea of a grocery store challenge thread. Get on that would you. LOL

 

[bracconiere]

I like the idea of a grocery store challenge thread. Get on that would you. LOL

we'd have to make hawain punch and all juice off limits...be too easy. it'd have be stricly from the grocery store, how can you convert starch to sugar... which means sugar would have to be off limits too.

 

[cmac62]

we'd have to make hawain punch and all juice off limits...be too easy. it'd have be stricly from the grocery store, how can you convert starch to sugar... which means sugar would have to be off limits too.

Would it be cheating to use whole foods as your grocery? LOL

Now it is really off the chain. LOL

 

[bracconiere]

Would it be cheating to use whole foods as your grocery? LOL

Now it is really off the chain. LOL

if i can use the animal "grocery" store...i'm going to so win...but brown rice sprouts, i'm thinking 32oz sprouted brown rice, 5 lb flour.....some tapioca....could be interesting. add some left over tapioca balls back on serving, call it bubble brew?

edit: and yes you can use wheat flour for beer! which is on topic!

 

[Miraculix]

I can buy bakers rye malt at the grocery store here...... not cheap and small packs but still malt.

 

[bracconiere]

I can buy bakers rye malt at the grocery store here...... not cheap and small packs but still malt.

sounds like we have a game a foot....