The Mad Brewer
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can you make a beer with no barley, using wheat and oats?
can you make a beer with no barley, using wheat and oats?
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Beernik
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Yes, high probability of a mash though. Taste might be weird.
Use a bunch of rice hulls.
Use a bunch of rice hulls.
i've brewed many 100% oat beers..malted of course, i'd keep the wheat down though because it doesn't have a husk...but with how much husk oats have, probably could do 50/50....
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But is it beer?
If you look at the definition of beer in most dictionaries it says a alcoholic drink made with barley. Some use malt, but when you look at their definition of malt they say malts are usually made from barley.
And we could pull out the Reinheitsgebot Reinheitsgebot - Wikipedia
Many of us regularly violate that though since we also use priming sugar when we bottle.
If you look at the definition of beer in most dictionaries it says a alcoholic drink made with barley. Some use malt, but when you look at their definition of malt they say malts are usually made from barley.
And we could pull out the Reinheitsgebot Reinheitsgebot - Wikipedia
Many of us regularly violate that though since we also use priming sugar when we bottle.
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100% wheat definitely works — that’s what’s traditional for a Grodziskie. Regular malted wheat has a ton of diastatic power. I’ve made a 100% Lichtenhainer, and a 100% wheat porter once, too: white wheat, crystal wheat, midnight wheat, and smoked wheat. Came out well.
how did you sparge it?
The guys on Basic Brewing Radio did some 100% Wheat batches (maybe Red vs White). They brewed via BIAB, and did not report any issues with the mash. They tasted them along with the same recipe made with 100% barley. As I recall they were able to pick out the barley batch, but it did not seem very easy for them. I would have thought there would be a drastic difference between a barley and a wheat beer. I am pretty sure they were even looking at the beers in clear cups.
It’s all about BIAB.
Someday I’ll make a recipe that involves wheat, oats, rye, and unmalted barley and name it “Take That, 3-Vessel Brewers.”
Oleson M.D.
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But why would you want to?
OP
OP
The Mad Brewer
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I guess I thought it had something to do with enzymes and you had to have barley for conversion..... this is interesting because I like to experimenting and want to try an all oat an all wheat beers.
Didn't the Egyptians make beer?
Didn't the Egyptians make beer?
OP
OP
The Mad Brewer
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What if you cant get Barley or its in real short supply. Also isn't the Ukraine and Russia the big exporters. I have been hearing rumors of a shortage coming.
There, I fixed that for you.
Wheat has more than enough enzymes. Oats and rye are generally able to self convert, but it’s a closer call. Oats need to be malted, of course, and there aren’t too many sources. When you’ve got a recipe, post it in the recipes forum and people can give you a best guess on enzyme levels.
yes it does, why the grain needs to be malted...that way it basicly developes a enzymatic mouth to start breast feeding...then you mumyfy it, throw it in the oven so it doesn't leave a bad taste...and then rehydrate....
another thing to consider is some grains have higher gel temps, so can't be malted and mashed, like corn and rice....
yeah that's when i brew oat beer, i go to the feed store for whole barley. they tell me they're out. so pick up a bag of oats....
beat me to it!
I also recall Basic Brewing Radio/Video making a 100% Rye beer. If I recall correctly, the mash was really sticky and the final beer was very thick and heavy. I also recall James saying he has made a few batches of a low ABV Rye beer (probably around 3% ABV) and the Rye gives it some nice body.
I only recall seeing malted Barley and malted Wheat at my local shops, but you should be able to make a "beer" with any malted grain (oats, spelt, rye, etc.), or with a non-malted grain at around 50% with most malted base grains. It sounds like a good way to create some unique brews.
I only recall seeing malted Barley and malted Wheat at my local shops, but you should be able to make a "beer" with any malted grain (oats, spelt, rye, etc.), or with a non-malted grain at around 50% with most malted base grains. It sounds like a good way to create some unique brews.
unfortantly not. different grains have diferent gelatization temps, a lot have gel temps above mash temps....so a no go....
at least that's my understanding. if it needs a cereal mash, can't brew with it directly?
OP
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The Mad Brewer
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Now i have another question, Rice Hulls? Not the rice grains for brewing? Where does someone get them, my local brew shop?
The rice hulls help in the lautering phase.
Yes, you can usually get them at a homebrew store.
It's like mixing sand in with hard dirt in a flower bed or garden, it helps with the drainage.
Steveruch
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The dictionaries I looked at said "grain often or mainly barley". Any grain can be used to make beer: rice wine is a misnomer as sake is actually beer.But is it beer?
If you look at the definition of beer in most dictionaries it says a alcoholic drink made with barley. Some use malt, but when you look at their definition of malt they say malts are usually made from barley.
And we could pull out the Reinheitsgebot Reinheitsgebot - Wikipedia
Many of us regularly violate that though since we also use priming sugar when we bottle.
jerrylotto
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You can make beer from any grain that can supply starches in the presence of amylase enzymes -either intrinsic or added. You don't even need for it to be malted although you would probably have to use a lot more of it and want to drastically alter your mashing process by starting out with some low temperature promotion of enzymatic and biochemical pathways that would have already have taken place in malting.
VikeMan
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How would you propose producing alpha amylase without germination?
Also, how would using "more of it" be helpful? Whatever the amount of enzymes, they would increase, but proportionally to the starches that need conversion. i.e. use more grain and you haven't changed the diastatic power (degrees lintner).
jerrylotto
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You didn't quote the "either intrinsic or added" phrase referring to enzymes with which I predicated this statement.
VikeMan
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No need. "Added" wasn't the part I wanted to discuss. I agree that various enzymes could be added.
"Intrinsic" was the part I wanted to discuss.
You claimed "You don't even need for it to be malted although you would probably have to use a lot more of it and want to drastically alter your mashing process by starting out with some low temperature promotion of enzymatic and biochemical pathways that would have already have taken place in malting."
What "low temperature promotion of enzymatic and biochemical pathways" process do you propose? And how does using "more of it" (i.e. more unmalted grains) help, given that the avg diastatic power doesn't change?
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Reminds me of the 60s line from Rowan and Martin's Laugh-In:
"They called it rice wine, but it was 'sock it to me' instead."
Himalaya Chang is made from unmalted barley or rice or corn or millet, or a mix of any of these. They use a similar process as Chinese rice wine and sake brewers use. The unmalted grain is inoculated with certain molds and yeasts. The molds provide the enzymes to chop the starches into sugars and the yeast does what yeast does. I got 4 batches going atm, it's fun stuff.
VikeMan
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Right. That's adding external enzymes. I'm interested in the "drastically alter your mashing process by starting out with some low temperature promotion of enzymatic and biochemical pathways" idea.
Easy peasy. Drastically alter your mashing process by starting out at low temperature: begin by adding the grains to water at room temperature or a bit below. Leave them there for a few days, periodically draining the water for an "air rest" so the grain can breathe. Then heat the barley until it dries out, and break off any rootlets that have formed. Store for four weeks or more. After this "drastic pre-mash" process, you can then proceed with a normal mash.
VikeMan
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Lolz. Don't forget to stir/turn occasionally.
didn't even think of koji...but i agree for stuff like rice and corn, you would have to start with boiling them to even get the starch available to the enzymes in the first place.....which would denature the enzymes....
jerrylotto
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Phytase, Beta-Glucanse, Proteinase and Peptidase activity was what I was thinking about - and diastatic power changes drastically with added enzymes. I was thinking that starches would be less accessible so more grist would be needed to get sufficient quantities to convert.
VikeMan
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If you mean malted corn, you don't have to boil it. If you did, it would, as you pointed out, denature the enzymes that were produced by malting. Moonshiners mash malted corn all the time. And I used it as the base malt in a beer recently. Gelatinization (and thus conversion) did take longer though.
VikeMan
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We must be having two different conversations. If you mean added from an external source, great. But as I said, that's not what I was questioning. I was questioning the "drastically alter your mashing process by starting out with some low temperature promotion of enzymatic and biochemical pathways." What specifically do you propose doing that will create the enzymes?
Yes, diastatic power (degrees lintner) does change drastically when there are more enzymes. But not when you increase starches proportionally. Then you're right back where you started.
jerrylotto
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Yes, two different conversations. I was just saying that non-malted grain can be a source of starch but it won't provide as much as an equivalent weight of malt. Clearly, enzymes for converting that starch have to come from somewhere. Adding them explicitly in some form, either refined or as malt is why I said "intrinsic or added". Of course, if you just keep adding one component, the relative activity will not change.
VikeMan
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I concur with this, but what did you mean by "drastically alter your mashing process by starting out with some low temperature promotion of enzymatic and biochemical pathways?" What new process would do that?
jerrylotto
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Mostly debranching as well as breaking down gums, amino acid chains and proteins - not new processes but steps that are usually unnecessary or abbreviated with highly modified malts.
You can make an all wheat beer. You can make an all rye beer. These grains are routinely malted, and readily available.
Neither wheat or rye have a husk so the mash and sparge process need to take this into consideration. (Use rice hulls to help the filtration process.)
Using un-malted grains changes the entire process. The malting process prepares the grain's enzymes for use in reducing starch to more fermentable sugars and breakdown other chemicals that cause off flavor (DMS) and haze (proteins). The standard infusion mash release beta amylase (140F to 149F) and alpha amylase (145F to 158F) and activate them to break down starch into sugar that yeast can ferment.
Using un-malted grains you will need to alter the mashing process to accommodate this. A protein rest 113F to 138F would be recomeneded. A beta rest and an alpha rest will be needed as well. A longer boil time will help with the breaking down other chemicals. There are several methods for mashing at various temperatures. A decoction mash for one, where you start the mash with a n infusion of water to achieve an protein rest and then extract sufficient grain/water and heat enough to add back and bring the rest of the mash to the next desired rest and then repeat. A second technique would be to use a cereal mash.
In a cereal mash you would start with an infusion of water to achieve a protein rest and then take water and oats and/or rice in a sufficient quantity, bring them to a boil for about 10 to 15 minutes in add them to the mash to achieve a temp of about 147 to 148 to achieve both the beta and alpha rest. Then use 90 to 120 minute boil.
At one time I did a lot of cereal mashing, it is especially effective when making a rich and creamy oatmeal stout.
Neither wheat or rye have a husk so the mash and sparge process need to take this into consideration. (Use rice hulls to help the filtration process.)
Using un-malted grains changes the entire process. The malting process prepares the grain's enzymes for use in reducing starch to more fermentable sugars and breakdown other chemicals that cause off flavor (DMS) and haze (proteins). The standard infusion mash release beta amylase (140F to 149F) and alpha amylase (145F to 158F) and activate them to break down starch into sugar that yeast can ferment.
Using un-malted grains you will need to alter the mashing process to accommodate this. A protein rest 113F to 138F would be recomeneded. A beta rest and an alpha rest will be needed as well. A longer boil time will help with the breaking down other chemicals. There are several methods for mashing at various temperatures. A decoction mash for one, where you start the mash with a n infusion of water to achieve an protein rest and then extract sufficient grain/water and heat enough to add back and bring the rest of the mash to the next desired rest and then repeat. A second technique would be to use a cereal mash.
In a cereal mash you would start with an infusion of water to achieve a protein rest and then take water and oats and/or rice in a sufficient quantity, bring them to a boil for about 10 to 15 minutes in add them to the mash to achieve a temp of about 147 to 148 to achieve both the beta and alpha rest. Then use 90 to 120 minute boil.
At one time I did a lot of cereal mashing, it is especially effective when making a rich and creamy oatmeal stout.
VikeMan
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Okay, but what's the process? How would you make this happen? Where are the enzymes coming from in the unmalted grains?
the enzymes are present in the grain (malted or un-malted). the extended mashing process and extended multiple rests at appropriate temps will activate the enzymes. This will not be as effective as using malted grain but it would work.
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