can you make a beer with no barley, using wheat and oats?

[jerrylotto]

No need. "Added" wasn't the part I wanted to discuss. I agree that various enzymes could be added.

"Intrinsic" was the part I wanted to discuss.

You claimed "You don't even need for it to be malted although you would probably have to use a lot more of it and want to drastically alter your mashing process by starting out with some low temperature promotion of enzymatic and biochemical pathways that would have already have taken place in malting."

What "low temperature promotion of enzymatic and biochemical pathways" process do you propose? And how does using "more of it" (i.e. more unmalted grains) help, given that the avg diastatic power doesn't change?

Phytase, Beta-Glucanse, Proteinase and Peptidase activity was what I was thinking about - and diastatic power changes drastically with added enzymes. I was thinking that starches would be less accessible so more grist would be needed to get sufficient quantities to convert.

 

[VikeMan]

didn't even think of koji...but i agree for stuff like rice and corn, you would have to start with boiling them to even get the starch available to the enzymes in the first place.....which would denature the enzymes....

If you mean malted corn, you don't have to boil it. If you did, it would, as you pointed out, denature the enzymes that were produced by malting. Moonshiners mash malted corn all the time. And I used it as the base malt in a beer recently. Gelatinization (and thus conversion) did take longer though.

 

[bracconiere]

If you mean malted corn, you don't have to boil it. If you did, it would, as you pointed out, denature the enzymes that were produced by malting. Moonshiners mash malted corn all the time. And I used it as the base malt in a beer recently. Gelatinization (and thus conversion) did take longer though.

i've always thought they boil most of the corn in a cereal mash....?

 

[VikeMan]

Phytase, Beta-Glucanse, Proteinase and Peptidase activity was what I was thinking about - and diastatic power changes drastically with added enzymes. I was thinking that starches would be less accessible so more grist would be needed to get sufficient quantities to convert.

We must be having two different conversations. If you mean added from an external source, great. But as I said, that's not what I was questioning. I was questioning the "drastically alter your mashing process by starting out with some low temperature promotion of enzymatic and biochemical pathways." What specifically do you propose doing that will create the enzymes?

Yes, diastatic power (degrees lintner) does change drastically when there are more enzymes. But not when you increase starches proportionally. Then you're right back where you started.

 

[jerrylotto]

Yes, two different conversations. I was just saying that non-malted grain can be a source of starch but it won't provide as much as an equivalent weight of malt. Clearly, enzymes for converting that starch have to come from somewhere. Adding them explicitly in some form, either refined or as malt is why I said "intrinsic or added". Of course, if you just keep adding one component, the relative activity will not change.

 

[VikeMan]

Clearly, enzymes for converting that starch have to come from somewhere. Adding them explicitly in some form, either refined or as malt is why I said "intrinsic or added". Of course, if you just keep adding one component, the relative activity will not change.

I concur with this, but what did you mean by "drastically alter your mashing process by starting out with some low temperature promotion of enzymatic and biochemical pathways?" What new process would do that?

 

[jerrylotto]

I concur with this, but what did you mean by "drastically alter your mashing process by starting out with some low temperature promotion of enzymatic and biochemical pathways?" What new process would do that?

Mostly debranching as well as breaking down gums, amino acid chains and proteins - not new processes but steps that are usually unnecessary or abbreviated with highly modified malts.

 

[BrewerinBR]

You can make an all wheat beer. You can make an all rye beer. These grains are routinely malted, and readily available.
Neither wheat or rye have a husk so the mash and sparge process need to take this into consideration. (Use rice hulls to help the filtration process.)
Using un-malted grains changes the entire process. The malting process prepares the grain's enzymes for use in reducing starch to more fermentable sugars and breakdown other chemicals that cause off flavor (DMS) and haze (proteins). The standard infusion mash release beta amylase (140F to 149F) and alpha amylase (145F to 158F) and activate them to break down starch into sugar that yeast can ferment.
Using un-malted grains you will need to alter the mashing process to accommodate this. A protein rest 113F to 138F would be recomeneded. A beta rest and an alpha rest will be needed as well. A longer boil time will help with the breaking down other chemicals. There are several methods for mashing at various temperatures. A decoction mash for one, where you start the mash with a n infusion of water to achieve an protein rest and then extract sufficient grain/water and heat enough to add back and bring the rest of the mash to the next desired rest and then repeat. A second technique would be to use a cereal mash.
In a cereal mash you would start with an infusion of water to achieve a protein rest and then take water and oats and/or rice in a sufficient quantity, bring them to a boil for about 10 to 15 minutes in add them to the mash to achieve a temp of about 147 to 148 to achieve both the beta and alpha rest. Then use 90 to 120 minute boil.

At one time I did a lot of cereal mashing, it is especially effective when making a rich and creamy oatmeal stout.

 

[VikeMan]

Mostly debranching as well as breaking down gums, amino acid chains and proteins - not new processes but steps that are usually unnecessary or abbreviated with highly modified malts.

Okay, but what's the process? How would you make this happen? Where are the enzymes coming from in the unmalted grains?

 

[BrewerinBR]

the enzymes are present in the grain (malted or un-malted). the extended mashing process and extended multiple rests at appropriate temps will activate the enzymes. This will not be as effective as using malted grain but it would work.

 

[Jaybird]

how did you sparge it?

I would personally sparge it the same way I sparge a Corn Whiskey mash. A purpose built False Bottom and a Whirlpool Master paddle works like a charm..

Cheers
Jay

 

[bracconiere]

I would personally sparge it the same way I sparge a Corn Whiskey mash. A purpose built False Bottom and a Whirlpool Master paddle works like a charm..

Cheers
Jay

LOL, i'd use the false bottom for a double boiler in that case....

 

[Jaybird]

LOL, i'd use the false bottom for a double boiler in that case....

I'm a toss it all in kind of guy. But yeah that would work for sure.

Cheers
Jay

 

[VikeMan]

the enzymes are present in the grain (malted or un-malted). the extended mashing process and extended multiple rests at appropriate temps will activate the enzymes. This will not be as effective as using malted grain but it would work.

Unmalted barley contains very small amounts of Aplha Amylase at best. Germination is the signal to make more.

If you "mashed" unmalted barley by itself, most of the very meager amount of sugar you'd get would be from the small amount of sugar that was already present in the grain, not converted from starch in the "mash."

 

[bracconiere]

the enzymes are present in the grain (malted or un-malted). the extended mashing process and extended multiple rests at appropriate temps will activate the enzymes. This will not be as effective as using malted grain but it would work.

you would end up to long in the

 

[BrewerinBR]

Unmalted barley contains very small amounts of Aplha Amylase at best. Germination is the signal to make more.

If you "mashed" unmalted barley by itself, most of the very meager amount of sugar you'd get would be from the small amount of sugar that was already present in the grain, not converted from starch in the "mash."

I think if you could maintain temps long enough, you could convert some of the starch ... would malting it be a better choice? Yes of coarse. This is not something I would try, malted grains are readily available including wheat and rye. So making a beer entirely from wheat can be done ... same with rye. which was the original question.

 

[bracconiere]

I think if you could maintain temps long enough, you could convert some of the starch ... would malting it be a better choice? Yes of coarse. This is not something I would try, malted grains are readily available including wheat and rye. So making a beer entirely from wheat can be done ... same with rye. which was the original question.

"sour" dough wouldn't be a thing other wise.....

 

[VikeMan]

I think if you could maintain temps long enough, you could convert some of the starch ...

Yes, the little bit of enzymes could convert a little bit of starch. At a guess, at least an order of magnitude less conversion than with malted barley, because the enzymes will be used up long before the starch is.

 

[BrewerinBR]

Yes, the little bit of enzymes could convert a little bit of starch. At a guess, at least an order of magnitude less conversion than with malted barley, because the enzymes will be used up long before the starch is.

Indeed, this is why we use malted grains much more efficient.

 

[bracconiere]

yes you can brew a 100% beer with this...if we're trying to get back on topic....


https://www.morebeer.com/products/malt-viking-oat-lb-showroom.html
just keep in mind, you'll have to set the gap on your mill way tighter...

edit: and if you don't have your own mill...i doubt they'd do it for you! they'd just dump it in the bag next to their mill....or the equivalent....

 

[jerrylotto]

the enzymes are present in the grain (malted or un-malted). the extended mashing process and extended multiple rests at appropriate temps will activate the enzymes. This will not be as effective as using malted grain but it would work.

Thank for saying what I was TRYING to say!

 

[VikeMan]

the enzymes are present in the grain (malted or un-malted). the extended mashing process and extended multiple rests at appropriate temps will activate the enzymes. This will not be as effective as using malted grain but it would work.

Thank for saying what I was TRYING to say!

Just to be clear, this would not result in anything remotely close to full conversion (unless the "extended mashing process" included the actual malting process @AlexKay joked about), because unmalted barley does not contain the amounts of enzymes that malted barley does. But if you want a very weak Kvass-like beverage with lots of unconverted starches in it, Prost!

 

[Bobby_M]

It's weird how about half the posts in this thread are related to using unmalted grains and arguing if it's possible to get conversion. It's just not practical enough to spend this much energy in my opinion.

No you don't need barley.
Yes you can use any other cereal grains and about half of the total amount should be a malted variety if you want your life to be easy.

 

[grampamark]

“… because unmalted barley does not contain the amounts of enzymes that malted barley does.”

OK. My inner, insomniac, grain farmer has to respond to this statement made by @VikeMan.

Unmalted barley contains all of the enzymes which will be present in the malted barley (or wheat, rye, corn, rice, etc, etc, etc…) The malting process doesn’t create enzymes. It begins the process of germination, which makes the enzymes which are contained in the aleurone (the bran, or outer layer, of a wheat or rye kernel, or the hull, or husk, of a barley kernel) available to the endosperm, which is the starchy mass of cells which make up the bulk of a cereal grain kernel. Then, as soon as germination is established, malting short circuits the normal growth cycle of the grain by dehydrating the kernels to the point that plant growth stops, thus preserving the starches in the endosperm for conversion to fermentable sugars in the future.

In the field, the conversion process takes place very slowly, because the soil temperature is 100°F, or more, lower than normal mash temps. At the latitudes where most malt barley is produced the soil temp at planting time isn’t much above 40°F. That’s why the first leaf which comes through the soil doesn’t appear for more than a week after planting; sometimes, much later than that. But, conversion does take place, and the sugars thus produced feed the growing plant until a root system is established and the new, above ground, growth emerges. At that point, sunlight and rainfall (or irrigation), combined with the root system, provide the required moisture and nutrients to keep the plants growing to maturity.

So, in short, malting initiates the growth cycle, and does so more efficiently than nature by carefully controlling the conditions under which germination occurs. It then stops the growth as quickly as possible to preserve as much of the starches as possible before they can be converted. The process does not produce enzymes, it just puts the enzymes to work and then puts them to sleep so they can finish their work later.

 

[madscientist451]

Many brewers have made 100% Oat beer, so adding 50% wheat shouldn't be a problem, why not try it? Koyt, or Kuitbier, was brewed for centuries with Oats, Barley and Wheat, and at some point someone must have tried leaving out the barley:
https://www.fondazioneslowfood.com/en/ark-of-taste-slow-food/koyt-kuit-kuyt-beer/https://www.witteklavervier.nl/us/history/koyt-beer

 

[VikeMan]

Unmalted barley contains all of the enzymes which will be present in the malted barley (or wheat, rye, corn, rice, etc, etc, etc…) The malting process doesn’t create enzymes.

No sir, unmalted barley doesn't contain all the enzymes, and malting does create enzymes. Here are a few references. (Emphasis added.)

"The main objective of malting is to produce an ample supply of enzymes that degrade starch, proteins, and other components of grain."
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topic...tive of malting,and other components of grain.

"The seed of the barley and the embryo and aleurone layer are living. After the kernel absorbs water, gibberellin is excreted as a phytohormone from the germ. Furthermore, the signal of gibberellin leads to the production of enzymes, such as amylase, and to the synthesis of β‐glucanase to decompose starch."
https://www.intechopen.com/chapters/56077
"Enzymes are present in mature barley (Beta-amylase and carboxypetidases), finished malt (Alpha-amylase, limit dexrinase, proteases, glucanases, pentosanases) and yeast"
https://www.mbaa.com/districts/Ontario/Events/Documents/2014 MBAA Aleksandar Egi Malt Enzymes.pdf
“During malting, hydration of the kernel starts at the basal end. The embryo and husk absorb water more readily than the endosperm. As the embryo hydrates, it releases hormones (including gibberellins), which awaken the scutellum and aleurone layer, causing them to produce their own enzymes and begin breaking down the endosperm. This process of modification starts adjacent to the scutellum at the basal end and proceeds toward the distal end. As it reacts, the aleurone layer creates beta glucanases, protein proteases, alpha amylase, and glucoamylase.”
Malt, A Practical Guide from Field to Brewhouse, page 95. John Mallet, 2014

"The aleurone layer acts as a hotspot for enzyme synthesis during germination, when aleurone proteins are degraded and used to produce enzymes."
KU Leuven Certificate Course, Beer: The Science of Brewing, Module 2, Malt

"During steeping, water is taken up by barley kernels in three different phases:
PHASE 1: Water is taken up by the embryo and scutellum, initiating the production of amylases (mostly α- amylases), ribonucleases and phosphatases."
KU Leuven Certificate Course, Beer: The Science of Brewing, Module 2, Malt

 

[Bobby_M]

Now it's a matter of semantics. The moral of the story is that the malting process is what make the grain have diastatic power in the hands of the brewer. How it gets there is a very interesting topic but it's so far out of scope of the original question. It's like asking what the torque specs of a Chevy head bolt are and then arguing about how grade 8 bolts are manufactured.

 

[VikeMan]

Now it's a matter of semantics. The moral of the story is that the malting process is what make the grain have diastatic power in the hands of the brewer. How it gets there is a very interesting topic but it's so far out of scope of the original question. It's like asking what the torque specs of a Chevy head bolt are and then arguing about how grade 8 bolts are manufactured.

It certainly is off topic to the original question, but I disagree that it's a matter of semantics. To me, it's fundamental brewing knowledge. Once misleading statements are made (on topic or not), it's IMO everyone's duty to set the record straight. Otherwise, we end up with people thinking they can mash unmalted grains with an extra long mash (or something) and get the beer they're expecting. Had some things in this thread gone unchallenged, that's exactly what would have happened.

 

[bracconiere]

everyone's duty to set the record straight.

to be on-topic, or offtopic...? or just crack a joke about doodie..

@joeoberfoell what have you decided? are we going to get a report about your oat beer?

i don't think it was asked if you were thinking of trying 100% quaker oats or something? which wouldn't work...and i believe oats are gluten free, so yes a 100% oat beer would be GF? i think?

 

[The Mad Brewer]

to be on-topic, or offtopic...? or just crack a joke about doodie..

@joeoberfoell what have you decided? are we going to get a report about your oat beer?

i don't think it was asked if you were thinking of trying 100% quaker oats or something? which wouldn't work...and i believe oats are gluten free, so yes a 100% oat beer would be GF? i think?

This has opened up a whole new world for me, I feel like a Disney Princess.. I have a cream ale and Ipa in progress and only have 3 taps and have kegs in in all 3 right now so I need to get drinking to free up some room. But my spring runs are going to be some wheat and oat beers, using all wheat and or oats. Also thinking of trying a corn beer this summer. Also didnt know I could use Spelt, and the Amish stores around me always have Spelt, Wheat and Oat berrries.